Who is a Jew?

3,109 Views | 31 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Redstone
Teslag
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AG
Big eruption on politics right now regarding ethnic Jews. Basically, I'm an ethnic Jew, my great grandmother was a German Jew who married a German catholic. She was religiously and culturally a Jew but my grandmother was less so. Then my mother was basically raised Christian by a Christian grandfather. I was raised with no Jewish tradition whasever and only randomly heard here and there about my great Grandmother being Jewish. However, by Jewish law I'm a Jew which honestly I've always thought was strange but it is what it is especially since I belong to the Methodist church. I've since visited a local temple several times and in discussions with the rabbi there I would not need conversion since I am already Jewish. He seemed to have no reservations whatsoever. He is reform Jew by the way.

I guess the point is, do you consider being a Jew to be more religious than ethnic?
AGC
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AG
Complex question. I have a relative who converted to reformed Judaism and goes to Torah study, etc. They consider themselves Jewish but it's all a very different Judaism than what existed before the temple was destroyed. The rabbi of a synagogue in town who is also reformed gets asked regularly when talking at schools if he actually believes in God. My perception is that it's cultural for the reformed strain: they encourage questions and various viewpoints but integrate contemporary issues as they desire (such as the orange for the Seder meal) instead of treating it as a faith unchanging once delivered for all.
Teslag
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AG
That's a decent point and the belief in God is a valid question. I had a couple of Jewish friends in college. Observed all traditions and practices however both were atheist.
AGC
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AG
Salute The Marines said:

That's a decent point and the belief in God is a valid question. I had a couple of Jewish friends in college. Observed all traditions and practices however both were atheist.


So they were probably reformed. The orthodox I'd say integrate the two very strongly. Those are the ones in New York that have lines in their neighborhood they can't cross on the sabbath.

It's also murky in Israel. Buildings set elevators to run automatically on the sabbath for tourists and such but a lot do not practice the same level of beliefs.
Martin Q. Blank
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Salute The Marines said:

I guess the point is, do you consider being a Jew to be more religious than ethnic?
There's a long thread on this topic just below yours.

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3242460

In your case, it really doesn't matter. Religiously, you're a Christian. Ethnically, you're a mutt like most Americans.
Teslag
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AG
That is incorrect. Ethnically I'm a Jew. If my father or moms grandfather were Jewish I wouldn't be from how it was explained to me by the rabbi.
Martin Q. Blank
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Salute The Marines said:

That is incorrect. Ethnically I'm a Jew. If my father or moms grandfather were Jewish I wouldn't be from how it was explained to me by the rabbi.
Yes, rabbis are very good at making up rules. See the example above regarding the wire strung up all around New York.

You're still a mutt. I don't buy into the "one drop" rule.
Teslag
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AG
It's not a made up rule though. Jewish law is pretty clear on matrilineal descent.
Martin Q. Blank
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Salute The Marines said:

It's not a made up rule though. Jewish law is pretty clear on matrilineal descent.
Great. Why are you honing in on this one great grandmother of yours to define your ethnicity?
Teslag
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AG
Because that's where the matrilineal line comes from. Duh.
nortex97
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Salute The Marines said:

It's not a made up rule though. Jewish law is pretty clear on matrilineal descent.
Great. Why are you honing in on this one great grandmother of yours to define your ethnicity?
Trying to pick an argument, of course.

No one cares how you define your ethnicity, OP. Seriously, none.
Martin Q. Blank
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Salute The Marines said:

Because that's where the matrilineal line comes from. Duh.
I understand a Jewish rabbi has told you that your ethnicity is Jewish because of your matrilineal line. Do you buy into that? Why?

As you said, you weren't raised Jewish at all. Are you wanting to start? Win At Life can get you a starter kit.
Teslag
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AG
Honestly I've considered it, hence going to temple. I do buy into it since it appears to be clear across virtually all Jewish denominations.
AGC
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Salute The Marines said:

Honestly I've considered it, hence going to temple. I do buy into it since it appears to be clear across virtually all Jewish denominations.


Why would your heritage inform your faith?
Teslag
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AG
I would remain Christian
AGC
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AG
Salute The Marines said:

I would remain Christian


In that case I wouldn't mention it as a general rule. It may be a fact about you but that's different than being a formative element. Fun ice breaking thing but with lots of potential to turn into a victim card.
one MEEN Ag
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Salute The Marines said:

I would remain Christian
Then I think you would find a messianic jewish (church? synagogue?) a potentially good community fit. On paper, at least, they identify that Christ is the Messiah while also retaining their Jewish practices. Their history is wrapped up in being seen as too christian by jews, and too jewish by christians.

Caveat: I have never been to a messianic jewish service, just know a fellow christian who was raised messianic jewish by two very devout missionary parents.

Best of luck as you sort through this. I hope this endeavor gives you peace instead of an identity crisis though. Your identity is in Christ, not your blood line. The Lord made a nation for himself through Abraham, but has completed His work through Christ to have grafts from all nations, tribes, and tongues.

I would think it would be hard to join a jewish synagogue while believing Christ is a hypostasis of God. Rabbinic Judiasm did a number on their beliefs. It is an interpretation born out of rejecting Christ. Modern Jewish rabbanical practices like to say things like, 'God doesn't have a body' and has a hard time explaining who the Angel of the Lord is, (who lead them out of Egypt and was with them for nearly 90 years), YHWH visiting Gideon in person, Jacob wrestling with YHWH, and other instances of a pre-incarnate, human version of YHWH interacting with Jews early on.
Jabin
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Out of curiosity, why focus exclusively on the one great-grandmother who was Jewish and ignore the 3 who weren't? Why does their ethnicity not count?
UTExan
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Salute The Marines said:

Big eruption on politics right now regarding ethnic Jews. Basically, I'm an ethnic Jew, my great grandmother was a German Jew who married a German catholic. She was religiously and culturally a Jew but my grandmother was less so. Then my mother was basically raised Christian by a Christian grandfather. I was raised with no Jewish tradition whasever and only randomly heard here and there about my great Grandmother being Jewish. However, by Jewish law I'm a Jew which honestly I've always thought was strange but it is what it is especially since I belong to the Methodist church. I've since visited a local temple several times and in discussions with the rabbi there I would not need conversion since I am already Jewish. He seemed to have no reservations whatsoever. He is reform Jew by the way.

I guess the point is, do you consider being a Jew to be more religious than ethnic?


Both. You could check all the boxes as a Messianic Jew.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
craigernaught
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AG
If you say you're Jewish, the rabbi says you're Jewish, and your ancestry says you're Jewish (or part Jewish anyway), then you're Jewish. Who cares what anyone else says? When it comes to ethnicity, just like many modern Jews, you can be more than one thing.

The word for ethnically Jewish and not Jewish by faith is just "Jewish".

The importance of that depends on you.
I Sold DeSantis Lifts
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All you need to know is that Sammy Davis Jr was a Jew.
TXaggiesTX
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AG
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
Romans 2:28-29 KJV
Zobel
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Being Jewish is identification / belonging with a people group. The whole idea of being able to separate a people group's way of life, faith, culture, ethnicity into separate boxes is pretty recent. Until recently in history (like the past two or three centuries) Jews did not speak of Judaism as a faith at all. Judaism has been resistant to being categorized as either a faith or an ethnicity. In a way, they've retained the more ancient view of both / neither depending on how you're trying to draw the lines.

From a scriptural perspective an Israelite is one who eats the Passover, which is a symbolic culmination of keeping the Torah (nomos, way of life) and includes being circumcised as a male. This is why St Paul has St Timothy circumcised - he was a person who should have been as an ethnic Jew on his mother's side but was outside of the keeping of the Torah. Thus St Paul can say that not all who are of Israel are Israel.

Christians in the ancient way (still carried over and taught by most small-o orthodox denominations) are identified with Israel in the same way, grafted in - by eating the Passover, eucharist, and being circumcised in baptism, as is taught by St Paul, keeping the commandments (nomos, way of life) of Christ. So, he can say to gentile Christians that "our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea."

The distinction between Jew and Christian forms around the same time as the idea of a religion separate from people group or ethnicity, and also forms as a product of heterodoxy vs orthodoxy vs heresy. This happened for a lot of reasons, but one was because Christianity had a novel form that rejected the ethnic, cultural, and religious oneness instead saying anyone from any tribe or nation could be Christian, and by being Christian you became a new people without becoming Jewish. Both Judaism and Christianity actively sought to identify themselves in contrast with the other. Christianity coalesced around orthodoxy vs heresy - and Judaism to some extent did the same, but did not or could not completely find identity in religion alone. Judaism retained the people and ethnicity aspect that it always had.

So the answer to your OP about whether being Jewish is religious or ethnic is both, neither, and all of the above.
nortex97
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AG
Good post, and I don't know about that whole history/context vs. Christianity, but it is mostly true, imho. The individualism/freedom inherent in Christ's message/Christianity is definitely a break vs. the normative nearby pagan religions of Roman times, but there have of course been threads of other Semitic religions that sought to create converts of other tribes/cultures over time, not just jewish ones (ahem, later mohammedists/muslims come to mind). Here's a decent piece from a few years ago discussing it, mostly from a Jewish American perspective:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/12/19/is-judaism-an-ethnicity-race-nationality-trump-signs-an-order-provokes-an-identity-crisis/

Genetic identification regarding those from the ancient 'people of Israel' is necessarily complex; I believe, but might be wrong, that a majority of 'white' German American jews are descended from what are/were called the Ashkenazi Jewish group, but it is difficult for most to really categorize jews as a group. The history of a people/group that is over 9000 years old, or rather parts of it is, as a family tree is necessarily complex up to and including the present day. Mizrahi jewish history is fascinating to me, in particular.

https://www.yourdnaguide.com/ydgblog/2019/6/18/jewish-ethnicity-and-dna
agpetz
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Salute The Marines said:

That is incorrect. Ethnically I'm a Jew. If my father or moms grandfather were Jewish I wouldn't be from how it was explained to me by the rabbi.
Then why did you start this thread and ask the question?
Redstone
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My view is here:
https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3166505

Summary:
The large and diverse term "Judaism" AFTER 70 when Titus smashed the Temple has as its ONLY unifying definition rejection of the Nazarene.

Therefore, Christianity is older than Judaism because the Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox) faith is the fulfillment of the Mosaic covenant, and the term was radically re-constructed out of grave necessity as Jerusalem lay in total ruin.

Who agrees with this?

The Catholics, the Orthodox, Israeli scholars such as Shlomo Sand, many atheists including many founding mothers and fathers of Israel (read Sand and Alan Dershowitz "The Vanishing American Jew"), as well as the Israel Supreme Court (read about the Oswald Rufeisen case).
Catag94
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Galatians 3:28 NASB
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Win At Life
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Salute The Marines said:

That is incorrect. Ethnically I'm a Jew. If my father or moms grandfather were Jewish I wouldn't be from how it was explained to me by the rabbi.
Actually, that does not make you near enough of a Jew to be allowed the Law of Return (Aliyah) to Israel. But that's a pretty high standard, and I'm certain many other Jews and rabbis will indeed consider you a Jew. I'm aware of many Hispanics who find traces of Jewish ancestry in their DNA (not surprising given Sephardic Jews) and feel a strong connection with Jewish people. A separation of Gentiles from Jewish Synagogues started by Gentiles, themselves, around the time of the first Jewish war with Rome in 67AD. Gentiles could avoid getting swept up in Jewish persecution by staying away from their synagogues. This waxed and waned well past 70AD, however. It wasn't until the failed Jewish Bar Kokhba in 135AD that Jews kicked all believers in Yeshua (both Jews and Gentiles) out of their synagogues. You could be a follower of Hillel and stay in the Synagogue. You could disagree with Hillel and be a follower of Shammai and remain. But you couldn't be a follower of Yeshua and remain after that. And all this points to the difficulty of answering the question of "Who is a Jew"

For me, the most definitive answer on that is what God says through His scripture. Galatians 3:28 indeed says there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Yeshua HaMashiach. But by saying there is neither male of female, certainly Paul does not mean the gender fluid, wokeness definition of today. He actually gives different instructions for women than men. And he gives different instructions to slaves. How can that be if they are all the same? He certainly doesn't mean there is no genetic difference between Jews and Greeks, otherwise he wouldn't even be able to references Jews as being Jews or Greeks and being Greeks. No. It's clear from the context that the "sameness" we are is in regards to salvation. And that we all have the same inheritance to the same promises. How do we share in that inheritance? Paul tells us in the very next verse, which quoters of Galatians 3:28 diligently avoid.

Galatians 3:29 "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants…"

By saying this, Paul is certainly not calling us Edomites, but Jews, or better, Hebrews. In the 1st century, these were basically synonymous. That is, IF you are SAVED, they you ARE a JEW. Paul tells us this same thing several times in scripture just to make sure the point is not missed. Gentiles, who were once strangers and aliens, are now "fellow citizens" (Eph 2:19), adopted a Yeshua's sons (Rom 8:15) (Eph 1:5). Gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree of Israel (Rom 11:17), who's root is Yeshua; a Jew born to a Jewish mother and a Jewish father, circumcised on the 8th days according to God's instructions. Yeshua's gospel was not one of abolishing God's instructions (Mat 5:17), but he kept them perfectly; abolishing the bad doctrine of 1st century Judaism. He taught us to keep all the Torah properly (Mat 23:23) and not to teach abolishing even the least of the commandments (Mat 5:19). Anyone how lives this this way will LOOK Jewish, hearing the Torah of Moses in the synagogues on the Sabbath (Acts 15:21) and desiring to keep His commandments out of love for Yeshua (John 14:15). But we don't just LOOK Jewish, if we are SAVED, then we ARE Jewish. Hallelu'YAH!.

Shalom

These Things You Should Have Done

Kvetch
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AG
The matrilineal rule is not really a legitimate one. Someone who has a Jewish father and gentile mother is just as much a Jew as the opposite situation. Study the origins of that rule and you'll understand how it came to be and why it's not really legitimate.
Redstone
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I again suggest reading about the Oswald Rufeisen case. Then, think: what did Ivanka Trump do to convert? Then, consider: does the top geneticist in the world, David Reich of Harvard, believe that "Jewish ancestry" can be traced further than about 900 years? (Answer: NO)

My generalization just above is fully accurate.
nortex97
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I think it's a somewhat false generalization to say that Reich's belief is jewish people's ancestry can only go back that far. He's certainly tracked some to sub-saharan populations around 2000 years ago. Not sure, but I would guess a 'complete' image of where one's ancestors lived more than 900 or so years ago is pretty tough, outside of some pretty isolated peoples (which Jews obviously are not).
Redstone
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I refer specifically to his statements at a conference a few years ago. This topic is important (meaning, by far best definition of Jewish is ethnic - religious and NOT racial), therefore I will follow up with a written reference.
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