https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2023/11/29/2022-suicide-rate-historical-chart-comparison-graphic/71737857007/

Latests stats show that the suicide rates are the highest they've been in 80 years. About 80% of those suicides are among men.

(Getting my soapbox out of the corner and carefully standing on it)

And yet no one cares. I swear I hear every single day that being a woman is hard and life is unfair. I'm sure that's true. Life is unfair and hard for everyone. But that's a bit hard to swallow when you see the ratio of suicides is 80/20 male/female. It's almost like life is 4x worse for men so that 4x more men are willing to kill themselves.

(Now setting my soapbox upside down to catch my head as I put it in a guillotine)

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1322381/us-male-suicide-rate-by-race-and-ethnicity/

Same thing with a lot of the racial justice stuff I hear. The highest rate of suicides are Native American men. Second is white men. The lowest rates are among black, Asian, and Hispanic men. Same thoughts as before. If those groups have it so bad, then why it is that White and Native American men are killing themselves so much.

(back to regular ranting)
This is one of the biggest silent epidemics I can remember. The only other one that seems similar is abortion, but that one gets no press in some circles and plenty in others. I work in healthcare and this is never mentioned. I'm required to take human trafficking training every year, and I'm supposed to carefully watch for this. Yet in 2021, 13,000 victims of this were identified nationwide. Compare that to the 50,000 suicides, which I am not required to learn about. I can't help but feel that no one cares because the people suffering are the wrong demographic. It's a recurring point of frustration for me, because the stats are only getting worse, and nothing is being done. I'm not a crusader, but if I ever was going to start one it would be to combat this. It sort of hits me square in the face being a white male and having 2 boys that are white/Native American

It may sound a bit cruel to say, but part of the discrepancy is probably that women are all talk and men are action. Women attempt to commit suicide as a cry for help. Men commit suicide because they want to kill themselves.

About 30 years ago I knew a guy through work contacts that put his boat in the gulf and ran it as far out as it would go until it ran out of gas. It was later found adrift with some blood splatter. They believed he stood on the back and shot himself with him and the gun falling in the water. Neither were ever found. I barely knew him, but I frequently think of him when these topics come up. He had a wife and two adolescent daughters (I think). Not sure what happened. Guessing maybe she filed for divorce, or something like that. Sad, no matter what yhe reason.

This is a complicated issue. I'm in the military, and have taken care of many individuals that were suicidal, and treated some attempts, some of which were successful. I've also seen tons of sad people who just don't know how to cope in life. A few are borderline and will say/do things to get what they want, but that's another issue.

I think men are definitely struggling in society. You know I've had a little more free time lately and diving into social issues. I'm not sure the issue is who has it worse though. I think the reason people kill themselves varies. Obviously substance abuse makes a difference. As does support networks. And cultural stigma associated with suicide. So does knowing someone/being related to someone who has committed suicide.

I think the big thing that separates someone who is sad and wants to kill themselves with someone who is sad and intent on killing themselves is prospects of the future. Whether real or imagined, if you see yourself as having no way out of your current condition, suicide isn't that hard of a choice. If there's a glimmer of hope, or something you want to accomplish/see/do, someone you can reach out to if you're ever on the ledge, that all helps.

Obviously, as Win At Life said, women tend to use less lethal means and are less successful. But within the male communities you mentioned, I wonder if perceptions matter. If you are a white male, you very well may have "white privilege," but society may also be telling you that you suck for it. Or if you're native American and live on a reservation where job prospects are low, the odds of making it off the reservation or succeeding in life, supporting a family are low, why bother continuing?

I heard someone recently who stated that men don't suffer from too much masculinity these days, as the media might have you believe. It's a lack of masculinity. Men do well when they have a sense of purpose, responsibility, a family to support, and the internal drive to do whatever is necessary to support that family. Take that away from a man, and he's left with nothing. More and more boys are growing up without fathers and don't learn what it means to "Be a Man."

Another thing I heard recently is we treat male depression like female depression. Females are treated to feel loved, accepted, and safe. Men deep down want to feel more capable, and more in control.

First video: reasons why men are falling behind in society


Second video: starts at a point where they talk about men's mental health. To quote part of it "in simple terms, when a woman has a problem we ask 'what can we do to fix society,' when a man has a problem we ask 'what can men do to fix themselves' ... 'what's the point in asking men to talk if we are unwilling to listen or acknowledge the societal issues they're talking about... 'if the patriarchy is so powerful, why aren't men flourishing more ' "

This topic is unfortunately close to me. I've had four suicides quite close to me.

First was a co-worker, he was tired from chronic pain.
Second was Admiral Stearney who I worked for Bahrain.
Third was the teenage son of my boss.
Fourth was my father-in-law earlier this year.

In the military, we have mandatory suicide awareness and prevention training. All people go through it annually. Does it help? The numbers I don't find helpful as the same numbers are used to show that the military is above and below general population. I do think the military places people in situations that place them at higher risk. Deployments, high operational tempo, moving around, and access/training to firearms. There also remains the stigma that seeking help is a sign of weakness and will affect your security clearance. We must continue to fight these stigmas and encourage our people to seek help through their chain, chaplains, MFLC, FFSC, and medical.

But to the why of suicide, I recently heard a talk about it based on the work of Thomas Joiner. It said people commit suicide because they want to. Cold reality, but takes the pressure off the family who is left behind. There are three significant risk factors that we must target. The feeling of being a burden on loved ones; the sense of isolation; and, chillingly, the learned ability to hurt oneself.

How to counter them? I don't know. I struggle when I read that "suicide is preventable" on suicide prevention posters. Well intended, I just don't know if it is true. In the case of my father-in-law, he probably had an undiagnosed mental illness. Either dementia or schizophrenia for at least the last six months. He was adamant that he was broke, despite what his CPA showed him, and would turn off the heat in the house while my mother-in-law slept to try and save money. To try and calm him when he wouldn't believe his bank account statements and other assets, I told him several times that they could live with us. He said that was took much of a burner. The feeling of being a burden couldn't be broken. He felt that everyone was lying to him and that he couldn't believe what any of us told him. He stopped going to breakfast with his friends. He refused to go to church saying that his wastefulness with money was a sin too great for Jesus to forgive. He had the sense of isolation. Finally, he took his own life. We had removed the guns from his house. We wouldn't let him stay at home by himself. But where there's a will there's a way and about 10 minutes and some rope was all he needed.

Is there a crisis, absolutely, and I do feel that it is addressed. Maybe my perspective is different given my proximity to the crisis and the focus the military places on it. How to address it? I don't know. In fact, I don't think current research knows. We have 50+ years of suicide prevention research, yet rates are higher.

I don't think people are OK with it just because it primarily affects whites or men. I do think we need to teach our sons to have a sense of purpose in life and promote positive mental health.

There's a lot I don't know. But here is something that is helping me right now, mindfulness. Simple meditation practices, like 10 minutes of sitting, closing my eyes, relaxing, and praying the Lord's Prayer. Going for walks and runs on a regular basis. And redefining for myself what success looks like. I had long assumed success was doing well at work, but despite all my top rankings and awards, I felt like a failure. Trying to redefine it success as having a purpose in my work, deep meaningful relationships with friends, and good family relationships. And then when push comes to shove, brute force, such as one night when it was all too much on my mind and the bridge didn't seem like too bad of an idea, shoving my head into my pillow and saying "I want to live" over and over and over until I believed it.

If you are suffering, either with suicidal thoughts or someone you know died from suicide, you are not alone. It may feel like it, but reach out. Life is beautiful

When I first realized that suicide was a thing that people did, I remember my mom explaining to me, "Thou shalt not kill means everyone, including yourself". She was no theologian, but she was certainly raised in the Judeo-Christian worldview that many today simply are not. That frame of reference, that frame around the sanctity of life that many of us took for granted actually needed to be nurtured. So much of the meaning of life is couched as materialism these days that true, deep hopelessness seems like it will be permanent as long as you're conscious for people that are in a rough spot. The appeal of materialism and precise algorithms pumping us with images and stories of what we want (or at least what we think we want) make enjoying, appreciating or improving what we have or might reasonably obtain all the more difficult.

If I'm a guy that's not that smart, good looking, or lucky and have no social framework that steers me otherwise, what seems more appealing, taking a job washing dishes so that I can maybe take a girl who is similarly not that smart, good looking or lucky out and build a respectable legacy together, or crank one out to images online and quit thinking about it for another night? Do that for a couple of decades and you have some large slice of the bell curve in deep despair.

We've got a sick country that's for sure. Our GDP is great, but who cares? We've got out of control drug epidemics, a life expectancy below Cuba, and the suicide rate is through the roof. Our priorities are terrible.

Terminus Est said:

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We've got a sick country that's for sure. Our GDP is great, but who cares? We've got out of control drug epidemics, a life expectancy below Cuba, and the suicide rate is through the roof. Our priorities are terrible.

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I'm generally as big of a fan of market economies as you'll find, but I'm becoming more keenly aware of their limitations, and have a better appreciation for the problems they cause.

Markets give people what they want, when systems that keep you from pursuing your immediate wants break down, vice creeps in and will dominate and destroy you. That's sin in a nutshell.

chimpanzee said:

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Terminus Est said:

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We've got a sick country that's for sure. Our GDP is great, but who cares? We've got out of control drug epidemics, a life expectancy below Cuba, and the suicide rate is through the roof. Our priorities are terrible.

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I'm generally as big of a fan of market economies as you'll find, but I'm becoming more keenly aware of their limitations, and have a better appreciation for the problems they cause.

Markets give people what they want, when systems that keep you from pursuing your immediate wants break down, vice creeps in and will dominate and destroy you. That's sin in a nutshell.

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I agree, that has been my biggest personal evolution since learning my faith about 8-10 years or so ago. I've changed from "Ayn Rand was right about everything, Hank Rearden is the greatest of all time" to "market efficiency is good but not the end goal of society, and Hank Rearden is a very sad man hated by his wife and family and having an affair."

Since this is the "Religion board", I'll go "there":



As humans, we are all flawed. We are also all designed to worship. I don't have any stats but my own simple observation suggests most people do not commit suicide based on failing God. Even if you fail God through sin, Christ is always available to you for forgiveness. As such, having a properly aligned worship in a Divine that loves you regardless of your failings is one of the greatest defenses against choosing a permeant solution to a temporary and/or transient problem.

I suggest that most commit suicide out of desperation in their life for failing towards another "God" that they are presently worshiping in their life. A financial failing. A career failing. A failing in a relationship. A failing in health. The secular, nihilistic, materialistic culture that currently defines are society is the driver for the increase suicide rates that are plaguing are communities.

There's probably something to that. Most minorities have stronger religious ties than the groups that suffer most, or they have very strong cultural ties to family. I really think it's a problem of isolation. Adult men in our society are expected to work constantly, be the top earner in the household, never complain, and never ask for help. Also, nearly every previous avenue of male bonding on our society has been flooded with women who think the men are being sexist for excluding them. I think there is something important and valuable about men bonding with other men to form friendships and social networks that keeps everyone sane and accountable. Most church groups are really good about setting up this sort of thing, and it's one of the few areas where the women in the situation are happy to leave it be

Looking forward to the articles and videos when I get to them. Thanks all

TheGreatEscape said:

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The way our culture currently defines success is hurting a lot of people.

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Highly agree.

Best article I've seen about this is by Arthur Brooks called "'Success Addicts' Choose Being Special Over Being Happy." It was like he described me in it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/07/why-success-wont-make-you-happy/614731/

One line, ""Unhappy is he who depends on success to be happy," wrote Alex Dias Ribeiro, a former Formula 1 race-car driver. "For such a person, the end of a successful career is the end of the line. His destiny is to die of bitterness or to search for more success in other careers and to go on living from success to success until he falls dead. In this case, there will not be life after success.""
Then see that our highest rates of suicide is older white males. I think a large contributing factor is we spend our entire life focused on our career for success and happiness, then we reach the end and find it all lacking because we sacrificed true happiness for success and found neither.

" Another thing I heard recently is we treat male depression like female depression. Females are treated to feel loved, accepted, and safe. Men deep down want to feel more capable, and more in control."

This makes sense to me and is antithetical to the military for men. I knew three guys who took their lives within a few years timeframe. All non-combat jobs in the AF, but a horrible work environment (12 hour shifts 6 days a week were common, routine leave denial, no praise from higher ups and POS aircraft to maintain. You would also be sidelined for expressing suicidal thoughts.)

For us guys, there was no control of our lives and limited capability of our future other than getting out. Also didn't help that they started to crack down on squadron morale events, TDY's and PCSing.

Who knows if those three guys would still be alive today if things were different. But I can tell you that the military gave me the opportunity in the civilian world to not allow my job to be my identity and to not put authority figures on a pedestal, for their motives often times aren't in your best interest.

I didn't want to dive too far in dumping personal business on here but I can say, as a male, I "get" a lot of this thread on a shallow level.

As anyone knows, I have a personality here's and it somewhat mimics my real personality in that I don't have any self esteem issues. I am pretty confident about myself. You could put me next to an NFL quarterback and there is a small part of me that thinks "I might be able to out perform this guy"….i say that to highlight the fact that when I lost my job several years ago, it was awesome. I'm smart. I was looking for a job when I got that one and it would be ok.

Then it wasn't. I didn't find work for over a year, I'm not talking about working at Walmart, I'm talking about a job that kept my family in the same level of comforts and standard that I had created for them. There was absolutely a dark period where the thought of being worth more dead crossed my mind. The movie "it's a wonderful life" is one I watch annually. It hits home. My self worth went to crap. My role as a man is to provide for the family. I fix things. I make money. I make sure they want for nothing. My wife worked because she wanted to. Then she worked because she had to and that sucked.

Everything worked out and obviously, I didn't kill myself but it took my wife literally laying out the fact that I would be more useless dead. For whatever reason, that didn't really occur to me. The job I thought didn't define me…turns out it did. And while the wife and family saw it as nothing more than a temporary setback and hiccup, I felt absolutely isolated and that the entire weight of my life and theirs was squarely on my shoulders and that things would end if I didn't fix it. She didn't "get" that and I have no way of relaying that so she could understand.

I guess my point is that the feeling of being "useless" as a male is devastating and something that I don't think females truly understand. It's just built in.

I also believe a lot of suicides happen because people want them to. It was uncomfortable for me to think I might consider an alternate means of fixing my own problem but I was never sitting at a table with a pistol in my hand. I thought it but I had never fully intended it so maybe it wasn't a problem but I can absolutely see how someone could find that dark spot and go all the way without someone there to help snap them out.

For the current notes on suicide, i think it's a perfect storm of sorts between being male in 2023, economy, politics, and everything we've all outlined in the thread coming together.

Thanks for sharing that.

You know, I think this is what society lacks. This is how a man thinks. A man provides for his family. And a man takes it personally when he can't.

I know there was a while where my dad didn't have a job, and picked up a few things here and there. We were never rich, but we tightened our belts for a few years. He eventually got things going again with a business. He told me a few times how he always regretted never being able to buy me a boat, for example. I never really thought much of it, I knew we couldn't afford one, I just liked fishing and thought it would be cool to have one. But I never really realized the pain he was going through not being able to do things for us till years later.


I think it's great that women are getting into higher education and doing whatever they want in life, but I do think men are in a unique position where they're no longer being needed. A man wants to be needed. And a wants to be appreciated. He gets fulfillment by being a provider. When you take away that role from a man, you take away one of his innate purposes in life.

People say men need to be less masculine, or that we're teaching young boys toxic traits. But I think the reality is that we need need more traditional masculinity in young men these days. More men need to step up and be fathers, even if they're divorced. More men need to try and hold a family together. And men need to be there for other men. As someone mentioned above, there are fewer activities where men can be men without having women crash the party.

I think those are great points. Toxic masculinity needs make a huge comeback. I too think it's awesome that women get equal pay and they excel. But I also think we shoukd stop demonizing women that want to raise their kids and stay at home. That arrangement seems to garner more frowns than kudos now than it used to.

BrazosDog02 said:

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I think those are great points. Toxic masculinity needs make a huge comeback. I too think it's awesome that women get equal pay and they excel. But I also think we shoukd stop demonizing women that want to raise their kids and stay at home. That arrangement seems to garner more frowns than kudos now than it used to.

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Completely agree. Often times women are the most toxic to other women that choose the traditional role of a feminine, nurturing, homemaker.

One thing though, as much as I also joke about being a toxically masculine man, I do think there is such a thing as toxic masculinity. However I don't think it was people think it is. They confuse it with traditional masculinity. But I think toxic masculinity is using and abusing women, and somehow thinking the number of women you sleep with makes you more of a man. And that using, abusing, and discarding women is ok, instead of protecting and providing for them.

Unfortunately we have let feminists define what it means to be a man, and they have defined it by using the worst qualities of men. So of course no one wants to raise a child to be that. We've also let them condition young men into thinking that men and women are the same, and that women don't need a man's protection.