Why does the Catholic Church refer to the Pope as the "Holy Father"?

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M1Buckeye
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6:24p, 5/27/23
Jesus called God "Holy Father". Shouldn't the honor of "Holy Father" be reserved for God alone? Even Jesus frequently deferred the glory and honor to God the Father. Shouldn't the Catholic Church do the same?

John 14:28
You heard me say to you, 'I am going away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 17:11 esv
And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

Matthew 23:9 esv
And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

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Zobel
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6:56p, 5/27/23
AG
"Even if you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel."
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M1Buckeye
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7:39p, 5/27/23
It's interesting to compare and contrast the erroneous esv translation with the correct YLT translation that I will share next. As the reader will see, the YLT translation does not read that Paul referred to himself as their "father".

1 Corinthians 4:15 esv
For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
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M1Buckeye
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7:40p, 5/27/23
1 Corinthians 4:15 Young's Literal Translation

for if a myriad of child-conductors ye may have in Christ, yet not many fathers; for in Christ Jesus, through the good news, I -- I did beget you;
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Zobel
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8:07p, 5/27/23
AG
"You are my Son; today I have begotten you."
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M1Buckeye
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8:10p, 5/27/23
I'll ask again. Is it proper to call the Pope the "Holy Father" just like Jesus called God the "Holy Father"?
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to Zobel • 8:13p, 5/27/23
Zobel said:
"You are my Son; today I have begotten you."


Does your religious system forbid you from citing verses and the translation from which they came when you share scripture?
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Zobel
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8:21p, 5/27/23
AG
I mean, generally it's from memory so I don't know what translation I'm using. I read several different ones, and some are from liturgical use which aren't any specific translation.

There is nothing wrong with calling your spiritual father that. Or them calling you their spiritual son. The relationship there is established in Christ St Paul tells them they have innumerable teachers but not many fathers, and he was the one who begot them in the teaching of the faith. The person who begats is the father - he is assigning himself the title of their father in Christ. No translation variant changes that.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to Zobel • 8:46p, 5/27/23
Zobel said:
The person who begats is the father - he is assigning himself the title of their father in Christ. No translation variant changes that.


To "begat" CAN mean to "father" a child but it can also mean to "bring about".

Bad translations lead to Bibles contradicting themselves and then to the teachings of false doctrines.

Calling any human being "Holy Father" is an apostasy.

beget
/bet/
verbLITERARY
past tense: begat
1.
(typically of a man, sometimes of a man and a woman) bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.
"they hoped that the King might beget an heir by his new queen"
Similar:
father
sire
engender
generate
spawn
create
give life to
bring into being
bring into the world
have
procreate
reproduce
breed
2.
give rise to; bring about.
"success begets further success"
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Zobel
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 9:10p, 5/27/23
AG
And people endeavoring to correct the world based on their limited understanding of Greek leads to all sorts of opposite errors.

As long as you submit to no one - against the scriptures - and insist on using your own and only your own unique understanding of the scriptures - also against the scriptures - there's no point in discussion.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to Zobel • 9:17p, 5/27/23
Zobel said:
And people endeavoring to correct the world based on their limited understanding of Greek leads to all sorts of opposite errors.

As long as you submit to no one - against the scriptures - and insist on using your own and only your own unique understanding of the scriptures - also against the scriptures - there's no point in discussion.


Your Himalayan ego precludes you from acknowledging when you're wrong which, by the way, is often. And when you're proven to be wrong you spew some nonsense and then hide under your bed.
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Zobel
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 9:19p, 5/27/23
AG
Shrug. I don't ever claim to be right in my person, or because of my own particular knowledge or special insight. I am just repeating the faith of the church as faithfully as I can.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to Zobel • 9:24p, 5/27/23
So who else besides Zobel think's it's good to refer to the Pope as the "Holy Father"?
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RAB91
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9:41p, 5/27/23
'Why Do Catholics Call the Pope the "Holy Father," If the Bible Says Only Persons of the Trinity May Be Called Holy?'
https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-do-catholics-call-the-pope-the-holy-father-if-the-bible-says-only-persons-of-the-trinity-may

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M1Buckeye
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In reply to RAB91 • 9:55p, 5/27/23
RAB91 said:
'Why Do Catholics Call the Pope the "Holy Father," If the Bible Says Only Persons of the Trinity May Be Called Holy?'
https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-do-catholics-call-the-pope-the-holy-father-if-the-bible-says-only-persons-of-the-trinity-may



Thanks. The author's argument is nonsensical. Defending Catholic dogma is an impossible task.

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File5
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 11:09p, 5/27/23
AG
I do!

He's holy and our spiritual father in the church. Makes sense to me.

I suppose could call him Cool Dad, which would get around the "call no man father" bit but no matter how hard he tries he'll never be truly cool. I think I've hit on something here.

Also, what do I call my biological father? He's been like a "progenitor" to me doesn't have the same ring to it
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to File5 • 11:35p, 5/27/23
File5 said:
I do!

He's holy and our spiritual father in the church. Makes sense to me.

I suppose could call him Cool Dad, which would get around the "call no man father" bit but no matter how hard he tries he'll never be truly cool. I think I've hit on something here.

Also, what do I call my biological father? He's been like a "progenitor" to me doesn't have the same ring to it
So, regardless of what Jesus commanded, you're going to do it anyway, right?
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File5
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 12:41a, 5/28/23
AG
You aren't listening to what we're saying, simple as that
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to File5 • 1:44a, 5/28/23
File5 said:
You aren't listening to what we're saying, simple as that


On the contrary, my brother, it is you who is not listening to or following what Jesus commanded. The Catholic Church is doing EXACTLY what Jesus said NOT to do.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to File5 • 2:10a, 5/28/23
File5 said:
You aren't listening to what we're saying, simple as that


I encourage you to read Matthew 23:1-12.
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PabloSerna
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3:31p, 5/28/23
AG
M1, what you are looking for is not there.
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Dies Irae
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 3:38p, 5/28/23
M1Buckeye said:
So who else besides Zobel think's it's good to refer to the Pope as the "Holy Father"?


I do
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Dies Irae
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 3:39p, 5/28/23
M1Buckeye said:
File5 said:
You aren't listening to what we're saying, simple as that


I encourage you to read Matthew 23:1-12.


Why do Protestants call Abraham, Father Abraham?
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PabloSerna
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In reply to Dies Irae • 4:11p, 5/28/23
AG
Cause its a cool song.
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UTExan
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In reply to Dies Irae • 4:25p, 5/28/23
Dies Irae said:
M1Buckeye said:
File5 said:
You aren't listening to what we're saying, simple as that


I encourage you to read Matthew 23:1-12.


Why do Protestants call Abraham, Father Abraham?


Didn't know it was a Protestant thing, but the rich man in Jesus' account of the beggar Lazarus has a brief conversation in which the rich man calls him Father Abraham. Paul also refers to Abraham as the father of our faith. I don't recall seeing Peter being called pater by Jesus but maybe you have a better grasp of scripture to justify calling him "Father" than I do. Most of us just call Abraham by his name: Abraham.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
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Dies Irae
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In reply to UTExan • 4:32p, 5/28/23
UTExan said:
Dies Irae said:
M1Buckeye said:
File5 said:
You aren't listening to what we're saying, simple as that


I encourage you to read Matthew 23:1-12.


Why do Protestants call Abraham, Father Abraham?


Didn't know it was a Protestant thing, but the rich man in Jesus' account of the beggar Lazarus has a brief conversation in which the rich man calls him Father Abraham. Paul also refers to Abraham as the father of our faith. I don't recall seeing Peter being called pater by Jesus but maybe you have a better grasp of scripture to justify calling him "Father" than I do. Most of us just call Abraham by his name: Abraham.


How does that make any sense if we arent to call anyone Father?
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M1Buckeye
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8:18p, 5/28/23
What's consistent about Catholic doctrine is how it replaces God and Jesus with other figures.

It is a worldly system that is embraced and loved by said world. That should be cause to reconsider but it's difficult, if not impossible, for Catholics to replace Catholic doctrines with the doctrines of Christ.

May God bless you all.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to Dies Irae • 8:19p, 5/28/23
Dies Irae said:
M1Buckeye said:
So who else besides Zobel think's it's good to refer to the Pope as the "Holy Father"?


I do


So you assign the honor that Jesus gave to God the Father to the Pope. Amazing.
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Dies Irae
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 8:23p, 5/28/23
M1Buckeye said:
What's consistent about Catholic doctrine is how it replaces God and Jesus with other figures.

It is a worldly system that is embraced and loved by said world. That should be cause to reconsider but it's difficult, if not impossible, for Catholics to replace Catholic doctrines with the doctrines of Christ.

May God bless you all.


Which Catholic doctrines run counter to Christ? Please show your work.
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Dies Irae
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 8:25p, 5/28/23
M1Buckeye said:
Dies Irae said:
M1Buckeye said:
So who else besides Zobel think's it's good to refer to the Pope as the "Holy Father"?


I do


So you assign the honor that Jesus gave to God the Father to the Pope. Amazing.


No, the Pope is our spiritual Father. He is the Vicar of Christ on Earth, charge with shepherding Christ's flock in His earthly absence. What part of this is difficult for you?
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Faithful Ag
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 8:47p, 5/28/23
Quote:
"Defending Catholic dogma is an impossible task."

What's consistent about Catholic doctrine is how it replaces God and Jesus with other figures.

It is a worldly system that is embraced and loved by said world. That should be cause to reconsider but it's difficult, if not impossible, for Catholics to replace Catholic doctrines with the doctrines of Christ.

May God bless you all.


M1Buckeye - Are you interested in an actual discussion on Real Catholic doctrine & practice - or do you just want to continue to lob your attacks at the Catholic Church based on your misguided understanding and flawed interpretations? Serious question.

Your posting history has a very strong anti-Catholic bent and lacks any real attempt to engage when posters provide substantive responses. You construct straw-man arguments by misrepresenting what the Catholic Church teaches and/or drop proof-texts with only YOUR personal interpretation being worth consideration (despite evidence to the contrary seen clearly throughout church history and demonstrated scripturally and by the Apostles themselves).

You completely dismiss any discussion that goes against your preconceived ideas and you offer little to nothing to engage any poster who challenges your views (even when the poster is not Catholic).

You offer nothing to defend your attacks on the Catholic Church aside from telling us we are wrong and are misguided. If you are going to make claims and go on the attack you need to support your claims and engage the discussion.
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Faithful Ag
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 8:58p, 5/28/23
You know Zobel is not Catholic, right?? He has nothing to gain by calling the Pope "Holy Father". He is just articulating what has been practiced in the Church from the beginning and that we have received through the deposit of faith.

Using the term "Father" is not a novel concept. In fact we see it used by St. Paul in the same way IN THE BIBLE as was pointed out in this thread immediately.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to Dies Irae • 9:26p, 5/28/23
Dies Irae said:
M1Buckeye said:
Dies Irae said:
M1Buckeye said:
So who else besides Zobel think's it's good to refer to the Pope as the "Holy Father"?


I do


So you assign the honor that Jesus gave to God the Father to the Pope. Amazing.


No, the Pope is our spiritual Father. He is the Vicar of Christ on Earth, charge with shepherding Christ's flock in His earthly absence. What part of this is difficult for you?

It sounds great but it's nowhere in the Bible.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 9:28p, 5/28/23
Faithful Ag said:
You know Zobel is not Catholic, right?? He has nothing to gain by calling the Pope "Holy Father". He is just articulating what has been practiced in the Church from the beginning and that we have received through the deposit of faith.

Using the term "Father" is not a novel concept. In fact we see it used by St. Paul in the same way IN THE BIBLE as was pointed out in this thread immediately.
Ok. Jesus says not to do it but I know your first loyalty is to the Catholic Church and so you won't follow any of Jesus's commandments that conflict with the teachings of the church.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 9:29p, 5/28/23
Faithful Ag said:
Quote:
"Defending Catholic dogma is an impossible task."

What's consistent about Catholic doctrine is how it replaces God and Jesus with other figures.

It is a worldly system that is embraced and loved by said world. That should be cause to reconsider but it's difficult, if not impossible, for Catholics to replace Catholic doctrines with the doctrines of Christ.

May God bless you all.


M1Buckeye - Are you interested in an actual discussion on Real Catholic doctrine & practice - or do you just want to continue to lob your attacks at the Catholic Church based on your misguided understanding and flawed interpretations? Serious question.

Your posting history has a very strong anti-Catholic bent and lacks any real attempt to engage when posters provide substantive responses. You construct straw-man arguments by misrepresenting what the Catholic Church teaches and/or drop proof-texts with only YOUR personal interpretation being worth consideration (despite evidence to the contrary seen clearly throughout church history and demonstrated scripturally and by the Apostles themselves).

You completely dismiss any discussion that goes against your preconceived ideas and you offer little to nothing to engage any poster who challenges your views (even when the poster is not Catholic).

You offer nothing to defend your attacks on the Catholic Church aside from telling us we are wrong and are misguided. If you are going to make claims and go on the attack you need to support your claims and engage the discussion.
I've given scriptural support, which Catholics reject. So be it.
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