SirDippinDots said:

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I must say some of the posters here are not very welcoming to others coming into what they perceive as their sandbox.

In addition some posters keep saying lies like I am advocating genocide by quoting scripture that I did not write and then twisting the scripture into genocide when scripture clearly does not say that and then making me the author.

Quite the angry mob some of you come across as. I hope you are a bit nicer away from the internet.

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Win At Life said:

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Zobel said:

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The modern nation state of Israel is not the Israel of the scriptures.

And the NT teaches that not all who are (born) of Israel are Israel and that those who came to Christ are the people of God, just as those in the OT were who followed the Word.

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The second most prophesied event in scripture (after Yeshua Himself) is the destruction of the nation of Israel and the restoration of the nation of Israel, which has mostly recently occurred in 1948; the exact number of years Abraham was born after Adam. To dismiss this prophetic fulfillment as inconsequential is willfully dismissive of the power of scripture and antisemitic.

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If we want to go by ancient biblical standards, then why don't we hold modern Israel to the standards of ancient Israel? If ancient Israel behaved like modern Israel, then God would have destroyed them a hundred times over.

To start, they are secular and not religious. Say what you want about being secular, but following anything other than God Himself in the OT was idolatry.

They have a regular census and even a government department to handle this. God sent a plague on David's Israel for holding a census.

Modern Israel does not observe the Sabbath year. They don't follow the Jubilee. This was listed as the specific reason that the Babylonians were able to take over the land.

The Palestinians are repressed and treated poorly and unjustly, which was always a major sticking point for God regarding ancient Israel. Not that the Palestinians are perfect and awesome or anything, but it's pretty well documented that Israel oppresses them. They have limited means of making income, have limited freedom of movement, and are not allowed to get passports in order to move anywhere else. Their homes can be taken at any time and given to Israeli settlers. This breaks the commandments I already posted above regarding treating the strangers in the land as equals.

And that's only getting started on the topic. So if you want to grant all the promises of ancient Israel to modern Israel, then you should grant all the responsibiities and consequences too

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Well if the Palestinians ever stopped and renounced terror and did not support it in their community things would be different.

craigernaught said:

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Shocking!

Guy who thinks Israelis should ethnically cleanse Palestinians and commit genocide thinks they deserve oppression because they support terror. Also praise Jesus, the Prince of Peace.

Literally no one saw this coming.

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I see Gaza still has internet service.

dermdoc said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Numbers 33: 50 to 55

50 And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying,
51 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan;
52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it.
54 And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit.
55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be *****s in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.
56 Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them.

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We are under a new Covenant.

And God has been revealed through the life of Jesus Christ. Christ said love your enemies. I do not think Jesus wants any unnecessary bloodshed.

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I would absolutely agree, but the promises to Israel were never negated. Their very survival and emergence as an economic power are miraculous given that various empires have tried to exterminate them. That imbues Jews with no special righteousness, but does suggest the faithfulness of God in His promises.
There has been a lot of turmoil in the IDF over their roles in the West Bank. Likewise, Israeli police would ignore Palestinian labor curfew laws if employers provided sleeping accommodation for their workers. Now, the Hamas attacks will likely change the dynamics of that. The EU is looking at cancelling $728 million in aid to Palestinians, whose president, Mahmoud Abbas, revived a tired old antisemitic trope when he claimed that Israeli Jews today were descendants of Kazars. I feel for the plight of the average Palestinian who would be much better off as Israeli citizens, but that is not what most desire. The "settlers" move into Palestinian areas, and even trespass in their homes with little to no Israeli police intervention so justice for them is an ephemeral concept. And neither the PA nor the current Israeli government would have necessary political support to negotiate ways to reduce tension.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Zobel said:

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Joshua 21:43-45 says all the promises concerning the land were fulfilled.

And the modern nation state named Israel has no relationship whatever to the Israel of the scriptures.

This is just advocating for genocide. Stop.

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I did not write the scriptures. They say what they say.

Your argument is with God.

Edit: driving them out is just that. You have a total nonsense interpretation of that. If the Bible meant killing everyone it would say that but it does not. You are dishonest and willfully distorting what it says.

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Scripture does not interpret itself.

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I agree. But reasonable interpretation. Forcing people to flee is not genocide as some in this board try to argue.

I agree in the second amendment is almost absolute and many would but I would not argue people incarcerated should have firearms. I don't think I should be able to walk through the White House with a firearm, or an airport unless checking in and unloaded. There can be reasonable discussion. But some on here want to put words I other's mouth, twist scripture and make false claims.

From Oxford genocide:

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

I am done with this thread. We are just talking at each other with nobody listening. Too many people not being intellectually honest for any true discussion.

So you have your victory.

Speaking of new covenants, if a man marries a woman in Texas and then 10 years later leaves her and marries another woman in Arkansas, which of the two marriages is still valid?

Win At Life said:

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Speaking of new covenants, if a man marries a woman in Texas and then 10 years later leaves her and marries another woman in Arkansas, which of the two marriages is still valid?

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Well, since you mentioned Arkansas, I would say that first of all, marrying your sister is against God's law.

Does a second marriage abolish and replace the first marriage, making the first marriage invalid? Or in such a case is it the second marriage that is null and void?

So, you know how covenants work.

Win At Life said:

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Does a second marriage abolish and replace the first marriage, making the first marriage invalid? Or in such a case is it the second marriage that is null and void?

So, you know how covenants work.

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Generally divorce is against God's covenant. Remarriage is permitted if spouse dies (...but not if it was the other spouse who did it...)

Zobel said:

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Sigh. The first wife was faithless.

Because if this faithfulness, the people were scattered into the gentiles and lost. However, God in His infinite mercy will reconstitute Israel back from the gentiles, and as a result All Israel will be saved. Not just those of Judah, but all. And when the gentiles return, they return as people of their own nations, not as Judaeans. So in the gentiles returning as gentiles, Israel becomes the vehicle to save the whole world, all mankind. This is one of the most repeated themes in St Paul's writing.

There is no "second wife". Only the first.

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You're arguing for the exact thing Elohim knew you would argue for, which is why Elohim put Abraham to sleep and made the covenant unilaterally. Elohim never breaks His Word.

Zobel said:

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No one said anything about breaking a covenant.

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Contradictions abound. Your Jesus abolish God's Sabbath, declared all foods clean, waived away the penalty for adultery and broke many first Covenant Laws, even while claiming He was a perfect Law keeper to be a perfect sinless sacrifice.

You'll get a variety of responses over here with regard to the politics and history of the ongoing conflict, but pretty much all the regulars here who haven't been repeatedly banned don't want to see needless suffering of Israelis or Palestinians. Welcome. I hope you stay and comment.

You're thinking of PacifistAg who left Texags but still shows up every once in a while to say hi. But I think Pacifist is much younger than that.

Zobel said:

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Sigh. The first wife was faithless.

Because if this faithfulness, the people were scattered into the gentiles and lost. However, God in His infinite mercy will reconstitute Israel back from the gentiles, and as a result All Israel will be saved. Not just those of Judah, but all. And when the gentiles return, they return as people of their own nations, not as Judaeans. So in the gentiles returning as gentiles, Israel becomes the vehicle to save the whole world, all mankind. This is one of the most repeated themes in St Paul's writing.

There is no "second wife". Only the first.

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I think we've had this conversation before, but just pointing out that the Hebrew tribes being scattered and returned is not a stricly genetic, hereditary phenomenon. Old Testament Israel had a mixed multitude follow Moses out of Egypt, and in the New Testament Paul referred to Titus as his child even though it they weren't blood related. So when God cast out the upper tribes, he wasn't dispering some special genetic material into the populace but instead a special way of believing and seeing the world.

craigernaught said:

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Quote:

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I agree. But reasonable interpretation. Forcing people to flee is not genocide as some in this board try to argue.

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What do you suggest Israel does to make Palestinians flee? Where are they going to go? What if they don't leave? What country would have any incentive to cooperate with the Israelis and take them?

In your mind, you have this bizarre fantasy that the Israelis can justifiably ethnically cleanse the population that has been there for generations and has been fighting this war for it for 100+ years and that they will voluntarily leave after everything that has happened, and that Egypt and Jordan will just let millions of people enter without consequences. None of their neighbors are going to accept millions upon millions of Palestinian refugees nor are they going to take them from Israeli prison camps by force. Nor does Israel have the capacity to do that.

There are about 2 million Palestinians in Gaza, 2 million in Israel, and 3 million in the West Bank. Where do you think they will go? And how?

I know you're upset and embarrassed with how this thread has gone, but seriously, actually think about how this would work without genocide.

You don't understand how any of this works.

This is, without a doubt, one of the most insane threads and arguments I've ever seen on R&P. You my friend, seriously need to reconsider your ethics and worldview. I hope you pray to God for guidance and repentance.

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Do you know the history behind Germany's eastern border?

In 1937, the country extended much farther east. All the way to Koenigsberg (now Kaliningrad), which had been inhabited by Germans for 700 years,

But then Germany appointed a genocidal maniac as its chancellor. They started a war, and lost badly. And as punishment, Germany was stripped of a quarter of its territory. The Germans living there (even many who had never voted for the Nazis) were kicked out of their homes. As were other Eastern European German communities, including the Sudetenland in present-day Czechia.

In total, at least 12 million ethnic Germans were resettled. It was the largest forced population transfer in history. By today's standards, it's "ethnic cleansing". And yeah, it was harsh. But the thing is, it worked. It took 25 years, but Germany accepted its defeat and recognized the loss of territory. It never started another war. And isn't currently launching rocket attacks on Polish cities.

Today, Hamas is the new Nazi Party. I'm not just saying that; I mean they have the exact same rhetoric about the Jews. Sure, not all Gazans voted for Hamas, but the majority did, and thus bear responsibility for Hamas's crimes. So personally, I wouldn't complain if Gaza met the same fate as German Prussia.

If you call it "insane" or "genocide", then I ask: Why was expulsion OK when the US, UK, and Russia imposed it on Germany in 1945; but not if Israel does it today? Just recentism bias? Unawareness of history? Or something else?

Win At Life said:

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Zobel said:

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No one said anything about breaking a covenant.

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Contradictions abound. Your Jesus abolish God's Sabbath, declared all foods clean, waived away the penalty for adultery and broke many first Covenant Laws, even while claiming He was a perfect Law keeper to be a perfect sinless sacrifice.

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Technically, that was more Paul's doing than Jesus's. But yeah, Deuteronomy 13.

I don't understand people who quote questions without responding to those questions, and then ask questions of their own expecting people to answer.

Bizarre.

I admit that I don't have a good answer to the issue of where the Gazans should go. It would be a lot easier if any of the world's 50 or so Muslim-majority countries made an offer to accept them.

The surrounding countries are already hosting millions of Palestinian refugees and have for decades. I can assure you from personal experience, none of them are in any position to accept more.

You're welcome to suggest relocating millions of people from Gaza to Texas.

I don't think it's special magic blood or genetic or anything else. This concept is far from the mind of the authors of scripture. In fact I'd go as far as to say that the idea of magic blood is exactly the error being made by people who think of modern Jews as uniquely and especially God's people.

And, yeah - I'd point exactly to what you said. A mixed multitude went out of Egypt. A suspiciously high number of those in the Torah who left Egypt had non-Hebrew names, even Egyptian names. Caleb was a Kenizzite, but became an elder of Judah. So what made one an Israelite was not who your parents were, but what life you lived and who you worshipped. In other words, faithfulness to the God of Israel, as demonstrated by following His commands.

But, I disagree that those Israelites who were scattered into the gentiles maintained this faithfulness. In fact I would argue the opposite - they had been unfaithful, and because of that unfaithfulness were scattered, and their identity as a people was wholly lost. They became gentiles, truly - not by genetics, but by nomos or Torah or pattern and way of living, including worship. And this is why when they come back, they do not come back as Israelites per se - because if they did St Paul's whole premise is wrong, and those who say they must follow the Torah as Israelites would be correct. They come back as faithful people of their own nations. So the NT is working out the idea - what does it mean to be a faithful Greek Christian? How does that look? St Paul is teaching this, and it itself is is a fulfillment of prophecy (Isaiah 66, Ezekiel 34, Amos 9, Micah 4 etc). Their way of living, the nomos of being Greek, is redeemed and becomes something new. They don't become Judaeans, or Northern Israelites, but Greek Christians, Greek Israelites, as it were. And so all twelve tribes are reconstituted in the prophecy of the dry bones, the promises and commands of Deuteronomy of the people of God and nation of priests are applied to gentile Christians by the Apostles, and the faithful of the tribes are seen in the Apocalypse of John (except Dan and Ephraim, which is another story..).

This is exactly the close reading of the Torah that the council of Jerusalem takes, for what its worth. They apply the Torah strictly as written - to the sons of Israel are commands, and to foreigners dwelling among them there are commands. They apply all of the commands which apply to foreigners strictly to the gentile Christians, upholding the law strictly.

And you are correct to see that this is a familial structure. We gloss over the use of "brethren" in the NT scriptures but this is applying the social construct, and reciprocal bonds of obligation, to Christians as a family. A household with overseeing slave stewards (the episcopos) and a patriarchal head in Christ. In the end, the beautiful picture of the restored house of God is All Israel, reconstituted. Thus, the problems of death, sin, idolatry, demonic domination, and separation from God presented in the Torah are solved through the movement of God toward the creation and Mankind that He loved. It starts with a single family, which becomes a completely new nation after the others were lost. That nation, despite its own failures and faithlessness, becomes the vehicle for the union of the Divine with Man's nature, elevating Man's nature by joining it to that of God in the Incarnation. At the Cross and Resurrection death is defeated. And, through the Ascension and giving of the Holy Spirit, the cleansing of the camp and that single tribe we see in the Day of Atonement is expanded, once for all, to cleanse and reclaim the whole world from the taint of sin, bringing all Mankind back from their enslavement to the demonic powers and opening the possibility of communion with God to all. So, one family, and the offspring of one man, ultimately become the means to reunite all Mankind back to one family again - All Israel is exactly this family.

This is why the very idea of magic blood in a small group of people being used to justify the death of so many is fundamentally twisted and at odds with the entire redemptive act, the main story as it were, of God in the scriptures.