Who is Israel?

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Zobel
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AG
This topic seems to come up a lot. This post is more or less taken directly from "The Religion of the Apostles" by Fr Stephen De Young. Great book, by the way.

The word Church is the English translation of the German translation of the Greek word ekklesia, meaning assembly (you'll recognize iglesia in Spanish borrows it directly from Greek). Its the word used in the Greek old testament to describe the assembly of Israel, God's people. In the New Testament this same word continues to be used to describe God's people, Israel restored. The Church did not replace Israel, is not the new Israel. It is Israel, in continuity - the assembled people of God. And it isn't that Israel stopped being something determined by ethnicity, it's that Israel was never about ethnicity and for only a brief period of time was it about a nation-state.

After Babel the Most High God assigned the nations to regent angels or gods (cf Deut 32:8). To begin His work to reclaim and save mankind and His creation He didn't pick from one of those nations to begin, but made a new nation. As St Paul says, He is "the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not." The people Israel came from and through Abraham, who is the father of all who believe in God. There is a parallel between Moses who redeems the sons of Jacob from Egypt through Pascha to form a new nation Israel with a covenant at Pentecost and Christ Jesus who comes to redeem the faithful remnant in Judea through Pascha to reconstitute Israel with a covenant at Pentecost. At the first, the people of Israel were an ethnically mixed group not formed by a certain tribe or a certain place but formed by their faithfulness to God. And at the reconstitution the same is true. Of the several nations of Abraham, Israel comes through the unique son Ishmael Isaac, and is culminated in the unique Son Jesus Christ. And so the purpose of Israel is to save the whole world - "Salvation comes from the Jews."

The mixed multitude who leave Egypt as Israel are not defined by where they live (a local god) or their ethnicity but by faithfulness to God. A "mixed multitude" goes out from Egypt, and many Israelites are clearly not ethnic descendants of Abraham (e.g., Caleb who is a Kenizzite). This new people Israel were formed by the Passover and covenant at Pentecost. They along with the other descendants of Abraham (such as Edom from Esau) inherit the land as told in Joshua. All the promises of the land were fulfilled (Josh 21:43). They lived for a time as tribes, then became a combined kingdom under Saul, then David and Solomon. After Solomon most of Israel (the ten tribes who made up the northern kingdom) broke away and immediately fell into apostasy. They were scattered after centuries of faithlessness and were lost into the gentile population when the Assyrians depopulated the land. Those ten tribes were prophesied to be renewed from the gentiles in the prophets (Jer 31:3-6, 50:4-5, Ezek 37:15-19) under the messianic king (Ezek 37:23-24). This restoration requires gentiles to come into Israel again, with a new Pascha, and a new Pentecost. Israel is the Lord's inheritance from the nations - and after the Messiah arises to judge, His inheritance is all nations (Ps 82). This is why the NT presents the death and resurrection of Jesus as a new Passover, Exodus, and Pentecost (John 1:29, Matt 26:2, Mark 14:1, John 19:14, 1 Cor 5:7, Act 20:28, 1 Pet 1:9,19, 1 Cor 10:1-4, Matt 26:28, 1 Cor 11:25, Heb 12:24).

St Paul in Romans answers the question of whether the dissolution of the Norther Kingdom meant God's promises to Israel failed. He raises a few examples to answer. First, the Lord who is sovereign allowed Pharaoh to be powerful even though he was evil - he was blessed by God who is merciful and loving even to disobedient humans. But in his evil, Pharaoh brought judgment on himself, and God used him as an example to judge the gods of Egypt (of which Pharaoh was one).

Next he mentions the potter analogy from Jeremiah. Yahweh shapes nations like a potter shapes clay, and if a nation is evil he breaks it down and re-shapes it (Jer 18:1-10). God as potter took these vessels of wrath and used the judgment of their faithlessness to prepare vessels of mercy which is both times Israel; the first, then the renewed. God's patience with these vessels of wrath is precisely for His mercy to be shown to the whole world, through His people Israel.

Likewise the analogy of the olive tree, where God allows the unfaithful branches to grow in order to prune them, to let faithful branches be grafted in. But these faithful were coming from all nations, including the ones that the faithless tribes were dispersed into. And so, in the end All Israel (even the lost tribes) is saved (Romans 9:25-26, Romans 11:25-27, Hoseah 1:10, 2:23) And this ongoing until the Israel is filled up with "the fullness of the gentiles" - the whole world. Eventually God inherits all people, and the faithful people of God come from all nations (Luke 21:24, Matt 28:19). The Church IS Israel.
Martin Q. Blank
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yah, I'm a Jew now.

Yukon Cornelius
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AG
What is the difference between natural and wild branch's? Who makes up the natural branch's that get grafted back in?

I guess my question is how does the natural branch (Israel) get cut off and replaced by gentiles(wild branch) and they become Israel. What are then of the cutoff natural branch's. Do they become gentiles? And when the natural branch's are grafted back in( future event) of what people will compromise the natural branch?
Yukon Cornelius
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"So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous."
Romans 11:11 ESV

So who are these are now jealous?
Yukon Cornelius
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AG
Paul offers a warning here specifically to gentiles about this very topic.

"That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off."
Romans 11:20-22 ESV

"For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.""
Romans 11:24-27 ESV
Yukon Cornelius
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Jeremiah chapter 3 also explains this. Remember Israel is Gods wife. They were married after the exodus and they agreed to follow God. Then He came down and they were afraid etc.

Here in Jeremiah we see Israel and Judah are *****s. Betraying their marriage to God. However If you keep reading God says if they repent He will restore them and bring them to Zion. This is in reference to the last days. Just like Paul says the natural will be regrafted back in.
Zobel
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Yukon Cornelius said:

What is the difference between natural and wild branch's? Who makes up the natural branch's that get grafted back in?

I guess my question is how does the natural branch (Israel) get cut off and replaced by gentiles(wild branch) and they become Israel. What are then of the cutoff natural branch's. Do they become gentiles? And when the natural branch's are grafted back in( future event) of what people will compromise the natural branch?


The olive tree is Israel, a nation started from scratch, caused to be by God. It was never about ethnicity; ethnicity was the means for the promises to be inherited, but not exclusive and they could be shared. Israel is firstborn, their heir - this is what St. Paul says when he poses, what then advantage to being a Jew?

The Gentiles are everyone other than Israel. When the northern kingdom was destroyed, those Israelites stopped being a distinct people. They became Gentiles. They were cut off from their people, from Israel (language used throughout the Torah). "Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."

Being Israel is and always has been about relationship with God, faithfulness. The natural branches of the tribes aren't grafted back in as natural branches. They're wild. They come in with the Gentiles they are now a part of. The prodigal son is instructive as well, here.
Yukon Cornelius
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In Jeremiah when they are not following God they are still called Israel by God. I think you missing some major points Like Paul saying they will be grafted back in. Like the prodigal son parable. Did the son stop being the son? No he's always the son. A son in rebellion yes but still the son. Israel is Israel. The church gets grafted in. But Israel although right now is disobedient will come to repentance just like Jeremiah 3 days.
Zobel
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AG
Yukon Cornelius said:

"So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous."
Romans 11:11 ESV

So who are these are now jealous?

The remaining people who identify as Israel. Ie Judaeans like St Paul himself was.
Zobel
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Ok. Not really interested in an argument. You're not having a discussion here, your gish gallop approach is impossible to engage with.

Yukon Cornelius
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Not trying to either. Your synopsis completely leaves out Israel coming to repentance like both the prophets and Paul write about. I was asking how that fits in your synopsis. You don't address it, just reiterate what you've already say and now you're resulting to dismissal with critiquing me. When you still are ignoring the simple question of who make up the natural branch's that Paul talk about. Or who are those in Jeremiah 3 that come to repentance? But that's fine if you don't know.
Yukon Cornelius
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Read Zechariah chapter 12. Clearly what's described there hasn't happened yet. And it specifically talks about the House of David realizing they killed Jesus. Which again hasn't happened yet.

""And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."
Zechariah 12:10 ESV

At some point in the future they will corporately recognize Jesus as their messiah
Zobel
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Yukon Cornelius said:

Not trying to either. Your synopsis completely leaves out Israel coming to repentance like both the prophets and Paul write about. I was asking how that fits in your synopsis. You don't address it, just reiterate what you've already say and now you're resulting to dismissal with critiquing me. When you still are ignoring the simple question of who make up the natural branch's that Paul talk about. Or who are those in Jeremiah 3 that come to repentance? But that's fine if you don't know.


My friend you posted four times before I could respond to the first and a fifth while I was answering the first. How is that productive conversation?

I haven't even had a chance to read questions you're saying I'm ignoring.

The lost tribes come to repentance from among the Gentiles. They're gone, there is no more Ephraim. That's why it's a resurrection, Ezekiels vision of the dry bones. This is why St. Paul explicitly connects the Gentiles with all Israel. "A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and so all Israel will be saved, as it is written…" How will all Israel be saved? By the full number of the Gentiles coming in, which contain the lost tribes. For example see Psalm 87:4 - " I will mention Rahab and Babylon among those who know Me - along with Philistia, Tyre, and Cush - when I say, 'This one was born in Zion.'"

The natural branches are Israel. The remaining branches are the faithful remnant, "the remnant chosen by grace." There is always a faithful remnant, even Elijah was told there were some who did not bend the knee to Baal.

Happy to have a conversation. Not interested in an argument.
Zobel
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Yukon Cornelius said:

Read Zechariah chapter 12. Clearly what's described there hasn't happened yet. And it specifically talks about the House of David realizing they killed Jesus. Which again hasn't happened yet.

""And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."
Zechariah 12:10 ESV

At some point in the future they will corporately recognize Jesus as their messiah

hasnt happened yet?

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Yukon Cornelius
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Read the whole chapter
Zobel
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There's lots of views on these three chapters (12-14). Everything from none has happened yet, or fulfilled in the Maccabean revolt, or partially fulfilled with some in Christ on the cross and some later. It depends on if you read it as one battle described twice, or separate battles. I'm pretty sure Calvin connected that passage to John's gospel, for example, as did Matthew Henry in his commentary. As did St Ignatius in one place. In another place St Ignatius connects it to the second coming, as does St Irenaeus.

At any rate this doesn't seem to be directly related to the question of who is Israel, as it's about Judah, not Israel.
Yukon Cornelius
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It relates that it shows God is not finished with the nation of Israel. The point of this discussion is this theology of the church becoming Israel and there's no future nation or ethnicity of Israel has been used to justify antisemitism.

I think the Bible is very clear there will be a future nation of Israel that is compromised of the genetic offspring of Jacob and they will recognize Jesus as their messiah. I've provided several verses that make that point. Including Paul warning Gentiles of being proud of replacing Israel.
Yukon Cornelius
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This is also where understanding the harvests shows that Israel is still to be harvested in the grape harvest.
UTExan
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<insert you will not replacement theology gif>
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Zobel
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Yukon Cornelius said:

It relates that it shows God is not finished with the nation of Israel. The point of this discussion is this theology of the church becoming Israel and there's no future nation or ethnicity of Israel has been used to justify antisemitism.

I think the Bible is very clear there will be a future nation of Israel that is compromised of the genetic offspring of Jacob and they will recognize Jesus as their messiah. I've provided several verses that make that point. Including Paul warning Gentiles of being proud of replacing Israel.


It doesn't. For starters, scripture doesn't work like that. It's not a proof-texting thing. There are literally hundreds of verses relating to what I wrote above, the support there was only a summary. Also for Zachariah 12 there are a variety of understandings of it even within the fathers, so it's hardly a conclusive single verse to relay this broad understanding - which, incidentally, is the understanding of the fathers.

Second, the church doesn't become Israel. Reread the post. At any point in the scriptures the work ekklesia means Israel. It's all over the OT.

Third there is a future people Israel - the faithful people of Yahweh. But Israel has never been about ethnicity. Ever, literally ever.

And yes the offspring of Jacob who recognize Christ are from among the Gentiles, because the tribes no longe exist as distinct peoples but are in the Gentiles.

Nobody replaced Israel. It's like you didn't read the OP at all.
Yukon Cornelius
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So did Israel stop being Israel when they lost the Torah? And then regain their Israelness with Josiah? Ethnicity does play apart. If not then why were surjouners protected to some degree? Or why are Jewish descendants treated differently? Go read the law. There were different laws for ethnic Jews and nonethnic Jews. This whole theology that ethnicity plays zero part is so bogus. Literally Ishmael gets a blessing because of ethnicity. But whatever man. Believe what you want. Just be careful teaching. We will be held accountable for everything we say.
Zobel
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Yukon Cornelius said:

So did Israel stop being Israel when they lost the Torah? And then regain their Israelness with Josiah? Ethnicity does play apart. If not then why were surjouners protected to some degree? Or why are Jewish descendants treated differently? Go read the law. There were different laws for ethnic Jews and nonethnic Jews. This whole theology that ethnicity plays zero part is so bogus. Literally Ishmael gets a blessing because of ethnicity. But whatever man. Believe what you want. Just be careful teaching. We will be held accountable for everything we say.


Israel is the faithful people of God. God chose to dwell among those people. Their apostasy resulted in His leaving as He can't be around sin without destruction, the original reason for the flood, and the assigning of the nations to angels.

Ethnicity does play a part in that the promises are inherited. But even then, not to the first born but God's firstborn. And anyone can be an heir to the promises, first through the unique son Isaac and now through The Unique Son Jesus Christ, who is the seed.

The protected people are the faithful remnant. There is always a faithful remnant. Even when Elijah despairs God tells him there is a faithful remnant who have not bent the knee to Baal.

There are *not* separate laws for ethnic and converts. There is a law for Israelites and law that applies to everyone including resident aliens, ie non-Israelites in the land.

Here's my question. Is Abraham your father? Are you an ethnic Jew? How do you understand that?

I do think it's incredibly important because a lot of bad theology comes from this idea of special blood. Israel was not formed through ethnic identity. It was formed through the Passover, Exodus, and covenant at Pentecost. So at what point did the ethnic point take over? Where is the scripture for that?

If it is ethnic, how can St. Paul say verbatim that not all who are of Israel are Israel?
Spyderman
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Kirk Cameron
PA24
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Yukon Cornelius said:

This is also where understanding the harvests shows that Israel is still to be harvested in the grape harvest.
He was taught Christ is currently reigning over earth.

I met a guy at work that also believes Israel is the church and not actually a physical place.

They can't explain why Israel is existing today and although God can perform mind numbing DNA individual microscope cell creation, he apparently can't bring back the 12 tribes of Israel that he made promises with.

Israel of today amazes me, still the center of of the universe, surrounded by billions of haters and yet she remains strong. We know that the entire world will turn against her and that is obviously happening.


Keep the faith!
Zobel
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No scriptural support? Not even a single verse?

Christ is reigning in the midst of his enemies. Psalm 110 is not the most oft quoted OT scripture in the NT for no reason. Or Daniel 9. Or check your calendar. The year of the Lord - AD - is counting from the year of the Lord's reign.

Of course God can reconstitute Israel. He did it, that's why St Paul says the praise of the mystery of God's plan for salvation.

You think the socialist nation state is Israel, then where are the ten tribes? More importantly, where is their king-priest?
PA24
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Zobel said:

No scriptural support? Not even a single verse?

Christ is reigning in the midst of his enemies. Psalm 110 is not the most oft quoted OT scripture in the NT for no reason. Or Daniel 9. Or check your calendar. The year of the Lord - AD - is counting from the year of the Lord's reign.

Of course God can reconstitute Israel. He did it, that's why St Paul says the praise of the mystery of God's plan for salvation.

You think the socialist nation state is Israel, then where are the ten tribes? More importantly, where is their king-priest?
Your readings and teachings are because of the sacrifices made by Tyndale.

The story of Israel is not complete and when Christ returns to reign, the entire world will know. All in the scriptures my friend.

Zobel
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My reading is due to the holy fathers and is an unbroken teaching that precedes Tyndale by some 1500 years. Truthfully as the faith of the apostles is the true faith of the people of God from all time, it is quite a bit older than that.

Obviously story of Israel isn't complete. See the OP.
82 TAMU Ag
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Of the several nations of Abraham, Israel comes through the unique son Ishmael, and is culminated in the unique Son Jesus Christ. And so the purpose of Israel is to save the whole world - "Salvation comes from the Jews."

Israel most certainly does NOT come from Ishmael. God made a covenant with Abraham that is first introduced in Genesis 15 and is an eternal covenant (Psalm 105:5-11). The Abrahamic Covenant was confirmed with Isaac not Ishmael in Genesis 17:19-21 and was later confirmed with Jacob in Genesis 28:10-15. It was Jacob whose name was changed to Israel in Genesis 35:9-13 and it was the 12 sons of Israel who became the 12 tribes of Israel.
Zobel
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AG
Brain fart, should be Isaac. Thanks.
one MEEN Ag
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AG
As a side note, I've been listening to the Whole Counsel of God podcast a lot lately. Its incredible.

I help teach/host a bible study "community group" for our church and were going through Acts right now. Its so frustrating how thick yet empty the leaders packets are. I'll read the leaders packet then go fire up a podcast episode and just shake my head at how much context the leader packet is missing compared to just a one hour episode.




Zobel
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AG
Fr Stephen is incredible.
Sb1540
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Zobel said:

This topic seems to come up a lot. This post is more or less taken directly from "The Religion of the Apostles" by Fr Stephen De Young. Great book, by the way.

The word Church is the English translation of the German translation of the Greek word ekklesia, meaning assembly (you'll recognize iglesia in Spanish borrows it directly from Greek). Its the word used in the Greek old testament to describe the assembly of Israel, God's people. In the New Testament this same word continues to be used to describe God's people, Israel restored. The Church did not replace Israel, is not the new Israel. It is Israel, in continuity - the assembled people of God. And it isn't that Israel stopped being something determined by ethnicity, it's that Israel was never about ethnicity and for only a brief period of time was it about a nation-state.

After Babel the Most High God assigned the nations to regent angels or gods (cf Deut 32:8). To begin His work to reclaim and save mankind and His creation He didn't pick from one of those nations to begin, but made a new nation. As St Paul says, He is "the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not." The people Israel came from and through Abraham, who is the father of all who believe in God. There is a parallel between Moses who redeems the sons of Jacob from Egypt through Pascha to form a new nation Israel with a covenant at Pentecost and Christ Jesus who comes to redeem the faithful remnant in Judea through Pascha to reconstitute Israel with a covenant at Pentecost. At the first, the people of Israel were an ethnically mixed group not formed by a certain tribe or a certain place but formed by their faithfulness to God. And at the reconstitution the same is true. Of the several nations of Abraham, Israel comes through the unique son Ishmael Isaac, and is culminated in the unique Son Jesus Christ. And so the purpose of Israel is to save the whole world - "Salvation comes from the Jews."

The mixed multitude who leave Egypt as Israel are not defined by where they live (a local god) or their ethnicity but by faithfulness to God. A "mixed multitude" goes out from Egypt, and many Israelites are clearly not ethnic descendants of Abraham (e.g., Caleb who is a Kenizzite). This new people Israel were formed by the Passover and covenant at Pentecost. They along with the other descendants of Abraham (such as Edom from Esau) inherit the land as told in Joshua. All the promises of the land were fulfilled (Josh 21:43). They lived for a time as tribes, then became a combined kingdom under Saul, then David and Solomon. After Solomon most of Israel (the ten tribes who made up the northern kingdom) broke away and immediately fell into apostasy. They were scattered after centuries of faithlessness and were lost into the gentile population when the Assyrians depopulated the land. Those ten tribes were prophesied to be renewed from the gentiles in the prophets (Jer 31:3-6, 50:4-5, Ezek 37:15-19) under the messianic king (Ezek 37:23-24). This restoration requires gentiles to come into Israel again, with a new Pascha, and a new Pentecost. Israel is the Lord's inheritance from the nations - and after the Messiah arises to judge, His inheritance is all nations (Ps 82). This is why the NT presents the death and resurrection of Jesus as a new Passover, Exodus, and Pentecost (John 1:29, Matt 26:2, Mark 14:1, John 19:14, 1 Cor 5:7, Act 20:28, 1 Pet 1:9,19, 1 Cor 10:1-4, Matt 26:28, 1 Cor 11:25, Heb 12:24).

St Paul in Romans answers the question of whether the dissolution of the Norther Kingdom meant God's promises to Israel failed. He raises a few examples to answer. First, the Lord who is sovereign allowed Pharaoh to be powerful even though he was evil - he was blessed by God who is merciful and loving even to disobedient humans. But in his evil, Pharaoh brought judgment on himself, and God used him as an example to judge the gods of Egypt (of which Pharaoh was one).

Next he mentions the potter analogy from Jeremiah. Yahweh shapes nations like a potter shapes clay, and if a nation is evil he breaks it down and re-shapes it (Jer 18:1-10). God as potter took these vessels of wrath and used the judgment of their faithlessness to prepare vessels of mercy which is both times Israel; the first, then the renewed. God's patience with these vessels of wrath is precisely for His mercy to be shown to the whole world, through His people Israel.

Likewise the analogy of the olive tree, where God allows the unfaithful branches to grow in order to prune them, to let faithful branches be grafted in. But these faithful were coming from all nations, including the ones that the faithless tribes were dispersed into. And so, in the end All Israel (even the lost tribes) is saved (Romans 9:25-26, Romans 11:25-27, Hoseah 1:10, 2:23) And this ongoing until the Israel is filled up with "the fullness of the gentiles" - the whole world. Eventually God inherits all people, and the faithful people of God come from all nations (Luke 21:24, Matt 28:19). The Church IS Israel.
Based
Sb1540
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Yukon Cornelius said:

So did Israel stop being Israel when they lost the Torah? And then regain their Israelness with Josiah? Ethnicity does play apart. If not then why were surjouners protected to some degree? Or why are Jewish descendants treated differently? Go read the law. There were different laws for ethnic Jews and nonethnic Jews. This whole theology that ethnicity plays zero part is so bogus. Literally Ishmael gets a blessing because of ethnicity. But whatever man. Believe what you want. Just be careful teaching. We will be held accountable for everything we say.
The same goes for you. The only reason you even take this stance is strictly a modern evangelical move. My crazy Aunt says the same thing every Christmas. She also donates money to "aid Israel" because a tv evangelist says that the current country of Israel contains "Gods chosen people." You can take this stance but just know that's it's not Christian in any sense. The modern Jew you see today is not anything like the second temple period Jew. Current Jews don't worship God the Father. You have been played.
Sb1540
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one MEEN Ag said:

As a side note, I've been listening to the Whole Counsel of God podcast a lot lately. Its incredible.

I help teach/host a bible study "community group" for our church and were going through Acts right now. Its so frustrating how thick yet empty the leaders packets are. I'll read the leaders packet then go fire up a podcast episode and just shake my head at how much context the leader packet is missing compared to just a one hour episode.





Love to see this. Welcome to a whole new world of Christianity. Bit by bit you will slowly remove western thought from your current idea of God. I've seen that podcast and others as a gateway for Protestants into Orthodoxy.
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