We need to start with Abraham (Abram). For Abraham was given a covenant by God both before he was circumcised and before the law was given to Moses (Genesis 12). Thus a Jew was always a Jew by faith and not by circumcision. The promise in verse 3 of chapter 12 in Genesis states:

"…and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

In addition we see that Abraham was commanded to circumcise outsiders who were not of his physical descendants. Abraham also brought men into the covenant to fight for him and they were definitely not his children or grandchildren.

318 trained men who had been born into his household (Genesis 14:14). Now how were there 318 men who were not of his physical seed and also be in the household of God via Abraham?

Continuing on to Genesis 17:12-13 (ESV):

{12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bbought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.}

So in what sense are these non-physical seeds of Abraham blessed with the exact same blessing? For they are blessed in a sense from Abraham's full humanity and are apart of his household or the household of God. They also are blessed by the sign and seal of circumcision, which by St. Paul connects to baptism for the New Covenant in his letter to the Colossians.

COLOSSIANS 2:815 (ESV)

"In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism" (vv. 1112).

So you know that Gamaliel, St. Paul's Jewish mentor, had to have been pulling out his hair with such connections. For this is the wall of partition and the stumbling block to the Jew that St. Paul is defining for us. They just can't stand it and often refer to us as dogs. We are fire logs for the afterlife until they accept our gracious Messiah and what a Jew really is. For the Gospel is to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9-10 (ESV)

{9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.}

I know Zobe, myself, and one or two others have put down some of these verses beforehand. But I wanted to try to paint the big picture first.

To further our case that this is what God teaches us about what is a Jew and what is Israel, consider the following.
What if these verse were true?

Now before we interpret the original meaning of these verses, we ought to do what any scholar should do and that is find the original audience and context. St. Paul was writing to Christians in Rome, Galatia, Philippi, etc., and were Christians made up of both physical Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 2:28-29 (ESV)

{28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.}

Galatians 3:7-9 (ESV)

{7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify[a] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.}

Philippians 3:3 (ESV)

{3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh}

There is only one people of God that are made up of both Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus as the Messiah. And beforehand looked forward to the coming Messiah and were saved by grace through faith. The same way anyone can be saved and that is by grace through faith.

Israel is a people and more than just a piece of land promised that was needed for all the families on the earth to be blessed by the coming Messiah. Jacob was called Israel, for instance. Abraham and Moses never entered the physical land of Israel and received the same blessing of salvation. The land is pointing to something more than a place on earth to cram every physical claim to being a physical decedent of Abraham into… It would be rather a little crammed for my taste of the idea of heaven. Besides that…and I'm going off of my main point for a second. Bear with me. "The land flowing with milk and honey" that the 12 spies described the land as is not exactly that. Compared to the wilderness that they were living in it was. But maybe do a little research or talk to people who have visited the nation of Israel and find out. It's not even the best grazing, it isn't even the best soil for farming all kinds of crops.

"Israel is a major exporter of fresh produce and a world-leader in agricultural technologies despite the fact that the geography of the country is not naturally conducive to agriculture. More than half of the land area is desert, and the climate and lack of water resources do not favor farming."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Israel#:~:text=Israel%20is%20a%20major%20exporter,resources%20do%20not%20favor%20farming.

No one is claiming that the physical Jews aren't smart. They are a very performance based culture. Extraordinary. And I admire them because they really are our elder brother in the Prodigal Son parable of our Lord. It is written that we give honor to whom honor is do. We pray for their salvation.

More on who is Israel

Who are now the descendants of Abraham?

Romans 4:16 (ESV)

{16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspringnot only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,}

Again…we see that the decedents of Abraham are thus both Jew and Gentile.

When St. Paul traveled into Asia Minor (Greece, Turkey, etc),
he went to the synagogue to debate the scriptures with the religious leaders first concerning Jesus as the Messiah and what a Jew is by faith alone (to the Jew first and also to the Greek).

Galatians is said to have been St. Paul's first epistle. Probably written just before or after 50AD around the time of the counsel of Jerusalem which went over the same topics decided. And he never contradicts himself in other epistles.


Anyway...

Galatians 6:15-16 (ESV)

{15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.}

Here St. Paul connects what a Jew is by connecting it to what Israel actually is. And that is exactly the logical progression that I am following from the Hebrew Rabbinic tradition.

"The church is Israel, you may think or say? That's replacement theology." Hahah. Nope. It's fulfilled biblical covenant theology. Welcome to the team and we are glad to answer your questions.

So, Israel is made up of both Jew and Gentile believers established by both the Old Testament (the Hebrew Bible) and the New Testament.

Check this out.

Romans 9:6-7 (ESV)

Romans 9:6-7

{6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring,}

Not of Abraham's physical offspring…

Literally stated in the Greek, "Not all of Israel is Israel."

In verse 7, St. Paul goes onto qualify what Israel means and is still trying to complete his sentence from verse 6..

"… and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring,"

In other words, Israel is made up of both the physical-Jew and Gentile believers in Jesus the Messiah.

The Apostle Paul is building his case from Galatians and in Romans 9:6-7 that the Israel of God and not of the flesh is Israel in Romans chapter 11.

So we finally now can get to the logical flow of St. Paul's argument of non-contradiction.

Romans 11:25-27 (ESV)

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

To whom is the Romans letter addressed? Christians in Rome...both of Jewish and Gentile ancestry.

Who is Israel? Israel is made up of both physical-Jews and Gentiles and always has been.

The physical-Jews are a branch that has been cut off (Romans 11). But in the end both physical-Jews and Gentiles will come to faith as all the families of the earth shall be blessed. That is when all of Israel will be saved. That is, all of physical-Israel and the Gentile-Jew (the Gentile Israel) will reign in the end of this life and in the life to come.

For the household of God has always been about bringing into fruition the fulfillment of the New Covenant in Christ alone, through faith alone, by grace alone, in the scripture…and the historic community's conversation with it alone, and to the glory of God alone.


Warmly,

Joshua Wallace

Shalom Y'all

To Christians I say, Yeshua is your Jesus. And to Jews I say, Elohim has become your Yeshua(h).

There are definitely not two peoples of God.

We must stay in prayer. Physical Jews do not evangelize.
For in the nation state of Israel… evangelism is illegal. You can be put in jail or deported for it.

The sentiment that everyone not a physical-Jew are like dogs is a satanic heresy that has existed for a millennia.

Jesus told his fellow kindreds that the only sign they would get was the sign of Jonah.

This is found in Mark 12:38-42 (ESV).

{38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, "Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you." 39 But he answered them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.}

{40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. }

Remember that regenerated Jonah did not want to go to Nineveh. We know that they were a terrifying barbaric enemy of Israel.

And this reminds us of regenerated St. Peter and other physical-Jews did not want to eat with new Gentile-Jews (both Christians). This is found in the book of Acts. And fellow Apostle Paul had to correct Peter and others for their reverse anti-Semitic prejudice.

You can see that this is a huge problem that can't be fixed by the false assumption that Jews can be saved by the law and Christians are saved by grace through faith. That's absurd. That kind of an assumption is nowhere supported by the Scripture to which they say they hold dearly.

Moreover, trying to appeal to the flesh of the Jews flesh is not going to work. Especially when physical-Jews find out your version of what happens to them after the Gog and Magog war occurs.

TheGreatEscape said:

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There are definitely not two peoples of God.

---

Not sure what you mean by this. In the OT, Israel was "God's people", but you had other individuals such as Balaam and Namaan that were definitely people of God but not part of Israel. Israel was forbidden for a long time from attacking Edom due to God's promise to them. Does that make them a people of God? Not the mention that there were "the nations" or goyim that had no standing in the OT, such as Greece. Were the Greeks not God's people?

In the NT I think it's a bit easier in some ways and more complicated in others. First, everyone is God's. Every people is God's people. God is sovereign over all nations, tribes, populations and ethnicities. OTOH, Christians are God's people in a different and more direct way. From a Christian perspective, Jews are God's people in an ancient and anachronistic way. So you can say that all people are God's people, or you can divide it up in any number of ways.

You obviously didn't read the OP. Abraham brought in people who were not his physical descendants and 318 fighting men as well.

And we also have people who testified of the household of God being real. And I'm not certain that Nebuchadnezzar was actually ever apart of Israel/the church/the household of God/the covenant community…

Nebuchadnezzar says, "Truly your God is God of gods and Lord of kings, and a revealer of mysteries, for you have been able to reveal this mystery." (Daniel 2:47).


Then later in Daniel 4:2:

"he who was named Belteshazzar after the name of my god and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods"

King Neb of Babylon (mainly Iraq) was still a polytheist.

So we can debate these issues all we want with the Nebuchadnezzar types, but salvation is only found in grace through faith working itself out in love via the fruit of the Holy Spirit alone. We are people of the Torah, which is what all physical-Jews were once known for…

But I am in full agreement with the other two that you named. Thanks for adding to the case. It was never about the physical seed, although God still generally works through families.

"…and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

I wish I could tag Redstone on this post, he has a very special understanding of the Jewish people.

We really need to pray for the physical-Jews to be saved.

Ever since God's judgement upon them and the destruction of the temple in 70AD (as Christ prophesied in Matthew 24), our elder brother has gotten worse by interpreting the Hebrew Bible through the lenses of the Talmud.

TheGreatEscape said:

---

We really need to pray for the physical-Jews to be saved.

Ever since God's judgement upon them and the destruction of the temple in 70AD (as Christ prophesied in Matthew 24), our elder brother has gotten worse by interpreting the Hebrew Bible through the lenses of the Talmud.

---

Yes, I'm sure the Jews need Christians telling them some more how to REALLY read their holy scriptures. The Talmud, by the way, is a series of arguments and debates and interpretations. There's nothing doctrinal about the arguments made, they're intended to stretch the law and the Mishnah to the most uncomfortable areas to elucidate how lines of thinking may lead people.

Aware of that. But the Talmud is the physical-Jews' New Testament.

The Talmud has some good things in it and some bad things in it.


For the New Testament of Judie-Christianity continues the law and applies it for the Israel of God.

TheGreatEscape said:

---

Aware of that. But the Talmud is the physical-Jews' New Testament.

The Talmud has some good things in it and some bad things in it.


For the New Testament of Judie-Christianity continues the law and applies it for the Israel of God.

---

No it's not. The Talmud is not doctrinally authoritative, it's a series of commentaries based on oral traditions and later critiques and interpretations of the Tanakh and Mishnah. It's closer to legal commentary and case law than to the New Testament.

{In Orthodox Judaism, therefore, both the Written Law (Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament) and the Oral Law (codified in the Mishna and interpreted in the Talmud) are immutably fixed and remain the sole norm of religious observance.}

Orthodox Judaism is the largest form of Judaism.

"One clause in the Jerusalem Talmud asserts that anything which a veteran disciple shall teach was already given at Sinai; and a story in the Babylonian Talmud claims that upon seeing the immensely intricate deduction of future Rabbi Akiva in a vision, Moses himself was at loss, until Akiva proclaimed that everything he teaches was handed over to Moses. The Written and Oral Torah are believed to be intertwined and mutually reliant, for the latter is a source to many of the divine commandments, and the text of the Pentateuch is seen as incomprehensible in itself. God's will may only be surmised by appealing to the Oral Torah revealing the text's allegorical, anagogical, or tropological meaning, not by literalist reading.

Lacunae in received tradition or disagreements between early sages are attributed to disruptions, especially persecutions which caused to that "the Torah was forgotten in Israel" according to rabbinic lore, these eventually compelled the legists to write down the Oral Law in the Mishna and Talmud. Yet, the wholeness of the original divine message, and the reliability of those who transmitted it through the ages, are axiomatic. One of the primary intellectual exercises of Torah scholars is to locate discrepancies between Talmudic or other passages and then demonstrate by complex logical steps (presumably proving each passage referred to a slightly different situation etc.) that there is actually no contradiction.[38] Like other traditional, non-liberal religions, Orthodox Judaism considers revelation as propositional, explicit, verbal and unambiguous, that may serve as a firm source of authority for a set of religious commandments. Modernist understandings of revelation as a subjective, humanly-conditioned experience are rejected by the Orthodox mainstream,[39] though some thinkers at the end of the liberal wing did try to promote such views, finding virtually no acceptance from the establishment.[40]}

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Judaism#:~:text=It%20is%20the%20largest%20Jewish,equal%20number%20of%20nominal%20members.


{Reform Judaism sets itself at variance with Orthodox Judaism by challenging the binding force of ritual, laws, and customs set down in the Bible and in certain books of rabbinic origin (e.g., the Talmud)."

Orthodox Judaism has gone astray from 2nd Temple Judaism, but Reform Judaism is a completely different religion.

Reform Judaism is the second largest form of physical-Judaism.

"The basic tenet of Reform theology is a belief in a continuous, or progressive, revelation,[12][13] occurring continuously and not limited to the theophany at Sinai, the defining event in traditional interpretation.[citation needed] According to this view, all holy scripture of Judaism, including the Torah, were authored by human beings who, although under divine inspiration, inserted their understanding and reflected the spirit of their consecutive ages. All the People of Israel are a further link in the chain of revelation, capable of reaching new insights: religion can be renewed without necessarily being dependent on past conventions. The chief promulgator of this concept was Abraham Geiger, generally considered the founder of the movement. After critical research led him to regard scripture as a human creation, bearing the marks of historical circumstances, he abandoned the belief in the unbroken perpetuity of tradition derived from Sinai and gradually replaced it with the idea of progressive revelation.

As in other liberal denominations, this notion offered a conceptual framework for reconciling the acceptance of critical research with the maintenance of a belief in some form of divine communication, thus preventing a rupture among those who could no longer accept a literal understanding of revelation. No less importantly, it provided the clergy with a rationale for adapting, changing and excising traditional mores and bypassing the accepted conventions of Jewish Law, rooted in the orthodox concept of the explicit transmission of both scripture and its oral interpretation. While also subject to change and new understanding, the basic premise of progressive revelation endures in Reform thought.[4][14]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism

And of course as you know, the oral tradition is what makes up the Talmud.

And the Talmud was put into writing supposedly from an unbroken chain of oral tradition after 70AD and the destruction of the temple. How much of the Talmud is actually accurate? Who knows? Many Jews died in the invasion of the Romans. That's a lot of content to get accurately communicated from all of the contributors of the oral tradition. Not only am I against any oral tradition being on the same par as the Hebrew Bible in regards to revelation, I'm also skeptical that the oral tradition was fully intact and not just an attempt to quickly fix things after the temple sacrifices were completely removed from their law and worship.

TheGreatEscape said:

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We need to start with Abraham (Abram). For Abraham was elect by God both before he was circumcised and before the law was given to Moses (Genesis 12). Thus a Jew was always a Jew by faith and not by circumcision. The promise in verse 3 of chapter 12 in Genesis states:

"…and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

In addition we see that Abraham was commanded to circumcise outsiders who were not of his physical descendants. Abraham also brought men into the covenant to fight for him and they were definitely not his children or grandchildren.

318 trained men who had been born into his household (Genesis 14:14). Now how were there 318 men who were his physical seed and also be in the household of God via Abraham?

Continuing on to Genesis 17:12-13 (ESV):

{12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bbought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.}

So in what sense are these non-physical seeds of Abraham blessed with the exact same blessing? For they are blessed in a sense from Abraham's full humanity and are apart of his household or the household of God. They also are blessed by the sign and seal of circumcision, which by St. Paul connects to baptism for the New Covenant in his letter to the Colossians.

COLOSSIANS 2:815 (ESV)

"In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism" (vv. 1112).

So you know that Gamaliel, St. Paul's Jewish mentor, had to have been pulling out his hair with such connections. For this is the wall of partition and the stumbling block to the Jew that St. Paul is defining for us. They just can't stand it and often refer to us as dogs. We are fire logs for the afterlife until they accept our gracious Messiah and what a Jew really is. For the Gospel is to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9-10 (ESV)

{9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.}

I know Zobe, myself, and one or two others have put down some of these verses beforehand. But I wanted to try to paint the big picture first.

To further our case that this is what God teaches us about what is a Jew and what is Israel, consider the following.
What if these verse were true?

Now before we interpret the original meaning of these verses, we ought to do what any scholar should do and that is find the original audience and context. St. Paul was writing to Christians in Rome, Galatia, Philippi, etc., and were Christians made up of both physical Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 2:28-29 (ESV)

{28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.}

Galatians 3:7-9 (ESV)

{7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify[a] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.}

Philippians 3:3 (ESV)

{3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh}

There is only one people of God that are made up of both Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus as the Messiah. And beforehand looked forward to the coming Messiah and were saved by grace through faith. The same way anyone can be saved and that is by grace through faith.

Israel is a people and more than just a piece of land promised that was needed for all the families on the earth to be blessed by the coming Messiah. Jacob was called Israel, for instance. Abraham and Moses never entered the physical land of Israel and received the same blessing of salvation. The land is pointing to something more than a place on earth to cram every physical claim to being a physical decedent of Abraham into… It would be rather a little crammed for my taste of the idea of heaven. Besides that…and I'm going off of my main point for a second. Bear with me. "The land flowing with milk and honey" that the 12 spies described the land as is not exactly that. Compared to the wilderness that they were living in it was. But maybe do a little research or talk to people who have visited the nation of Israel and find out. It's not even the best grazing, it isn't even the best soil for farming all kinds of crops.

"Israel is a major exporter of fresh produce and a world-leader in agricultural technologies despite the fact that the geography of the country is not naturally conducive to agriculture. More than half of the land area is desert, and the climate and lack of water resources do not favor farming."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Israel#:~:text=Israel%20is%20a%20major%20exporter,resources%20do%20not%20favor%20farming.

No one is claiming that the physical Jews aren't smart. They are a very performance based culture. Extraordinary. And I admire them because they really are our elder brother in the Prodigal Son parable of our Lord. It is written that we give honor to whom honor is do. We pray for their salvation.

More on who is Israel

Who are now the descendants of Abraham?

Romans 4:16 (ESV)

{16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspringnot only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,}

Again…we see that the decedents of Abraham are thus both Jew and Gentile.

When St. Paul traveled into Asia Minor (Greece, Turkey, etc),
he went to the synagogue to debate the scriptures with the religious leaders first concerning Jesus as the Messiah and what a Jew is by faith alone (to the Jew first and also to the Greek).

Galatians is said to have been St. Paul's first epistle. Probably written just before or after 50AD around the time of the counsel of Jerusalem which went over the same topics decided. And he never contradicts himself in other epistles.


Anyway...

Galatians 6:15-16 (ESV)

{15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.}

Here St. Paul connects what a Jew is by connecting it to what Israel actually is. And that is exactly the logical progression that I am following from the Hebrew Rabbinic tradition.

"The church is Israel, you may think or say? That's replacement theology." Hahah. Nope. It's fulfilled biblical covenant theology. Welcome to the team and we are glad to answer your questions.

So Israel is made up of both Jew and Gentile believers established by both the Old Testament (the Hebrew Bible) and the New Testament.

Check this out.

Romans 9:6-7 (ESV)

Romans 9:6-7

{6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring,}

Literally stated in the Greek, "Not all of Israel is Israel."

In verse 7, St. Paul goes onto qualify what Israel means and is still trying to complete his sentence from verse 6..

"… and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring,"

In other words, Israel is made up of both the physical-Jew and Gentile believers in Jesus the Messiah.

The Apostle Paul is building his case from Galatians and in Romans 9:6-7 that the Israel of God and not of the flesh is Israel in Romans chapter 11.

So we finally now can get to the logical flow of St. Paul's argument of non-contradiction.

Romans 11:25-27 (ESV)

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

To whom is the Romans letter addressed? Christians in Rome...both of Jewish and Gentile ancestry.

Who is Israel? Israel is made up of both physical-Jews and Gentiles and always has been.

The physical-Jews are a branch that has been cut off (Romans 11). But in the end both physical-Jews and Gentiles will come to faith as all the families of the earth shall be blessed. That is when all of Israel will be saved. That is, all of physical-Israel and the Gentile-Jew (the Gentile Israel) will reign in the end of this life and in the life to come.

For the household of God has always been about bringing into fruition the fulfillment of the New Covenant in Christ alone, through faith alone, by grace alone, in the scripture…and the historic community's conversation with it alone, and to the glory of God alone.

Side point, scripture alone never meant nude scripture for Christ promised us teachers to consider and check by going Ad Hoc to the scriptures as the final authority and resting place for the soul.

Side topic…but J.I. Packer stated, "Sola Scriptura never meant Nuda Scriptura."

Well…this is the new NPR saying, "All things considered".

Warmly,

Joshua Wallace

---

Well if Israel did not mean Israel would it not have been better to pick the correct word? When you have to go from verse to verse to verse to arrive at the destination you want it seems pretty suspect.

I mean if I was writing something to be communicated through the ages and I mean Israel I would say Israel. If I meant the Jews I would say the Jews. If I meant believers in Christ I would say so.

I am pretty sure God knows this. He gave us his word so we could understand.

I love it when a Christian decides what is and isn't real Judaism. Couple things: the largest group of religious Jews in the world are Masorti (Conservative in the US), which can range from close to Reform to modern Orthodox but with mixed gender seating.

The Talmud is a compilation of the Mishnah, the Gemara, and then various commentaries. Almost all of the antisemitic snippets of Talmud you see are from the commentaries which are, by design, theoretical digressions on the Mishnah and Gemara. The existence of an oral tradition is something that goes back to the 2nd Temple period. The Sadducees, who controlled the Temple and the courts, believed in a much more strict interpretation of the printed Tanakh while the Pharisees believed in an oral tradition of interpretation of the text. So, no, the Mishnah was not some last-second creation. The commentaries, however, do deal directly with the loss of the Temple and the land.

First, I want to thank you for your interaction and participation.

The nation state of Israel served a purpose in establishing revelation given to all people groups. The book of Hebrews goes over this that the sacrificial system were apart of the types and shadows of things solidified in Christ's once and for all sacrifice.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (ESV)

{1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.}

And of course, we know that nation of Israel was the scaffolding that provided for the line of King David to be established in Christ Jesus.

But the foundation was the law and the prophets. See here:

Ephesians 2:19-20 (ESV) A circulated letter among the churches…

{19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.}


Hopefully that clears up some of your questions. Notice the Apostle doesn't state that the nation of Israel was the foundation. The Apostle states that the law and the prophets are.

For the law and the prophets were before the nation state of Israel. And most of the prophets prophesied that God would destroy the nation of Israel like the Assyrians and the Babylonians, for instance. And the Hebrew people had to endure exile into Babylon and the destruction of the first temple.

The other thing to think about is this. Jesus prophesied to that generation that he was speaking to in Matthew 24 that the temple would be destroyed. It actually did happen in 70AD. Jesus was probably 30-33 years old when he stated that. So I'll let you do the general math.

Why would it be God's revealed will then for the temple to rebuilt? Isn't Christ said to be the temple? Are we not temples of the Holy Spirit?

Wouldn't it be sacrilegious to even hope for the temple to be rebuilt in 19th century Dispensational eschatology? For that would not even be supported by any scripture or prophecy.

Lastly, you state that I'm going line by line and precept by precept. That's exactly what we are commanded to do.
And it would be great if you could actually use scripture to interpret the scripture that I have presented in the OP in order to make a critique or question the word of God presented unto you.


Ephesians 1:18 (ESV)

{18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints}

Please graciously considering interacting with the texts and commentary of the OP before you make outlandish statements.

You are one of us. No matter if you are not able to grasp these things yet. We are all growing up in the household of God.

1 Peter 2:9 (ESV)

{9 But you are a chosen RACE, a royal priesthood, a holy NATION, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light}

Took me awhile to receive all of this because it was presented in bits and pieces. So, I understand if this is new for you to prayerfully consider God's consistent redemptive historical plan revealed to us by means of our supreme authority, namely, the Scriptures.

More on this redemptive historical plan because the wheat grow with the tares (weeds) in God's household or church.

For it was both true before the coming accomplishment of Christ Jesus and is true for today.

Here is the corporate election of true Jews.

1 Corinthians 10:1-6 (ESV)

{1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers,[a] that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the SAME spiritual food, 4 and all drank the SAME spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things took place as EXAMPLES for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. }

And what is St. Paul's main sin that he was concerned about after these verses in 1 Corinthians 10? Sexual sins. Something our culture is engulfed in…

St. Paul is very pastoral in his approach in using these words in order that we may not be ignorant and know what the church is. For it is both invisible and external.

For righteousness is also both internal via Christ plus nothing and external as it works itself out in our daily lives as we cling to the cross and resurrection power that even gives this "life of ours"…repentant obedience now in our mortal bodies (Romans 8).

And maybe science is correct about the European blood found in the physical-Jews in Israel? I don't know.

I think I may have some Hebrew blood in me as the Judeo-Christians heeded the prophecy of Christ of 70AD and got out of the nation state of Israel and carried the Gospel into different communities all over Europe.


Shalom…all ethnic Jews and all people groups.

Come Lord Jesus.

Details here:
- https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3166505
- https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3413229
- https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3105186
- https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3266062

(Last link most concise thread)

Christianity is older than Judaism.

Reason is 70 AD, when Titus decimated The Temple.

The large umbrella term "Jew" - AFTER 70 - was radically re-defined, by horrifically violent necessity.

Exactly as Christ predicted.



The large and diverse term "Judaism" AFTER 70 when Titus smashed the Temple has as its ONLY unifying definition rejection of the Nazarene.

Therefore, Christianity is older than Judaism because the Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox) faith is the fulfillment of the Mosaic covenant, and the term was radically re-constructed out of grave necessity as Jerusalem lay in total ruin.

Who agrees with this?

The Catholics, the Orthodox, Israeli scholars such as Shlomo Sand, many atheists including many founding mothers and fathers of Israel (read Sand and Alan Dershowitz "The Vanishing American Jew"), as well as the Israel Supreme Court (read about the Oswald Rufeisen case).

Now, after 70

Who has the Temple?
(Body)

Who has the Ark?
(Mary)

Who has the Sacrifice?
(Mass)

Who has the manna?
(Eucharist)

Who has circumcised?
(Baptism, the heart)

Who has the priesthood?

The Apostolic - Catholic and Orthodox

Who are the people Israel?
Those that worship Logos, the Reason and Order of all creation.

Jesus Christ, King of Kings

Israeli academic Shlomo Sand, his book The Invention of the Jewish People

MANY details of the massive change, from a non-Christian, of 70 AD to now. Gigantic changes

For example -

Jewish kingdoms in Yemen, across North Africa, in Pontus, in Western Europe……
Many converts, and many forced, from the 2nd to the 7th Century….

It's true!!!

Norman Lear was one of the most prominent Jews of the 20th Century. Hugely influential.

He led a group of "Malibu Jews" (their words), formally incorporated as a club.

He converted to Christianity at 100 years old. Lear died a Christian.

The term "Jew" is negative, in its best understood form, even as the term is large and hard to positively define.

Logos / anti-Logos

Christ or Barabbas

The foot of the Cross is the dividing line

THEOLOGY, NOT "RACE"
70AD

Here is the best way to think through this difficult subject.

Semitic?

My Christian grandmother from Aleppo was a Semite.

She spoke a Semitic language.

I REJECT THE RACIAL INVENTION OF THIS TERM BY WILHELM MARR IN 1879.

Redstone,

Thank you for your perspective and points in which we absolutely share in common.

Christ is Risen!

Czechoslovakian and Austrian blood as well I have…

Just a side note:

Interesting that the physical-Hebrews only make up around 1% of the world population. And they make up around 2% of the US population.

Genesis 1:28 (ESV)

" And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it"

How are our elder brothers being fruitful and multiplying and fulfilling this command?

I would say that our elder brothers are definitely sub during the earth. For they are a very high performance culture.

Respectfully disagree that Jews are the "elder brothers" of anyone, and definitely not of Christians.

Sadly, one of the many bitter fruits of Vatican II is confused language around such topics. Rather muddled, with a lot of arguments, mostly due to a refusal to define terms.

The reason is that "Jews" post-70, as detailed above and confirmed genetically by David Reich of Harvard (up to about a thousand years ago, that is…..)

can and do develop genetic markers, as all self-selected groups do, slightly in-breeding over generations in relative isolation……BUT WE CAN'T TRACE TO THE LEVANT OF 2,000 YEARS AGO
Instead
Mass conversions, diverse mass migrations - beginning about 1,400 years ago, in different regions
BASED ON THEOLOGY / ANTI-THEOLOGY - developed in opposition to Christianity…

Even as whole pre-70 Jewish groups went wholesale into "The Way," such as the Essenes

Christianity is the elder brother, rabbinic Judaism was formed in opposition

I believe that ethnic Hebrews are under the Covenant of Hagar…oddly enough

There is one convenant after Jesus. The holy blood sacrifice of the Pascal Lamb, the Eucharist, instituted in 33 AD -

one of the last years that lambs were driven into the Temple that Titus was soon to completely destroy

We can genetically trace Jews throughout the diaspora to the Levant. Quite easily and done repeatedly. As has been shown in past threads on this topic. Also, there's zero evidence that the Essenes converted. Their beliefs don't mesh well with Christianity and they died out after the failed uprising that led to the destruction of the Temple.