Agree.
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Suicide Rate Highest since 1941
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Last: 11 mo ago by TheGreatEscape
Feminists, even some married ones, are eating their own sons when they rule the roost. And if there is enough provided for them, they may stay. If there is enough of a moral grounding, then they may stay.
But what are they teaching their sons? They're teaching their sons to be submissive to their future wife. And if a man is weak, she may like that in the beginning. But she will leave him if she wants a man, which means leader.
And I'm not saying that there is not give and take. I'm not saying that the Bible doesn't tell husbands to listen to their wives. But dad ought to have the final say. The mom or wife should respect her husband.
Traditional marriage vowels have "and to obey him."
The law of nature says that one is going to submit to the other in the natural hierarchy of creation.
If you are in a marriage that attempts to be egalitarian, which most of us are in or have been in, then you should keep probably keep things the way they are for your children's sake and submit to your wife as worship and submission to God.
Pray and hope God changes and can change the heart. Probably pray it and not say it.
Because I doubt the preacher from the pulpit is going to help you out on the matter. And things are already established the way they are. Living for the eternity. That's my current thoughts and these are just opinions.
God help us all.
But what are they teaching their sons? They're teaching their sons to be submissive to their future wife. And if a man is weak, she may like that in the beginning. But she will leave him if she wants a man, which means leader.
And I'm not saying that there is not give and take. I'm not saying that the Bible doesn't tell husbands to listen to their wives. But dad ought to have the final say. The mom or wife should respect her husband.
Traditional marriage vowels have "and to obey him."
The law of nature says that one is going to submit to the other in the natural hierarchy of creation.
If you are in a marriage that attempts to be egalitarian, which most of us are in or have been in, then you should keep probably keep things the way they are for your children's sake and submit to your wife as worship and submission to God.
Pray and hope God changes and can change the heart. Probably pray it and not say it.
Because I doubt the preacher from the pulpit is going to help you out on the matter. And things are already established the way they are. Living for the eternity. That's my current thoughts and these are just opinions.
God help us all.
Make Masculinity Toxic Again would sell like hot cakes if you could fit it on a hat.BrazosDog02 said:
I think those are great points. Toxic masculinity needs make a huge comeback. I too think it's awesome that women get equal pay and they excel. But I also think we shoukd stop demonizing women that want to raise their kids and stay at home. That arrangement seems to garner more frowns than kudos now than it used to.
I think you need to add a caveat to the 'and to obey him'. God, nor scripture, means this to be a carte blanche. Scripture certainly lays out the hierarchy, but it also commands the husband to 'love his wife'. And if he is not doing that, there cannot be an expectation of obedience. If dad has the final say and it is a self-centered, or worse, decision, it fails.TheGreatEscape said:
Feminists, even some married ones, are eating their own sons when they rule the roost. And if there is enough provided for them, they may stay. If there is enough of a moral grounding, then they may stay.
But what are they teaching their sons? They're teaching their sons to be submissive to their future wife. And if a man is weak, she may like that in the beginning. But she will leave him if she wants a man, which means leader.
And I'm not saying that there is not give and take. I'm not saying that the Bible doesn't tell husbands to listen to their wives. But dad ought to have the final say. The mom or wife should respect her husband.
Traditional marriage vowels have "and to obey him."
The law of nature says that one is going to submit to the other in the natural hierarchy of creation.
If you are in a marriage that attempts to be egalitarian, which most of us are in or have been in, then you should keep probably keep things the way they are for your children's sake and submit to your wife as worship and submission to God.
Pray and hope God changes and can change the heart. Probably pray it and not say it.
Because I doubt the preacher from the pulpit is going to help you out on the matter. And things are already established the way they are. Living for the eternity. That's my current thoughts and these are just opinions.
God help us all.
I'm not sure what you mean…but I'm just responding to what I often hear or read from ignorant brothers or cowards.
In this order is how it has to take place in Ephesians 5.
1. Wives submit to your husbands.
2. Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church…
These are two independent imperative commands.
It's not a conditional "if" and "then" statement. There is no usage of the Greek adversative found there in the text.
"If husbands love their wives, then the woman can submit or some say will naturally submit."
Might as well join the liberals and join a completely different religion.
Both commands must equally be applied.
And Ephesians isn't the only place where the Bible tells wives to submit to their husbands. St. Paul mentions it again in his letter to the Corinthians.
But St. Paul was a sexist…okay…St. Peter says, " Hey feminists, one of the ones with Christ all the time and you might as well rip out both of my inspired epistles as well. Why don't I get any attention here?"
1 Peter 3:1-5 (ESV)
"Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3 Do not let your adorning be external braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. 5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands,"
"…even if some (husbands) do not obey the word."
In this order is how it has to take place in Ephesians 5.
1. Wives submit to your husbands.
2. Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church…
These are two independent imperative commands.
It's not a conditional "if" and "then" statement. There is no usage of the Greek adversative found there in the text.
"If husbands love their wives, then the woman can submit or some say will naturally submit."
Might as well join the liberals and join a completely different religion.
Both commands must equally be applied.
And Ephesians isn't the only place where the Bible tells wives to submit to their husbands. St. Paul mentions it again in his letter to the Corinthians.
But St. Paul was a sexist…okay…St. Peter says, " Hey feminists, one of the ones with Christ all the time and you might as well rip out both of my inspired epistles as well. Why don't I get any attention here?"
1 Peter 3:1-5 (ESV)
"Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3 Do not let your adorning be external braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. 5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands,"
"…even if some (husbands) do not obey the word."
And the emphasis is not saying you can't wear jewelry or braid your hair, etc. The point is that your godly conduct by walking in the Spirit is what your main attraction ought to be.
Yes. I believe that the various forms of disorder in the home contribute to suicide.
This:
I want a man. But I don't want a man.
This:
I want a man. But I don't want a man.
I don't subscribe to the wives obeying husbands as a command. I've met too many people whose husbands are not the brightest bulbs in the room. In terms of the discussion, I think husbands and wives should be making informed decisions together and if one has such opposition that it is not able to be overcome, then it needs to be worked out in a suitable manner, not "well, I'm the husband and that's that so my decision goes."
That may not be what you meant but that is what I understood. My apologies in advance if I'm wrong. Then again, picking good wives is key to this. I honestly cannot think of a hands down opposition my wife had to "submit" to. We both have our things and there is a certain amount of acceptance that each will do some things regardless of the opposition of the other. These are small things like adding extra salt to a meal without tasting it.
We would never have a discussion such that "I don't like Catholic Church and you will go with me to Methodist church". We would both agree that decision is good or stupid because we are like minded. For churches, we've done exactly that. That like mindedness goes a long way to keeping peace in the family and by proxy allowing me to still be in control equally with my wife which I do believe 100% is the way it should be regardless of biblical interpretation by the individual.
Either way, I know this is a religion board but when it comes to your wives, Ralphie May nailed it with "guys, you can be RIGHT or you can be HAPPY." I do pick my battles. We both do.
To bring it back on topic with suicides, as you've noted, family strife is but one factor, another pebble in the shoe if you will, of the overall hardships males face. I'd be miserable as hell if my wife didn't match my mental capacity, religious views, decision making skills….and I was always at odds with her wishes. That would suck and affect all aspects of my life which would suffer and then the spiral would be in full swing.
That may not be what you meant but that is what I understood. My apologies in advance if I'm wrong. Then again, picking good wives is key to this. I honestly cannot think of a hands down opposition my wife had to "submit" to. We both have our things and there is a certain amount of acceptance that each will do some things regardless of the opposition of the other. These are small things like adding extra salt to a meal without tasting it.
We would never have a discussion such that "I don't like Catholic Church and you will go with me to Methodist church". We would both agree that decision is good or stupid because we are like minded. For churches, we've done exactly that. That like mindedness goes a long way to keeping peace in the family and by proxy allowing me to still be in control equally with my wife which I do believe 100% is the way it should be regardless of biblical interpretation by the individual.
Either way, I know this is a religion board but when it comes to your wives, Ralphie May nailed it with "guys, you can be RIGHT or you can be HAPPY." I do pick my battles. We both do.
To bring it back on topic with suicides, as you've noted, family strife is but one factor, another pebble in the shoe if you will, of the overall hardships males face. I'd be miserable as hell if my wife didn't match my mental capacity, religious views, decision making skills….and I was always at odds with her wishes. That would suck and affect all aspects of my life which would suffer and then the spiral would be in full swing.
Thank you, let me qualify.
Even good head coaches listen to quality assistant coaches.
Takes two to tango. Just trying to state that this is what should be instructed from the pulpit. A husband can't teach his wife to obey him. She has to get that from other Godly women and where these passages are preached for everyone to hear. But they aren't preached correctly as I demonstrated. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes from the word of God."
I would say that common day wisdom is probably what you have to go by because our pastors/priests are likely not going to build the ordered foundation for harmonious love to occur in a marriage. A lot of marriages and young women and men need to hear it before they are married as well.
I prefer that we would follow Scriptures over modern human philosophy any day and at all times.
And there is a difference between the "is" and the "ought."
Please pray for men in the pulpit. Maybe pastor wives shouldn't be in attendance during those Sundays in which it is taught?
That's because this isn't personal. But it is personal.
Even good head coaches listen to quality assistant coaches.
Takes two to tango. Just trying to state that this is what should be instructed from the pulpit. A husband can't teach his wife to obey him. She has to get that from other Godly women and where these passages are preached for everyone to hear. But they aren't preached correctly as I demonstrated. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes from the word of God."
I would say that common day wisdom is probably what you have to go by because our pastors/priests are likely not going to build the ordered foundation for harmonious love to occur in a marriage. A lot of marriages and young women and men need to hear it before they are married as well.
I prefer that we would follow Scriptures over modern human philosophy any day and at all times.
And there is a difference between the "is" and the "ought."
Please pray for men in the pulpit. Maybe pastor wives shouldn't be in attendance during those Sundays in which it is taught?
That's because this isn't personal. But it is personal.
I get the prevailing impression from society that all the mental issues men have now is just due to loss of our prior privileged status. As if the fact that we aren't always in charge and getting preferential treatment is so unbearable that we are killing ourselves over it. Like the ultimate manifestation of the fragile male ego. Obviously I think that's ridiculous. Drug addiction and suicide among men are historically very good markers for the health and viability of a society. Off the top of my head, the historical comparisons would be 1800s China, the Great Depression US, post WW1 Germany, and post USSR Russia. In all of those situations the drug abuse and suicide rates for adult men skyrocketed. The only one of those societies that is still around is the US, but only because post WW1 Germany started a world war that we won.
To be honest, I don't think the rise of women's rights is really the key. I'm afraid that our society is a sinking ship, and the women's versus men's rights issues are just rats climbing on top of each other to stay above water.
To be honest, I don't think the rise of women's rights is really the key. I'm afraid that our society is a sinking ship, and the women's versus men's rights issues are just rats climbing on top of each other to stay above water.
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I think our society is way too focused on comfort and entertainment. Nobody wants to leave the house anymore. We've lost meaning and purpose.
Frok said:
I think our society is way too focused on comfort and entertainment. Nobody wants to leave the house anymore. We've lost meaning and purpose.
Agree. Really hard to get young people involved in church, community, or Aggie clubs or committees.
They are missing out on a lot in my opinion.
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Read some articles on the Nones, those who have left the church and declare their religion as none. They are strongly seeking purpose and community, two things the church fundamentally does. A basic need we crave that God has provided and when we leave it, we aren't satisfied.
Good word.
dermdoc said:
I believe the main problem is defining your identity on anything other than Jesus.
If your identity is based on your job, success, money, etc. then it can be destroyed in a heartbeat.
Christ is eternal and the only true rock.
St. Augustine said it very clearly over 1600 years ago:
Now, consider what Blaise Pascal said about happiness together with that quote from Augustine and I think we can see that there is nothing new under the Sun:Quote:
You made us for yourself oh Lord and our hearts are restless until they rest in you.
Mental health and trauma and mental illness is real and certainly must be considered when dealing with suicide, but at the heart of it is a crisis driven by the turning away from the transcendent to the materialistic and we are definitely reaping what we've sown and are poised to inherit the wind if we don't start doing the things necessary to inculcate a deep sense of the inherent dignity of every person simply because they are created in the image and likeness of God.Quote:
All men seek happiness. This is without exception. Whatever different means they employ, they all tend to this end. The cause of some going to war, and of others avoiding it, is the same desire in both, attended with different views. The will never takes the least step but to this object. This is the motive of every action of every man, even of those who hang themselves.
Amen and amen.
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
Pro Sandy said:But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
All three of the individuals that I knew personally were not on drugs or alcohol.
Sorry for your loss but I don't think that is really representative of the change in suicide rates over the past 70+ years. Not an attack, just an observation.Pro Sandy said:But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
I'm happy to see the evidence you havenortex97 said:Sorry for your loss but I don't think that is really representative of the change in suicide rates over the past 70+ years. Not an attack, just an observation.Pro Sandy said:But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
This might offend you but your father in law was not a strong Christian. He followed in the footsteps of Judas by committing suicide. It's a tragedy and the ultimate act of selfishness.Pro Sandy said:But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
Why say that? What possible value does it add to anyone or to the poster?Klaus Schwab said:This might offend you but your father in law was not a strong Christian. He followed in the footsteps of Judas by committing suicide. It's a tragedy and the ultimate act of selfishness.Pro Sandy said:But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
Who is a "strong Christian"? Anyone that claims to be is possibly full of pride and contradicted by that very claim. Each of should be making the prayer of the tax collector, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."
Thanks to Christ that none of us have to count on being a "strong Christian" but can rely on Christ's unimaginable love, grace, and mercy.
With all due respect, you know very little about the horrors of mental illness.Klaus Schwab said:This might offend you but your father in law was not a strong Christian. He followed in the footsteps of Judas by committing suicide. It's a tragedy and the ultimate act of selfishness.Pro Sandy said:But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
And re read your post. I can not imagine Jesus saying something like that.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
You don't offend me because I know you speak from ignorance. You never met the man, you don't know the story at all, but you made your decision. So the ignorance was in both jumping to conclusions and in not having any facts to make your conclusion.Klaus Schwab said:This might offend you but your father in law was not a strong Christian. He followed in the footsteps of Judas by committing suicide. It's a tragedy and the ultimate act of selfishness.Pro Sandy said:But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
I've heard many people, including Christians, say that suicide is selfish. Maybe in a few cases, but I think a lot of cases are dealing with mental illness. Suicide is not a reasonable response in most cases and is not the decision a healthy mind makes.
His mental illness we never got diagnosed. We were working on it, but the doctors hadn't been able to make that decision yet. He had perhaps developed dementia or schizophrenia. He clearly wasn't the same man in his last 6 months as he was in his first 73.5 years.
They put him on abilify. Really strong medication. He didn't like it because it usually knocked him out. I thought he was at least safe for a few minutes. If seemed to give a little clarity to his mind, but didn't return him to normal.
He had at least 5 doctors recommend in patient care. He refused. I was for forced treatment, his wife and my wife wasn't. It only buys you 72 hours anyway.
His reality wasn't reality. A man who ad been a big saver and investor his entire life became convinced he was broke. He was adamant he had done something wrong and they had no money. He would turn off the central heat in the house and multiple times woke up his wife in the middle of the night to tell her they would starve to death that day because he was broke. He had been one of the most generous men in town and stopped all his donating. We showed him his bank statements, reviewed his portfolio, sat him down with his financial advisor, but none of the facts mattered because his brain wasn't working. He was convinced he was broke and all the commas in his financial statement didn't matter. In death, no mistake was ever found and my mother in law is financial set.
When we talked about God, he would claim that his financial mistake was so great that even Jesus couldn't forgive him. My wife would tell him "dad, you know the scriptures because you taught them to us."
Ever spend hours with someone as they tell you suicide is the right answer because they wasted their money and you trying to convince them otherwise? Ever have a family member so mentally sick that you had to threaten to call the cops on them to get them into your car so you can take them to the ER where they then again refuse the in patient care the ER doctor recommends? Ever put the child locks on in the car so you can get a family member to a doctor's appointment they don't want? Ever have a family member tell you they want to go home and you say no because you are afraid they will hurt themselves and they acknowledge they probably will? Most of us haven't, because it isn't normal mental behavior.
He didn't act in a rational manner because he was mentally sick and suicide in the vast majority of cases isn't a rational decision.
So I won't put much stock in what you say. But I will in a good doctor friend of his who wasn't treating him, but knew him for 40 years. He said he sat by him in Sunday school every week and was always impressed with how much my father in law knew about the Bible and his relationship with Jesus. He noticed the stark decline the last few months and acknowledged he didn't know what was wrong either. But, and this was most helpful for me, he was pretty sure he crossed a threshold months earlier and we were fighting for days and weeks, not months and years. The sickness was too great.
It wasn't he didn't pray hard enough or was selfish, he was mentally sick and I don't think modern medicine understands mental health enough yet to treat.
Here is part of what I shared at his funeral.
Quote:
But his faith is of no more, for today he is in the presence of Jesus and seeing his maker face to face. From our perspective, death seems to have won and evil triumph. But from God's perspective, death has no sting, the grave has no victory. Thanks be to God, which gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus taught us that He came not to condemn, but to save. That His death and resurrection are sufficient for salvation, no matter our works and failures. And our belief in Christ, even amidst doubt, ensures eternal life. I am confident that the word of the Lord stands still today and that this truth remains true. The love of God in Jesus saw him cross the Jordan into our Savior's presence, he had his tears were wiped by God himself, in that place where there is no mourning, no crying, no pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.
Well stated. Until you have experienced mental illness in family members, it is real hard to grasp the seriousness of it.Pro Sandy said:You don't offend me because I know you speak from ignorance. You never met the man, you don't know the story at all, but you made your decision. So the ignorance was in both jumping to conclusions and in not having any facts to make your conclusion.Klaus Schwab said:This might offend you but your father in law was not a strong Christian. He followed in the footsteps of Judas by committing suicide. It's a tragedy and the ultimate act of selfishness.Pro Sandy said:But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
I've heard many people, including Christians, say that suicide is selfish. Maybe in a few cases, but I think a lot of cases are dealing with mental illness. Suicide is not a reasonable response in most cases and is not the decision a healthy mind makes.
His mental illness we never got diagnosed. We were working on it, but the doctors hadn't been able to make that decision yet. He had perhaps developed dementia or schizophrenia. He clearly wasn't the same man in his last 6 months as he was in his first 73.5 years.
They put him on abilify. Really strong medication. He didn't like it because it usually knocked him out. I thought he was at least safe for a few minutes. If seemed to give a little clarity to his mind, but didn't return him to normal.
He had at least 5 doctors recommend in patient care. He refused. I was for forced treatment, his wife and my wife wasn't. It only buys you 72 hours anyway.
His reality wasn't reality. A man who ad been a big saver and investor his entire life became convinced he was broke. He was adamant he had done something wrong and they had no money. He would turn off the central heat in the house and multiple times woke up his wife in the middle of the night to tell her they would starve to death that day because he was broke. He had been one of the most generous men in town and stopped all his donating. We showed him his bank statements, reviewed his portfolio, sat him down with his financial advisor, but none of the facts mattered because his brain wasn't working. He was convinced he was broke and all the commas in his financial statement didn't matter. In death, no mistake was ever found and my mother in law is financial set.
When we talked about God, he would claim that his financial mistake was so great that even Jesus couldn't forgive him. My wife would tell him "dad, you know the scriptures because you taught them to us."
Ever spend hours with someone as they tell you suicide is the right answer because they wasted their money and you trying to convince them otherwise? Ever have a family member so mentally sick that you had to threaten to call the cops on them to get them into your car so you can take them to the ER where they then again refuse the in patient care the ER doctor recommends? Ever put the child locks on in the car so you can get a family member to a doctor's appointment they don't want? Ever have a family member tell you they want to go home and you say no because you are afraid they will hurt themselves and they acknowledge they probably will? Most of us haven't, because it isn't normal mental behavior.
He didn't act in a rational manner because he was mentally sick and suicide in the vast majority of cases isn't a rational decision.
So I won't put much stock in what you say. But I will in a good doctor friend of his who wasn't treating him, but knew him for 40 years. He said he sat by him in Sunday school every week and was always impressed with how much my father in law knew about the Bible and his relationship with Jesus. He noticed the stark decline the last few months and acknowledged he didn't know what was wrong either. But, and this was most helpful for me, he was pretty sure he crossed a threshold months earlier and we were fighting for days and weeks, not months and years. The sickness was too great.
It wasn't he didn't pray hard enough or was selfish, he was mentally sick and I don't think modern medicine understands mental health enough yet to treat.
Here is part of what I shared at his funeral.Quote:
But his faith is of no more, for today he is in the presence of Jesus and seeing his maker face to face. From our perspective, death seems to have won and evil triumph. But from God's perspective, death has no sting, the grave has no victory. Thanks be to God, which gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus taught us that He came not to condemn, but to save. That His death and resurrection are sufficient for salvation, no matter our works and failures. And our belief in Christ, even amidst doubt, ensures eternal life. I am confident that the word of the Lord stands still today and that this truth remains true. The love of God in Jesus saw him cross the Jordan into our Savior's presence, he had his tears were wiped by God himself, in that place where there is no mourning, no crying, no pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.
And unfortunately, most of our meds just sedate the patient rather than actually treating the disease itself.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Mental illness is the only exception to my original post. That's an important piece of info when stating he never touched alcohol and was a strong Christian. The Orthodox Church allows a proper burial if the mental illness is confirmed.Pro Sandy said:You don't offend me because I know you speak from ignorance. You never met the man, you don't know the story at all, but you made your decision. So the ignorance was in both jumping to conclusions and in not having any facts to make your conclusion.Klaus Schwab said:This might offend you but your father in law was not a strong Christian. He followed in the footsteps of Judas by committing suicide. It's a tragedy and the ultimate act of selfishness.Pro Sandy said:But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
I've heard many people, including Christians, say that suicide is selfish. Maybe in a few cases, but I think a lot of cases are dealing with mental illness. Suicide is not a reasonable response in most cases and is not the decision a healthy mind makes.
His mental illness we never got diagnosed. We were working on it, but the doctors hadn't been able to make that decision yet. He had perhaps developed dementia or schizophrenia. He clearly wasn't the same man in his last 6 months as he was in his first 73.5 years.
They put him on abilify. Really strong medication. He didn't like it because it usually knocked him out. I thought he was at least safe for a few minutes. If seemed to give a little clarity to his mind, but didn't return him to normal.
He had at least 5 doctors recommend in patient care. He refused. I was for forced treatment, his wife and my wife wasn't. It only buys you 72 hours anyway.
His reality wasn't reality. A man who ad been a big saver and investor his entire life became convinced he was broke. He was adamant he had done something wrong and they had no money. He would turn off the central heat in the house and multiple times woke up his wife in the middle of the night to tell her they would starve to death that day because he was broke. He had been one of the most generous men in town and stopped all his donating. We showed him his bank statements, reviewed his portfolio, sat him down with his financial advisor, but none of the facts mattered because his brain wasn't working. He was convinced he was broke and all the commas in his financial statement didn't matter. In death, no mistake was ever found and my mother in law is financial set.
When we talked about God, he would claim that his financial mistake was so great that even Jesus couldn't forgive him. My wife would tell him "dad, you know the scriptures because you taught them to us."
Ever spend hours with someone as they tell you suicide is the right answer because they wasted their money and you trying to convince them otherwise? Ever have a family member so mentally sick that you had to threaten to call the cops on them to get them into your car so you can take them to the ER where they then again refuse the in patient care the ER doctor recommends? Ever put the child locks on in the car so you can get a family member to a doctor's appointment they don't want? Ever have a family member tell you they want to go home and you say no because you are afraid they will hurt themselves and they acknowledge they probably will? Most of us haven't, because it isn't normal mental behavior.
He didn't act in a rational manner because he was mentally sick and suicide in the vast majority of cases isn't a rational decision.
So I won't put much stock in what you say. But I will in a good doctor friend of his who wasn't treating him, but knew him for 40 years. He said he sat by him in Sunday school every week and was always impressed with how much my father in law knew about the Bible and his relationship with Jesus. He noticed the stark decline the last few months and acknowledged he didn't know what was wrong either. But, and this was most helpful for me, he was pretty sure he crossed a threshold months earlier and we were fighting for days and weeks, not months and years. The sickness was too great.
It wasn't he didn't pray hard enough or was selfish, he was mentally sick and I don't think modern medicine understands mental health enough yet to treat.
Here is part of what I shared at his funeral.Quote:
But his faith is of no more, for today he is in the presence of Jesus and seeing his maker face to face. From our perspective, death seems to have won and evil triumph. But from God's perspective, death has no sting, the grave has no victory. Thanks be to God, which gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus taught us that He came not to condemn, but to save. That His death and resurrection are sufficient for salvation, no matter our works and failures. And our belief in Christ, even amidst doubt, ensures eternal life. I am confident that the word of the Lord stands still today and that this truth remains true. The love of God in Jesus saw him cross the Jordan into our Savior's presence, he had his tears were wiped by God himself, in that place where there is no mourning, no crying, no pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.
Relax, he didn't say mental illness and that is the only exception. Well he's the one that said strong Christian so any question about pride is toward the departed. Having a history of mental illness changes the view of the suicide by the Church's standards but it has to be confirmed.Jabin said:Why say that? What possible value does it add to anyone or to the poster?Klaus Schwab said:This might offend you but your father in law was not a strong Christian. He followed in the footsteps of Judas by committing suicide. It's a tragedy and the ultimate act of selfishness.Pro Sandy said:But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
Who is a "strong Christian"? Anyone that claims to be is possibly full of pride and contradicted by that very claim. Each of should be making the prayer of the tax collector, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."
Thanks to Christ that none of us have to count on being a "strong Christian" but can rely on Christ's unimaginable love, grace, and mercy.
Who does that? My pastor isn't qualified to confirm that. Is your's?Klaus Schwab said:Relax, he didn't say mental illness and that is the only exception. Well he's the one that said strong Christian so any question about pride is toward the departed. Having a history of mental illness changes the view of the suicide by the Church's standards but it has to be confirmed.Jabin said:Why say that? What possible value does it add to anyone or to the poster?Klaus Schwab said:This might offend you but your father in law was not a strong Christian. He followed in the footsteps of Judas by committing suicide. It's a tragedy and the ultimate act of selfishness.Pro Sandy said:But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
Who is a "strong Christian"? Anyone that claims to be is possibly full of pride and contradicted by that very claim. Each of should be making the prayer of the tax collector, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."
Thanks to Christ that none of us have to count on being a "strong Christian" but can rely on Christ's unimaginable love, grace, and mercy.
And I'm the one who said strong, not my father in law. So any question of pride falls on me, not him. What made him a strong Christian? His love for Christ.
Of course they must be equally applied. But often that may not be the reality. And I think you left out what the first step is that we are commanded to do in Ephesians 5. Number one is actually that both husband and wife, as children of God, must first BOTH walk in love. There is a mutual submission in that.TheGreatEscape said:
I'm not sure what you mean…but I'm just responding to what I often hear or read from ignorant brothers or cowards.
In this order is how it has to take place in Ephesians 5.
1. Wives submit to your husbands.
2. Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church…
These are two independent imperative commands.
It's not a conditional "if" and "then" statement. There is no usage of the Greek adversative found there in the text.
"If husbands love their wives, then the woman can submit or some say will naturally submit."
Might as well join the liberals and join a completely different religion.
Both commands must equally be applied.
And Ephesians isn't the only place where the Bible tells wives to submit to their husbands. St. Paul mentions it again in his letter to the Corinthians.
But St. Paul was a sexist…okay…St. Peter says, " Hey feminists, one of the ones with Christ all the time and you might as well rip out both of my inspired epistles as well. Why don't I get any attention here?"
1 Peter 3:1-5 (ESV)
"Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3 Do not let your adorning be external braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. 5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands,"
"…even if some (husbands) do not obey the word."
So as far as a family hierarchy, sure I can get behind the husband is ultimately the head and a 1st then 2nd order. But the commands themselves are synchronous. The husband can't have a legitimate expectation of his wife submissiveness to his being head if he knowingly is not following what is commanded of him. And yet the wife should continue to focus on her part.
It seems too easy for some, unfortunately, to read their leadership of the wife and family as permission for tyranny. If that's the case, then they are disobeying God. If the wife is not being submissive, she is disobeying God, but the husband is still required to love her the way Christ loves the Church.
I think drug abuse and suicide are both symptoms of the same problem, hopelessness and despair. I don't think drug abuse causes suicide as much as precedes it on the path of despair.
I also think every single person is prone to mental illness. It's just a matter of how much stress it takes to make that illness come out. Some people have mental illness with routine, daily stress. Some people do fine until you put them in a POW camp and torture them every day. But I think everyone has a breaking point. So when I look around and see more mental illness, more drug abuse, and more suicide, it makes me think that the baseline daily stress of the average person is going up. That rising tide is drowning more and more people every day and we end up with more of all these problems.
I also think every single person is prone to mental illness. It's just a matter of how much stress it takes to make that illness come out. Some people have mental illness with routine, daily stress. Some people do fine until you put them in a POW camp and torture them every day. But I think everyone has a breaking point. So when I look around and see more mental illness, more drug abuse, and more suicide, it makes me think that the baseline daily stress of the average person is going up. That rising tide is drowning more and more people every day and we end up with more of all these problems.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Thank you for sharing. Lord have mercy.
I think almost all suicides are caused by mental illness whether diagnosed or not.Klaus Schwab said:Relax, he didn't say mental illness and that is the only exception. Well he's the one that said strong Christian so any question about pride is toward the departed. Having a history of mental illness changes the view of the suicide by the Church's standards but it has to be confirmed.Jabin said:Why say that? What possible value does it add to anyone or to the poster?Klaus Schwab said:This might offend you but your father in law was not a strong Christian. He followed in the footsteps of Judas by committing suicide. It's a tragedy and the ultimate act of selfishness.Pro Sandy said:But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
Who is a "strong Christian"? Anyone that claims to be is possibly full of pride and contradicted by that very claim. Each of should be making the prayer of the tax collector, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."
Thanks to Christ that none of us have to count on being a "strong Christian" but can rely on Christ's unimaginable love, grace, and mercy.
I disagree with the Orthodox Church here as a lot of people with mental illness are not diagnosed.
I lean on mercy here.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Yikes. Very bad take right here.Klaus Schwab said:This might offend you but your father in law was not a strong Christian. He followed in the footsteps of Judas by committing suicide. It's a tragedy and the ultimate act of selfishness.Pro Sandy said:But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
It's not. Judas didn't repent and took his life. Judas was not a strong Christian. As previously stated, mental illness is the exception and should be included on the comment (maybe it was earlier, I didn't read every comment).barbacoa taco said:Yikes. Very bad take right here.Klaus Schwab said:This might offend you but your father in law was not a strong Christian. He followed in the footsteps of Judas by committing suicide. It's a tragedy and the ultimate act of selfishness.Pro Sandy said:But it is.nortex97 said:
Godlessness and drugs. Not real complicated.
My father in law died from suicide 10 months ago. Strong Christian his entire life and never even touched alcohol.
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