God's word is clear on how Israel deal with the situation

15,209 Views | 217 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by BluHorseShu
craigernaught
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AG
SirDippinDots said:

Jabin said:

craigernaught said:

SirDippinDots said:

Israel just gave an evacuation notice to northern Gaza. They are going about this as best they can.

Absolutely gross. Some of y'all have no shame.
I don't understand your point. What is gross? Why should people feel ashamed, over what? What do you think the Israeli response should be? Aren't they acting more humanely than we did at Dresden or Tokyo during WW II?


His position is to be silent on the crimes committed by Hamas and the Palestinians, and complain on all collateral damage done by Israel to protect their people.

Truly disgusting.

What

Hamas is a terrorist organization that murders civilians.

We have friends and colleagues in Palestine. Some stuck in Gaza terrified that they and their family may die at any time.

What is wrong with you?
craigernaught
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Some of y'all act like these people's lives don't matter, as if they aren't human.

I don't understand. I'll never understand.
Klaus Schwab
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Yes notice how the media will prop up false claims like 40 beheaded Jewish children and some stupid social media celebrity that got kidnapped (she didn't) but totally ignore the brutal confirmed images of dead Palestinian children. It's amazing that once again we have to live through these boomer terrorist takes.
Zobel
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The worst part is when they act like this sentiment somehow condoned or even blessed by Christianity...as if God doesn't love each and every Israeli and Palestinian more than we could possibly fathom... including the terrorists.
Klaus Schwab
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Boomer- "I don't care if we have to level the entire corner we backed them into!!! They must pay for the crimes against Israel because the evangelical preacher told me on the TV!"
Jabin
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Quote:

There is no justification for killing civilians.
That's simply not correct. Name one major war in all of human history in which civilians have not been killed. War is horrible but there is no way to wage it without killing civilians.

The US started WW 2 by condemning the Germans and Japanese for killing civilians. We were doing it ourselves by the end.
Jabin
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We have friends and colleagues in Israel. Some stuck in Gaza terrified that they and their family may die at any time at the hands of Hamas.

What is wrong with you?
Jabin
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For those of you having vapors over Israel's response, what would you do if you were Israel's Prime Minister?

It's very easy to be an armchair critic.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
I read your last post and found a lot of interesting things to engage, but I really don't think this thread is the right place for it. It's just too far afield in subject and tone from the rest of the discussion here. I'm going to start a new thread and answer you there.
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BonfireNerd04
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Jabin said:

We have friends and colleagues in Israel. Some stuck in Gaza terrified that they and their family may die at any time at the hands of Hamas.
So do I, which is part of the reason I have no sympathy towards Palestinians and their 75 years of rejecting peace offers.
ramblin_ag02
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For me the solution is simple, but probably impossible given current circumstances. It's a single non-ethnic state. Zionism is the root problem. You declare that this land belongs to a certain ethnic group, and suddenly everyone in the land who is not of that ethnic group becomes an enemy of the state. I have very little sympathy for the nation of Israel. They created a nation de novo by mass immigration, bribes, and violence. Then they get upset their nation forged in the blood of the native Arabs isn't peaceful and calm. It shouldn't be a surprise, especially when you keep most of the natives in the equivalent of giant open air prisons.

Also, if you want the Palestinians to leave the Holy Land, how? They are literally fenced in. They can't leave even if they wanted to. They don't have passports and can't legally travel to other countries. They have to get Israeli government permission to leave their reservation. I'm sure many would like to leave Gaza or the West Bank, but they really can't.

The big, legit problem in the mind of the Israelis is the long cultural memory of anti-semitism. They want more than anything in the world to have a country where they are not the minority. Somewhere where they can't be oppressed or suddenly attacked. They have their nation and their majority, but it didn't solve the problem. They are still constantly under attack. I guess they'd rather be the majority with a military than a minority in a ghetto. So maybe they think it did solve the problem. But you lose me when you use bribes, violence, and frankly evil means to accomplish that goal as has happened with the nation of Israel. Especially when you have to keep using extreme violence to maintain any semblence of order and peace.

If you want my bonafides and biases, I've never been to Israel or Palestine. But I'm a Torah following Christian that has attended Messianic synagogues in Texas and NYC, and I've celebrated the High Holy Days with Jews of all varieties I'm as sympathetic towards the Jewish people as you can be without actually being one. However, I've also had deep friendships with people whose family one generation back was born in Palestine and displaced. They did nothing wrong but got evicted to Jordan or Lebanon and had no legal status there. They eventually ended up in the US and still have family in the area.

Again, none of this should be taken as a defense of Hamas and their actions. They are horrible and inexcusable. I try to keep my mind on Christian love and peace, but Hamas and their recent actions make that very, very difficult.
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one MEEN Ag
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Jabin said:

For those of you having vapors over Israel's response, what would you do if you were Israel's Prime Minister?

It's very easy to be an armchair critic.
And here is the crux of deploying truly Christian ethics on a governmental level. The perfect Christian answer for Israel is to lay down their arms, declare peace, know that they will get slaughtered, overrun, and lose their country. To pray for their enemies in hopes that they would also turn to Christ and leave vengeance and justice up to God. And that is the Christian answer for Palestinians as well.

And that is so unpalatable on a governmental level and a complete abdication of duty to protect their own citizens from violence, that you'll never see that.

In the age of democracies and information age, as a leader you're hand is almost forced to use the military at this point.

And this is how sin wins, over and over again.
Jabin
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Good points. My thoughts when you said this:

Quote:

when you have to keep using extreme violence to maintain any semblence of order and peace.
Perhaps we in America have been lulled into thinking that extreme violence is not necessary to maintain order and peace. For most of the history of the world, extreme violence has been the norm at almost all times. In America, however, we rarely see extreme violence on our own shores with the primary notable exceptions being, of course, the Civil War and the Revolution.

I suspect that one reason that the peasants of Europe tolerated feudalism for so long is that they needed the capability of extreme violence of their feudal lords to protect them from the extreme violence of other lords and of wandering bands of armed men. When I read the history of the 30 Years War, I was horrified (as I'm sure you know, 1/3-1/2 of the population of Europe is estimated to have died during that war). People will do almost anything to protect themselves from that level of violence, even using violence right back.

And that it was I think is and has been going on in Israel. The founders of Israel personally experienced extreme violence against themselves, their family, and their community. They did not see violence against the Palestinians as immoral. After all, what alternative did they have?

It's real easy to say that Israel is wrong today. But what reasonable alternatives does it have?
Zobel
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That just excuses any and all reprisal. Zionism is not a given, it was a chosen course of action. The direct and immediate consequence was terrorism against the existing government and people living there at the time. The end goal was ethnic cleansing, one way or another. They just stopped short, and now we're un an untenable middle ground.

If you just say, since Israel did a nearly-complete ethnic cleansing, what are they supposed to do now? that begs the premise that they were justified in doing this from the get-go. But the flip side is what is a Palestinian to do now?
Redstone
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In the Levant, especially as a grandson of a woman driven away from Aleppo-

We cannot criticize radical Islam without criticizing Zionism. It is a mutually reinforcing cycle of hatred.

And what do the Christian leaders of the region say? Listen to them, not Ted Cruz, who so ridiculously rebuked them several years ago.
BonfireNerd04
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America has the luxury of being a literal ocean away from any serious threat.
Jabin
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BonfireNerd04 said:

America has the luxury of being a literal ocean away from any serious threat.
Exactly - more precisely, two oceans.
Jabin
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Quote:

But the flip side is what is a Palestinian to do now?
That's a good question to which I do not know the answer.

I'm just reacting to the posts on here that shallowly condemn Israel. Those are as bad as the posts that claim that Israel can do whatever it wants.

It's an incredibly complex problem with few good guys and lots and lots of bad guys, and the problems didn't start yesterday or in 1948. They started no later than AD 70 and arguably as early as 1406 BC, or possibly even earlier when God promised all of that already occupied land to Abraham.

Of course, those occupying the land at that time had themselves committed what folks here call genocide by displacing earlier occupants. The tells of Canaan display a history of extreme violence that goes back thousands of years prior even to the Exodus.

In some ways, the Assyrians and Babylonians may have had the only effective means of conquering territories. After their conquests, they would relocate and disperse the conquered nations, effectively ending them (except for Israel, of course) as identifiable nations or peoples. It was cruel and heartless, but it was effective.
BonfireNerd04
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It would be more accurate to say "except for Judah", since Israel was the name of the northern kingdom that was basically erased as a nation when Assyria conquered it.
Redstone
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The problem is intractable because the foundational definitions are so personally held.

Meaning, IMO
1). Christians are the people Israel, those that worshiped Logos before and after Incarnation, including Abraham and Moses
2). Islam is a Christian heresy
https://www.harvard.com/book/the_hidden_origins_of_islam_new_research_into_its_early_history/
3). Judaism post-70 AD is a new invention

If your identity is so tied into this view, or its opposition, what action works other than earnest prayer?
TTUArmy
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Is there an old testament Biblical reference which clearly states lands set aside by God for Israel? There's been this prolonged effort for a two-state solution for as long as I can remember and it seems, no matter what man tries to do to bring peace to this region, it ends in war and bloodshed. Are we getting in God's way?
Zobel
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I agree. I think the only acceptable moral response as Christians is to pray for peace and for the salvation of all. It is unacceptable to promote or support genocide on any part. The killing of innocents is not acceptable or laudable. Prior examples of our nation doing similar acts is not justifying -- we should repent. Even if we truly must kill in self defense, which does happen, that is still a reason to mourn and repent!
Zobel
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The promises made to Abraham regarding the land were completed. it says that explicitly in Joshua 21.

Quote:

Thus the Lord gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there. And the Lord gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their fathers. Not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the Lord had given all their enemies into their hands. Not one word of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.
As far as that goes, that is the end.
Redstone
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The conflict is spiritual. Christ Incarnate is the dividing line of all. To reject explicitly the Messianic claim, the very foundation of the nation-state of Israel (according to their courts, research Oswald Rufeisen) is to embrace the worldly churn of anti-Logos. Barabbas. Revolutions.

We all need Christ.
Macarthur
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When I read about this situation I can't help but think about the Tool song "Right in Two". The most pertinent line is "monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground…."
TTUArmy
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Zobel said:

The promises made to Abraham regarding the land were completed. it says that explicitly in Joshua 21.

Quote:

Thus the Lord gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there. And the Lord gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their fathers. Not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the Lord had given all their enemies into their hands. Not one word of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.
As far as that goes, that is the end.


I guess that parcel of land included the bank of the Nile all the way over to the Euphrates...and then some. Did Rome split that out during their occupation?
SirDippinDots
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Zobel said:

I agree. I think the only acceptable moral response as Christians is to pray for peace and for the salvation of all. It is unacceptable to promote or support genocide on any part. The killing of innocents is not acceptable or laudable. Prior examples of our nation doing similar acts is not justifying -- we should repent. Even if we truly must kill in self defense, which does happen, that is still a reason to mourn and repent!


Everyone would support that but it seems you define genocide as forcing Palestinians to flee northern Gaza.

Is forcing Palestinians to flee northern Gaza genocide?
Redstone
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AG
Sacraments are why the Holy Land is holy, and why it was promised to the people Israel, the people of Sacramental promise. Moses and Abraham were Trinitarians, even as we "know" more of this profound mystery.

Adam, hurled into our space / time after sin, was the first man of the Sacraments, of the Promise (Christ) of redemption, the founder of Jerusalem, and Christ (Son of Man, the new Adam) was crucified over his grave.

There are other spiritual - material connections to the land, in the context of God Incarnate, who uses the physical to grant spiritual graces (quite the continuum here, including the good thief's baptism by blood and desire).

This is the background of the fight, and those who worship Christ are the true custodians of the sacred grounds.
BonfireNerd04
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Redstone said:

Moses and Abraham were Trinitarians


Citation needed.
Redstone
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If you believe in her subjective and transcribed visions (which I do), much incredible detail here:
Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich (will be declared a Saint, and writings cannot be considered, only her holy life):

https://angelicopress.com/search?q=emmerich&options%5Bprefix%5D=last
Zobel
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Genocide means


Quote:

any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
[ol]
  • Killing members of the group;
  • Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
  • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
  • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
  • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
  • [/ol]
    Ethnic cleansing means

    Quote:

    rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area

    or

    purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas

    coercive practices can include...murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extrajudicial executions, rape and sexual assaults, severe physical injury to civilians, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, use of civilians as human shields, destruction of property, robbery of personal property, attacks on hospitals, medical personnel, and locations with the Red Cross/Red Crescent emblem, among others.
    Confining people to ghetto areas based on ethnicity checks box #3 softly in my mind, and is definitely consistent with ethnic cleansing.

    Forcing any group of people to flee their homes under threat of military action based on their ethnicity is also definitely ethnic cleansing. If resistance to that brings about acts committed with the intent to destroy that ethnic group in whole or in part, that is consistent with the definition of genocide.
    Redstone
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    AG
    Yes, definitions are critical in heated conversations.
    Ethnic cleansing - good detail.

    Now, please think through - what is Israel? It is obviously a nation-state for nearly a century. But, fundamentally, in this spiritual conflict of 2,000+ years....

    are not Christians the people Israel, if you believe the Torah points to Christ, and that Christ fulfilled the Messianic promises?
    BluHorseShu
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    AG
    one MEEN Ag said:

    Jabin said:

    For those of you having vapors over Israel's response, what would you do if you were Israel's Prime Minister?

    It's very easy to be an armchair critic.
    And here is the crux of deploying truly Christian ethics on a governmental level. The perfect Christian answer for Israel is to lay down their arms, declare peace, know that they will get slaughtered, overrun, and lose their country. To pray for their enemies in hopes that they would also turn to Christ and leave vengeance and justice up to God. And that is the Christian answer for Palestinians as well.

    And that is so unpalatable on a governmental level and a complete abdication of duty to protect their own citizens from violence, that you'll never see that.

    In the age of democracies and information age, as a leader you're hand is almost forced to use the military at this point.

    And this is how sin wins, over and over again.
    I'm pretty sure Christ doesn't call for us to lay down our arms and not protect our families and the innocent. So defending our families is a responsibility. Granted that's not a great military strategy and I do agree that we have always gotten into the gray areas of going from defense to offense and sin.
    BonfireNerd04
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    It would be nice if everyone could beat their swords into plowshares. But people who do that unilaterally tend to get forced to plow for the people who kept their swords.
    SirDippinDots
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