Pro Sandy said:

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Klaus Schwab said:

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Jabin said:

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Klaus Schwab said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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nortex97 said:

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Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.

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But it is.

My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.

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This might offend you but your father in law was not a strong Christian. He followed in the footsteps of Judas by committing suicide. It's a tragedy and the ultimate act of selfishness.

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Why say that? What possible value does it add to anyone or to the poster?

Who is a "strong Christian"? Anyone that claims to be is possibly full of pride and contradicted by that very claim. Each of should be making the prayer of the tax collector, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."

Thanks to Christ that none of us have to count on being a "strong Christian" but can rely on Christ's unimaginable love, grace, and mercy.

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Relax, he didn't say mental illness and that is the only exception. Well he's the one that said strong Christian so any question about pride is toward the departed. Having a history of mental illness changes the view of the suicide by the Church's standards but it has to be confirmed.

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Who does that? My pastor isn't qualified to confirm that. Is your's?

And I'm the one who said strong, not my father in law. So any question of pride falls on me, not him. What made him a strong Christian? His love for Christ.

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Yes my priest is qualified to do that and they can also be aided by a medical professional to confirm the mental status of the departed. Ultimately it comes down to the decision of the Church. The Church is a hospital and the priest or monk would know the condition of his children.

dermdoc said:

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Klaus Schwab said:

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Jabin said:

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Klaus Schwab said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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nortex97 said:

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Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.

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But it is.

My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.

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This might offend you but your father in law was not a strong Christian. He followed in the footsteps of Judas by committing suicide. It's a tragedy and the ultimate act of selfishness.

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Why say that? What possible value does it add to anyone or to the poster?

Who is a "strong Christian"? Anyone that claims to be is possibly full of pride and contradicted by that very claim. Each of should be making the prayer of the tax collector, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."

Thanks to Christ that none of us have to count on being a "strong Christian" but can rely on Christ's unimaginable love, grace, and mercy.

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Relax, he didn't say mental illness and that is the only exception. Well he's the one that said strong Christian so any question about pride is toward the departed. Having a history of mental illness changes the view of the suicide by the Church's standards but it has to be confirmed.

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I think almost all suicides are caused by mental illness whether diagnosed or not.

I disagree with the Orthodox Church here as a lot of people with mental illness are not diagnosed.

I lean on mercy here.

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You don't have any authority to make that claim. That's simply an opinion.

barbacoa taco said:

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Judas did what he did and he was who he was. But suicide is anything but a simple subject and one can't draw conclusions like that about someone they have never met.

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Agree that it's not simple but the original post didn't mention mental illness, just "good" Christian and no alcohol. I apologize for offending.

Well as a medical professional you could hypothetically aid the Church in a decision. Anyways, here is a prayer for suicide-

"O Lord, seek out the lost soul of they servant "name " : if it be possible, have mercy. Thy judgements are unfathomable. Do not count this prayer of mine as a sin, but rather may thy holy will be done."

Quote:

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Judas didn't repent and took his life.

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So from one example you make such a sweeping judgmental conclusion?

There are reasons other than mental illness that someone might justifiably take their own life. And even if one takes one's own life without justification, what makes it any worse of a sin than any other?

You should stop adding laws and rules to Christianity that cannot be found anywhere in the Bible.

My last post on here.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8804173/

Jabin said:

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Quote:

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Judas didn't repent and took his life.

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So from one example you make such a sweeping judgmental conclusion?

There are reasons other than mental illness that someone might justifiably take their own life. And even if one takes one's own life without justification, what makes it any worse of a sin than any other?

You should stop adding laws and rules to Christianity that cannot be found anywhere in the Bible.

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It's an important example. The apostles betrayed Christ but Judas was the one that didn't repent. Christ would have accepted him but he took his own life out of despair and a lack of trust in Christ. Many examples of this in suicide.

Suicide is worse than other sins because it ends any chance of repentance and growth in Christ. If you think your life is bad just wait until your soul separates from your body.

88Warrior said:

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Klaus Schwab said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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Klaus Schwab said:

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Jabin said:

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Klaus Schwab said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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nortex97 said:

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Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.

---

But it is.

My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.

---

This might offend you but your father in law was not a strong Christian. He followed in the footsteps of Judas by committing suicide. It's a tragedy and the ultimate act of selfishness.

---

Why say that? What possible value does it add to anyone or to the poster?

Who is a "strong Christian"? Anyone that claims to be is possibly full of pride and contradicted by that very claim. Each of should be making the prayer of the tax collector, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."

Thanks to Christ that none of us have to count on being a "strong Christian" but can rely on Christ's unimaginable love, grace, and mercy.

---

Relax, he didn't say mental illness and that is the only exception. Well he's the one that said strong Christian so any question about pride is toward the departed. Having a history of mental illness changes the view of the suicide by the Church's standards but it has to be confirmed.

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Who does that? My pastor isn't qualified to confirm that. Is your's?

And I'm the one who said strong, not my father in law. So any question of pride falls on me, not him. What made him a strong Christian? His love for Christ.

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Yes my priest is qualified to do that and they can also be aided by a medical professional to confirm the mental status of the departed. Ultimately it comes down to the decision of the Church. The Church is a hospital and the priest or monk would know the condition of his children.

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With all due respect, it comes down to between God and the person…and it's God's ultimate decision as he is the only one that knows the true condition of his child. Not trying to be argumentative…just a non-orthodox opinion…

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dermdoc said:

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My last post on here.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8804173/

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Check out Orthodox Psychotherapy by Metropolitan Hierotheos if you want a Christian perspective.

BluHorseShu said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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I'm not sure what you mean…but I'm just responding to what I often hear or read from ignorant brothers or cowards.

In this order is how it has to take place in Ephesians 5.

1. Wives submit to your husbands.
2. Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church…

These are two independent imperative commands.

It's not a conditional "if" and "then" statement. There is no usage of the Greek adversative found there in the text.

"If husbands love their wives, then the woman can submit or some say will naturally submit."

Might as well join the liberals and join a completely different religion.

Both commands must equally be applied.

And Ephesians isn't the only place where the Bible tells wives to submit to their husbands. St. Paul mentions it again in his letter to the Corinthians.

But St. Paul was a sexist…okay…St. Peter says, " Hey feminists, one of the ones with Christ all the time and you might as well rip out both of my inspired epistles as well. Why don't I get any attention here?"

1 Peter 3:1-5 (ESV)

"Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3 Do not let your adorning be external braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. 5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands,"

"…even if some (husbands) do not obey the word."

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Of course they must be equally applied. But often that may not be the reality. And I think you left out what the first step is that we are commanded to do in Ephesians 5. Number one is actually that both husband and wife, as children of God, must first BOTH walk in love. There is a mutual submission in that.
So as far as a family hierarchy, sure I can get behind the husband is ultimately the head and a 1st then 2nd order. But the commands themselves are synchronous. The husband can't have a legitimate expectation of his wife submissiveness to his being head if he knowingly is not following what is commanded of him. And yet the wife should continue to focus on her part.
It seems too easy for some, unfortunately, to read their leadership of the wife and family as permission for tyranny. If that's the case, then they are disobeying God. If the wife is not being submissive, she is disobeying God, but the husband is still required to love her the way Christ loves the Church.

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Oh Blue, I wish we could agree. But chapters were added later. The verse 22 of mutual submission that you mention is the climax of everything that is not related to marriage…
Specifically read Ephesians 5:1-22. Then Blue…you start adding conditions that do not exist in the texts for the duties
and responsibilities for wives commanded by God.

They are to submit to God. But not equally submit to one another as husband and wife or St. Paul would be contradicting both himself and the spiritual hierarchy of the university. And both must walk in love. But this isn't a condition to excuse the submission of a wife to her husband.

And St. Peter has equal authority to St. Paul and he states that even if the husband isn't walking in obedience (for love is a form of obedience to the law and is an action) to the word, then the wife must still submit. But I already quoted the reference from St. Peter above.

But there is more to it that also fits both St. Peter's unconditional command and St. Paul's unconditional commands in Ephesians 5:23-25 about wives submitting to husbands and husbands loving wives.

The more to it is this:

1 Corinthians 6:13-14 (ESV)

13 If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

Not only must she submit even if the husband isn't obeying the word, she can't even divorce him and must stay submissive to an unbelieving husband.

The Apostles aren't contradicting themselves. This is the historic teaching of the church which is verified by the exegesis in the Greek.

This reminds me of a story about St. Augustine.

His mother Monica was beat and abused by Augustine's father. She stayed faithful to the Lord and submissive to her husband. Augustine praises God that through his testimony building years that the submission of his mother to her husband was a witness of the love of Christ and was a factor in his conversion.

So if Monica didn't submit to her husband, then we may have never had the opportunity to learn from probably the greatest theologian ever to be known.

Of course, ultimately this was all a work of God's grace alone because God gets all the glory for her obedience to the scriptures in submitting to her husband.

Quote:

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So if Monica didn't submit to her husband, then we may have never had the opportunity to learn from probably the greatest theologian ever to be known.

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Can you really make that conclusion from those facts in St. Augustine's life? Could it not equally be true that St. Augustine was such a great theologian despite the relationship between his parents? To illustrate the point further, St. Augustine was apparently also a libertine as a young man. Should we also encourage young people to be libertines in the hope that they become theologians?

I am merely stating to you that St. Augustine praised his mother Monica for it and leave it at that.

This doesn't imply that the unfaithfulness and probable degeneracy in his life before things went to the straight and narrow were acceptable or were a good example of what it takes to become a good theologian.

This was the unique hand of God on his life by sheer grace.


The greater testimony is that of a steadfast faithfulness and never going astray.

I think that everyone's situation is different and it's problematic to make sweeping generalizations and judgments about others.

What was the socio-economic situation like for St. Augustine's mother? If she had left her husband, in many ancient cultures she would have either likely starved to death or been forced into prostitution. So her decision to stay may have been as much due to economic necessity as it was to faithfulness.

I have a female cousin whose husband doused her with gasoline and threatened to set her on fire. She left him and got a divorce. I don't find any justification in the Bible for her leaving her husband, yet in my heart I know that she was 100% correct and support her fully.

Sir, I ultimately don't know. Nowhere in the Scripture is spouse abuse acceptable. Thank God that he has kept me from doing so because my dad went through a struggle with alcohol for a a 12 year stretch that ended up putting him in prison for a year from too much burbon and dui.

My mom obeyed and always submitted to him. God worked his grace through it. From the age of 60 to his passing at the age of 74, he taught Sunday school and was back in the ministry again. It gave me the opportunity to better forgive him for not being there much in middle school and high school in my development. I forgave him and even after the fact that my dad was back in line with God, he always cried and asked me to forgive him. He knew that I had, but that I couldn't immediately fix my emotions on the matter. That's because no one should ever tell anyone how to feel when they are going through what we all had to experience.

But instead of avoiding the suffering, my mom got with her Christian friends and a woman who was going through something very similar with her husband.

Both husbands returned to faithfulness to God through their wives' prayer, obedience to the scriptures where it says to submit as unto the Lord, and trusting in the sovereignty of God.

The reconnection that I received experiencing getting my dad back in the most healthy way was due to my mom and her being a prayer warrior. God works through families and individuals and communities.

I'll tell you what else is causing hopelessness that may lead to suicide in some case or is a contributing factor. And that issue is porn on your middle school child's phone. Porn is a moral killer that affects the reasoning connection to the Divine.


1 Corinthians 6:18
English Standard Version

{18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.}

If you watch porn, then you are giving into the Beast (i.e secular culture)

You become a woman with a coles, in the Latin,
when you watch it.