Dies Irae said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Dies Irae said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Dies Irae said:

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The ESV is the one you like correct? I've never heard of it, but see below

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I like the ESV for its ease of reading but I refer to better translations that aren't necessarily "easy on the eyes" when it comes to other verses, particularly those that say things like "forever", "eternal" and "everlasting".

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This one says that it was better that he was never born. Explain what that means.

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Is it possible that Jesus was speaking metaphorically and not literally?

I copied this from another site:

Of course, as we might expect, it wasn't meant to be literal, as though there were some objective weighing of Judas' life proving things would have been better had he not been born. Keener's Matthew commentary [626] notes that cursing one's own birth, or that of others, was a common metaphorical lament used for or by someone experiencing great distress or woe, both in Jewish and pagan literature (see for example Job 3:3-26). There is even a rabbinic saying that anyone whose first words upon waking are not from the Torah is better off not having been born. Obviously this concept had the status of a metaphor to indicate the experience of something tragic or awful, or else to pronounce judgment. Even to this day we use the same metaphor; Napoleon reportedly said, for example, "Better not to have been born than to live without glory."

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....and says that he has been "lost"

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That's true, my brother. The parable of the lost sheep demonstrates that none remain lost forever. Jesus never stops "looking" for all of the sheep until he has found them all. And once ALL have been found, Jesus will give the kingdom to God as described in 1 Corinthians 15.

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Paul is saying that Jesus must rule the kingdom until all have been found, corrected, and transformed. The last "enemy" to be eliminated is death, which came about after man's original sin.

28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Along these lines it's interesting to me that Revelation 22 demonstrates that, indeed, the Father and the Son of Man are ONE.

22 Then the angel[a] showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life[b] with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

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And people endeavoring to correct the world based on their limited understanding of Greek leads to all sorts of opposite errors.

As long as you submit to no one - against the scriptures - and insist on using your own and only your own unique understanding of the scriptures - also against the scriptures - there's no point in discussion.

---

Your Himalayan ego precludes you from acknowledging when you're wrong which, by the way, is often. And when you're proven to be wrong you spew some nonsense and then hide under your bed.

---

If we take you at your word, you believe you have a greater understanding of the Scriptures than basically every other Christian who has walked this world. As far as I know, you aren't fluent in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, yet you have gleaned information that scholars have all missed.

So I'm left asking...who has the bigger ego?

---

I can recognize contradictions in certain English translations. Please help me to resolve this contradiction. Which verse from The New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition is correct and which is incorrect?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and struggle because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, especially of those who believe.

---

It's not a contradiction of English translations. It's user error and one of the multitude of reasons nobody should be "me and my bible."

As I pointed out the last time you brought 1 Timothy 4:10 up, you are misunderstanding and misapplying the Scripture by ignoring all of the context of 1 Timothy 4.

As a reminder, 1 Timothy 4 notes that:

"4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons..."

Paul takes it for granted, that just as in Matthew, men will fall away from the faith and follow demons and spirits. He then transitions from that into talking about what good servants of Jesus should do and why they should do it.

It's also not a contradiction to say that God is the Savior of all, but that many will choose to reject God. This of course has all been discussed previously.

---

1 Timothy 4:10 is very plain, simple, and clear. Jesus is the savior of ALL people.

Do you not believe that?

Jesus himself said he doesn't stop looking until he has saved ALL!

Matthew 18:10-14 esv
See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.[a] 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my[b] Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

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Unlike you, I don't prooftext things out of context. I read all of 1 Timothy 4 to understand the verses, not cherry pick verses as you are doing.

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Your belief that Jesus sends people to suffer FOREVER is contrary to the scriptures and it is most definitely contrary to God's will.

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As on the other thread, this is still a blatant lie.

---

That's pretty harsh, my brother.

Do you believe that God's will can be circumvented?

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

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And people endeavoring to correct the world based on their limited understanding of Greek leads to all sorts of opposite errors.

As long as you submit to no one - against the scriptures - and insist on using your own and only your own unique understanding of the scriptures - also against the scriptures - there's no point in discussion.

---

Your Himalayan ego precludes you from acknowledging when you're wrong which, by the way, is often. And when you're proven to be wrong you spew some nonsense and then hide under your bed.

---

If we take you at your word, you believe you have a greater understanding of the Scriptures than basically every other Christian who has walked this world. As far as I know, you aren't fluent in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, yet you have gleaned information that scholars have all missed.

So I'm left asking...who has the bigger ego?

---

I can recognize contradictions in certain English translations. Please help me to resolve this contradiction. Which verse from The New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition is correct and which is incorrect?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and struggle because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, especially of those who believe.

---

It's not a contradiction of English translations. It's user error and one of the multitude of reasons nobody should be "me and my bible."

As I pointed out the last time you brought 1 Timothy 4:10 up, you are misunderstanding and misapplying the Scripture by ignoring all of the context of 1 Timothy 4.

As a reminder, 1 Timothy 4 notes that:

"4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons..."

Paul takes it for granted, that just as in Matthew, men will fall away from the faith and follow demons and spirits. He then transitions from that into talking about what good servants of Jesus should do and why they should do it.

It's also not a contradiction to say that God is the Savior of all, but that many will choose to reject God. This of course has all been discussed previously.

---

1 Timothy 4:10 is very plain, simple, and clear. Jesus is the savior of ALL people.

Do you not believe that?

Jesus himself said he doesn't stop looking until he has saved ALL!

Matthew 18:10-14 esv
See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.[a] 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my[b] Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

---

Unlike you, I don't prooftext things out of context. I read all of 1 Timothy 4 to understand the verses, not cherry pick verses as you are doing.

---

Your belief that Jesus sends people to suffer FOREVER is contrary to the scriptures and it is most definitely contrary to God's will.

---

As on the other thread, this is still a blatant lie.

---

That's pretty harsh, my brother.

Do you believe that God's will can be circumvented?

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

---

You've twice now accused me of something I've never said.

Even John 6:39 shows a conditional statement, as does much of John 6.

In fact, not even the Apostles understood it, which is why Jesus explains it further, which you seemingly missed.

"60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?" 68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him. "

So again, just as with 1 Timothy, we see absolutely consistency now from Jesus and Paul, that many will turn away from Jesus...

AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

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And people endeavoring to correct the world based on their limited understanding of Greek leads to all sorts of opposite errors.

As long as you submit to no one - against the scriptures - and insist on using your own and only your own unique understanding of the scriptures - also against the scriptures - there's no point in discussion.

---

Your Himalayan ego precludes you from acknowledging when you're wrong which, by the way, is often. And when you're proven to be wrong you spew some nonsense and then hide under your bed.

---

If we take you at your word, you believe you have a greater understanding of the Scriptures than basically every other Christian who has walked this world. As far as I know, you aren't fluent in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, yet you have gleaned information that scholars have all missed.

So I'm left asking...who has the bigger ego?

---

I can recognize contradictions in certain English translations. Please help me to resolve this contradiction. Which verse from The New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition is correct and which is incorrect?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and struggle because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, especially of those who believe.

---

It's not a contradiction of English translations. It's user error and one of the multitude of reasons nobody should be "me and my bible."

As I pointed out the last time you brought 1 Timothy 4:10 up, you are misunderstanding and misapplying the Scripture by ignoring all of the context of 1 Timothy 4.

As a reminder, 1 Timothy 4 notes that:

"4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons..."

Paul takes it for granted, that just as in Matthew, men will fall away from the faith and follow demons and spirits. He then transitions from that into talking about what good servants of Jesus should do and why they should do it.

It's also not a contradiction to say that God is the Savior of all, but that many will choose to reject God. This of course has all been discussed previously.

---

1 Timothy 4:10 is very plain, simple, and clear. Jesus is the savior of ALL people.

Do you not believe that?

Jesus himself said he doesn't stop looking until he has saved ALL!

Matthew 18:10-14 esv
See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.[a] 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my[b] Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

---

Unlike you, I don't prooftext things out of context. I read all of 1 Timothy 4 to understand the verses, not cherry pick verses as you are doing.

---

Your belief that Jesus sends people to suffer FOREVER is contrary to the scriptures and it is most definitely contrary to God's will.

---

As on the other thread, this is still a blatant lie.

---

That's pretty harsh, my brother.

Do you believe that God's will can be circumvented?

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

---

You've twice now accused me of something I've never said.

---

I didn't "accuse you", I simply asked a question.

AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Zobel said:

---

And people endeavoring to correct the world based on their limited understanding of Greek leads to all sorts of opposite errors.

As long as you submit to no one - against the scriptures - and insist on using your own and only your own unique understanding of the scriptures - also against the scriptures - there's no point in discussion.

---

Your Himalayan ego precludes you from acknowledging when you're wrong which, by the way, is often. And when you're proven to be wrong you spew some nonsense and then hide under your bed.

---

If we take you at your word, you believe you have a greater understanding of the Scriptures than basically every other Christian who has walked this world. As far as I know, you aren't fluent in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, yet you have gleaned information that scholars have all missed.

So I'm left asking...who has the bigger ego?

---

I can recognize contradictions in certain English translations. Please help me to resolve this contradiction. Which verse from The New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition is correct and which is incorrect?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and struggle because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, especially of those who believe.

---

It's not a contradiction of English translations. It's user error and one of the multitude of reasons nobody should be "me and my bible."

As I pointed out the last time you brought 1 Timothy 4:10 up, you are misunderstanding and misapplying the Scripture by ignoring all of the context of 1 Timothy 4.

As a reminder, 1 Timothy 4 notes that:

"4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons..."

Paul takes it for granted, that just as in Matthew, men will fall away from the faith and follow demons and spirits. He then transitions from that into talking about what good servants of Jesus should do and why they should do it.

It's also not a contradiction to say that God is the Savior of all, but that many will choose to reject God. This of course has all been discussed previously.

---

1 Timothy 4:10 is very plain, simple, and clear. Jesus is the savior of ALL people.

Do you not believe that?

Jesus himself said he doesn't stop looking until he has saved ALL!

Matthew 18:10-14 esv
See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.[a] 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my[b] Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

---

Unlike you, I don't prooftext things out of context. I read all of 1 Timothy 4 to understand the verses, not cherry pick verses as you are doing.

---

Your belief that Jesus sends people to suffer FOREVER is contrary to the scriptures and it is most definitely contrary to God's will.

---

As on the other thread, this is still a blatant lie.

---

That's pretty harsh, my brother.

Do you believe that God's will can be circumvented?

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

---

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

So again, just as with 1 Timothy, we see absolutely consistency now from Jesus and Paul, that many will turn away from Jesus...

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Yes, my brother, you are correct and the Bible proves that you are correct. Not all of Jesus's disciples remained with him. Some followed for a time and then dropped out. That is not in dispute.

And it's also true that many "turn away" from Jesus. They will be judged and condemned, but it won't be FOREVER. But, again, don't take my word for it. What does the Bible say?

2 Samuel 14:14 esv
We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

Lamentations 3:31 esv
For the Lord will not cast off forever

Dies Irae said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Dies Irae said:

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The ESV is the one you like correct? I've never heard of it, but see below

---

I like the ESV for its ease of reading but I refer to better translations that aren't necessarily "easy on the eyes" when it comes to other verses, particularly those that say things like "forever", "eternal" and "everlasting".

---

This one says that it was better that he was never born. Explain what that means.

---

Ecclesiastes 6:3
English Standard Version
3 If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, so that the days of his years are many, but his soul is not satisfied with life's good things, and he also has no burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he.

It's possible that Jesus was saying that it would have been better for Judas if he had been a stillborn, not that he should never have existed.

Faithful Ag said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Bad translations lead to Bibles contradicting themselves and then to the teachings of false doctrines.

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I think this is what lies at the heart of your issues and highlights where you get it fundamentally wrong, M1. Jesus Christ did not directly leave us a book requiring perfect translation. Jesus Christ left us His Church and sent the Holy Ghost to guide and protect His Church. Period. Full stop.

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I'm sorry to disagree with you, my brother. Paul tells us that scripture is from God and that we can use it to compare to doctrines being taught by man in order to know if that doctrine is consistent with God's word.

1 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work.

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You take so much for granted, M1. Before we argue translations and the ESV vs. YLT vs. KJV, etc we need to know from where you received your scriptures.

How do you know what writings are considered scripture? What IS Scripture? How many books are in your Bible? How did they get there? What gives you confidence that what you hold as scripture is complete with nothing extra and nothing missing?

When Paul said scripture is from God to what was he referring? The Old Testament? The Septuagint? The Gospels? What he had already written? What he was currently writing in that moment? What he would write in the future?

Before we nitpick and debate translations, it would be helpful to know WHAT IS SCRIPTURE. Otherwise we are just getting ahead of ourselves.

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Well, Paul isn't available to tell us as to EXACTLY "which" scriptures he was referencing.

I have FAITH that the original Bible, compiled by the early church, was put together with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Is it your view that some books in the Bible aren't inspired by God? I'm not accusing, I'm simply asking.

Quote:

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Well, Paul isn't available to tell us as to EXACTLY "which" scriptures he was referencing.

I have FAITH that the original Bible, compiled by the early church, was put together with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Is it your view that some books in the Bible aren't inspired by God? I'm not accusing, I'm simply asking.

---

Again, you take your YLT Bible completely for granted and I think you are completely ignorant of Scriptural history. I don't think you have the ability to make a case to support your Biblical Canon that would hold up under basic historical scrutiny. Before you lecture everyone else about the apparent flaws in some translation let's step back and make sure we are on common ground as to WHAT is Scripture.

1. How many books are in your Bible?
OT =
NT=
OT + NT =

2. WHEN did this early church put the Bible together?

3. WHO was this early church?

4. What happened to this early church? Where did it go?

5. Is the Holy Ghost still guide if and protecting this church?


You admittedly don't know what Paul was referring to as Scripture, but at the same time YOU are using 1 Timothy 3:16-17 to support whatever you believe is scripture today. That is not how scriptural support works. You cannot just proof text your way through theology plucking random verses from here and there to prove anything. For the first millennium there weren't even chapters and verses to be able to reference.

I look forward to your answers to the 5 questions above.

Faithful Ag said:

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Quote:

---

Well, Paul isn't available to tell us as to EXACTLY "which" scriptures he was referencing.

I have FAITH that the original Bible, compiled by the early church, was put together with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Is it your view that some books in the Bible aren't inspired by God? I'm not accusing, I'm simply asking.

---

Again, you take your YLT Bible completely for granted and I think you are completely ignorant of Scriptural history. I don't think you have the ability to make a case to support your Biblical Canon that would hold up under basic historical scrutiny. Before you lecture everyone else about the apparent flaws in some translation let's step back and make sure we are on common ground as to WHAT is Scripture.

1. How many books are in your Bible?
OT =
NT=
OT + NT =

2. WHEN did this early church put the Bible together?

3. WHO was this early church?

4. What happened to this early church? Where did it go?

5. Is the Holy Ghost still guide if and protecting this church?


You admittedly don't know what Paul was referring to as Scripture, but at the same time YOU are using 1 Timothy 3:16-17 to support whatever you believe is scripture today. That is not how scriptural support works. You cannot just proof text your way through theology plucking random verses from here and there to prove anything. For the first millennium there weren't even chapters and verses to be able to reference.

I look forward to your answers to the 5 questions above.

---

I'll pass.

I'll stick with the scriptures. If you don't accept the scriptures then we don't have a foundation on which to build.

M1Buckeye said:

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Faithful Ag said:

---

Quote:

---

Well, Paul isn't available to tell us as to EXACTLY "which" scriptures he was referencing.

I have FAITH that the original Bible, compiled by the early church, was put together with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Is it your view that some books in the Bible aren't inspired by God? I'm not accusing, I'm simply asking.

---

Again, you take your YLT Bible completely for granted and I think you are completely ignorant of Scriptural history. I don't think you have the ability to make a case to support your Biblical Canon that would hold up under basic historical scrutiny. Before you lecture everyone else about the apparent flaws in some translation let's step back and make sure we are on common ground as to WHAT is Scripture.

1. How many books are in your Bible?
OT =
NT=
OT + NT =

2. WHEN did this early church put the Bible together?

3. WHO was this early church?

4. What happened to this early church? Where did it go?

5. Is the Holy Ghost still guide if and protecting this church?


You admittedly don't know what Paul was referring to as Scripture, but at the same time YOU are using 1 Timothy 3:16-17 to support whatever you believe is scripture today. That is not how scriptural support works. You cannot just proof text your way through theology plucking random verses from here and there to prove anything. For the first millennium there weren't even chapters and verses to be able to reference.

I look forward to your answers to the 5 questions above.

---

I'll pass.

I'll stick with the scriptures. If you don't accept the scriptures then we don't have a foundation on which to build.

---

You are missing the entire point. Your ignorance is on FULL display. You are missing the beam in your own eye and focused on the splinters.

I absolutely DO accept the Scriptures. 100%. You are the one who refuses to even answer a few simple foundational questions.


I'll even simplify them for you:


1. How many books are in your Bible?
OT =
NT=
OT + NT =

Edit to scratch #2. Just answer question #1. What composes the scriptures?

Faithful Ag said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Faithful Ag said:

---

Quote:

---

Well, Paul isn't available to tell us as to EXACTLY "which" scriptures he was referencing.

I have FAITH that the original Bible, compiled by the early church, was put together with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Is it your view that some books in the Bible aren't inspired by God? I'm not accusing, I'm simply asking.

---

Again, you take your YLT Bible completely for granted and I think you are completely ignorant of Scriptural history. I don't think you have the ability to make a case to support your Biblical Canon that would hold up under basic historical scrutiny. Before you lecture everyone else about the apparent flaws in some translation let's step back and make sure we are on common ground as to WHAT is Scripture.

1. How many books are in your Bible?
OT =
NT=
OT + NT =

2. WHEN did this early church put the Bible together?

3. WHO was this early church?

4. What happened to this early church? Where did it go?

5. Is the Holy Ghost still guide if and protecting this church?


You admittedly don't know what Paul was referring to as Scripture, but at the same time YOU are using 1 Timothy 3:16-17 to support whatever you believe is scripture today. That is not how scriptural support works. You cannot just proof text your way through theology plucking random verses from here and there to prove anything. For the first millennium there weren't even chapters and verses to be able to reference.

I look forward to your answers to the 5 questions above.

---

I'll pass.

I'll stick with the scriptures. If you don't accept the scriptures then we don't have a foundation on which to build.

---

You are missing the entire point. Your ignorance is on FULL display. You are missing the beam in your own eye and focused on the splinters.

I absolutely DO accept the Scriptures. 100%. You are the one who refuses to even answer a few simple foundational questions.


I'll even simplify them for you:


1. How many books are in your Bible?
OT =
NT=
OT + NT =

Edit to scratch #2. Just answer question #1. What composes the scriptures?

---

No thanks. I enjoy healthy, honest, doctrinal discussions to better understand the word of God but and your sidekick aren't here for that.

If anyone else has a sincere question I'll be happy to engage.

Quote:

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No thanks. I enjoy healthy, honest, doctrinal discussions to better understand the word of God but and your sidekick aren't here for that.

---

Simple straight forward question, what did you hope to achieve with this thread?

jkag89 said:

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Quote:

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No thanks. I enjoy healthy, honest, doctrinal discussions to better understand the word of God but and your sidekick aren't here for that.

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Simple straight forward question, what did you hope to achieve with this thread?

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To demonstrate that it's wrong to glorify and exalt a sinful man with the title "Holy Father" that Jesus used to describe God the Father, our creator and the creator of the universe.

What did you hope would happen once you "demonstrated" this?

M1Buckeye said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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Quote:

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Well, Paul isn't available to tell us as to EXACTLY "which" scriptures he was referencing.

I have FAITH that the original Bible, compiled by the early church, was put together with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Is it your view that some books in the Bible aren't inspired by God? I'm not accusing, I'm simply asking.

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Again, you take your YLT Bible completely for granted and I think you are completely ignorant of Scriptural history. I don't think you have the ability to make a case to support your Biblical Canon that would hold up under basic historical scrutiny. Before you lecture everyone else about the apparent flaws in some translation let's step back and make sure we are on common ground as to WHAT is Scripture.

1. How many books are in your Bible?
OT =
NT=
OT + NT =

2. WHEN did this early church put the Bible together?

3. WHO was this early church?

4. What happened to this early church? Where did it go?

5. Is the Holy Ghost still guide if and protecting this church?


You admittedly don't know what Paul was referring to as Scripture, but at the same time YOU are using 1 Timothy 3:16-17 to support whatever you believe is scripture today. That is not how scriptural support works. You cannot just proof text your way through theology plucking random verses from here and there to prove anything. For the first millennium there weren't even chapters and verses to be able to reference.

I look forward to your answers to the 5 questions above.

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I'll pass.

I'll stick with the scriptures. If you don't accept the scriptures then we don't have a foundation on which to build.

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jkag89 said:

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What did you hope would happen once you "demonstrated" this?

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It was/is my hope that Catholics will reserve praise and glory for God rather than exalting men to the same or even higher level than he.

Jesus commands us NOT to exalt religious men. They're no better than the rest of us. I provided the scriptures. All of you reject his commandment. So be it.

Guess Matthew didn't understand...

The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah
1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.[a]
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, 3 and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram,[b] 4 and Ram[c] the father of Amminadab, and Amminadab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon, 5 and Salmon the father of Boaz by Rahab, and Boaz the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse, 6 and Jesse the father of David the king.
And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uriah, 7 and Solomon the father of Rehoboam, and Rehoboam the father of Abijah, and Abijah the father of Asa,[d] 8 and Asa[e] the father of Jehoshaphat, and Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzziah, 9 and Uzziah the father of Jotham, and Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezekiah, 10 and Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, and Manasseh the father of Amos,[f] and Amos[g] the father of Josiah, 11 and Josiah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.
12 And after the deportation to Babylon: Jechoniah was the father of She-alti-el,[h] and She-alti-el[i] the father of Zerubbabel, 13 and Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, and Abiud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor, 14 and Azor the father of Zadok, and Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud, 15 and Eliud the father of Eleazar, and Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob, 16 and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.[j]

If this is what you truly hope to accomplish, I suggest you find a less brash manner in which to convey this. It is not as if we are not aware the the bits of scripture you cited in your OP.

Dies Irae said:

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I have never understood the position that the Holy Spirit would intervene and guide the Church in separating the books of the Bible from the rest of the letters and epistles that didn't make it in, and then would depart and let the highly allegorical, chock full of parable, easily misinterpret-able work be interpreted a zillion different ways.

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Agreed. Home Depot is sufficiently equipped to build a house. You don't want the house I would build if I was left with nothing but their equipment and no teaching about how to do it. (and unfortunately this is sometimes the case anyway with my weekend plumbing/electrical projects. The wife would love for me to take a class instead of using my best estimations).

What is this thread, the Thirty Years' War Part 2?

M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

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And people endeavoring to correct the world based on their limited understanding of Greek leads to all sorts of opposite errors.

As long as you submit to no one - against the scriptures - and insist on using your own and only your own unique understanding of the scriptures - also against the scriptures - there's no point in discussion.

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Your Himalayan ego precludes you from acknowledging when you're wrong which, by the way, is often. And when you're proven to be wrong you spew some nonsense and then hide under your bed.

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If we take you at your word, you believe you have a greater understanding of the Scriptures than basically every other Christian who has walked this world. As far as I know, you aren't fluent in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, yet you have gleaned information that scholars have all missed.

So I'm left asking...who has the bigger ego?

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I can recognize contradictions in certain English translations. Please help me to resolve this contradiction. Which verse from The New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition is correct and which is incorrect?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and struggle because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, especially of those who believe.

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It's not a contradiction of English translations. It's user error and one of the multitude of reasons nobody should be "me and my bible."

As I pointed out the last time you brought 1 Timothy 4:10 up, you are misunderstanding and misapplying the Scripture by ignoring all of the context of 1 Timothy 4.

As a reminder, 1 Timothy 4 notes that:

"4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons..."

Paul takes it for granted, that just as in Matthew, men will fall away from the faith and follow demons and spirits. He then transitions from that into talking about what good servants of Jesus should do and why they should do it.

It's also not a contradiction to say that God is the Savior of all, but that many will choose to reject God. This of course has all been discussed previously.

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1 Timothy 4:10 is very plain, simple, and clear. Jesus is the savior of ALL people.

Do you not believe that?

Jesus himself said he doesn't stop looking until he has saved ALL!

Matthew 18:10-14 esv
See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.[a] 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my[b] Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

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Unlike you, I don't prooftext things out of context. I read all of 1 Timothy 4 to understand the verses, not cherry pick verses as you are doing.

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Your belief that Jesus sends people to suffer FOREVER is contrary to the scriptures and it is most definitely contrary to God's will.

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As on the other thread, this is still a blatant lie.

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That's pretty harsh, my brother.

Do you believe that God's will can be circumvented?

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

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66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

So again, just as with 1 Timothy, we see absolutely consistency now from Jesus and Paul, that many will turn away from Jesus...

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Yes, my brother, you are correct and the Bible proves that you are correct. Not all of Jesus's disciples remained with him. Some followed for a time and then dropped out. That is not in dispute.

And it's also true that many "turn away" from Jesus. They will be judged and condemned, but it won't be FOREVER. But, again, don't take my word for it. What does the Bible say?

2 Samuel 14:14 esv
We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

Lamentations 3:31 esv
For the Lord will not cast off forever

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You don't get to avoid the question that easily.

The Scripture says that Jesus makes it clear that they will turn away from Him. You're argument is that eventually they will turn back to Jesus in this life or the next. Prove it.

Relying on the OT to justify Jesus in the NT is going about it the wrong way. The OT speaks to the coming of Jesus. It's within that lens that you then make category errors with the verses you prooftext out of context.

Lets look at the context of Lamentations:

31 For the Lord will not
cast off forever,
32 but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion
according to the abundance of his steadfast love;
33 for he does not afflict from his heart
or grieve the children of men.

We would look at this and point to Jesus saying, that Jesus is the Justification/Atonement of all man kind. He is the fulfillment of this verse.

however, that answers the wrong question. Most everyone here agrees that the life, death and resurrection of Jesus is for all....but that says nothing of man rejecting God and walking away as occurs in John 6. So you have not proved anything so far.

Faithful Ag said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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Quote:

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Well, Paul isn't available to tell us as to EXACTLY "which" scriptures he was referencing.

I have FAITH that the original Bible, compiled by the early church, was put together with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Is it your view that some books in the Bible aren't inspired by God? I'm not accusing, I'm simply asking.

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Again, you take your YLT Bible completely for granted and I think you are completely ignorant of Scriptural history. I don't think you have the ability to make a case to support your Biblical Canon that would hold up under basic historical scrutiny. Before you lecture everyone else about the apparent flaws in some translation let's step back and make sure we are on common ground as to WHAT is Scripture.

1. How many books are in your Bible?
OT =
NT=
OT + NT =

2. WHEN did this early church put the Bible together?

3. WHO was this early church?

4. What happened to this early church? Where did it go?

5. Is the Holy Ghost still guide if and protecting this church?


You admittedly don't know what Paul was referring to as Scripture, but at the same time YOU are using 1 Timothy 3:16-17 to support whatever you believe is scripture today. That is not how scriptural support works. You cannot just proof text your way through theology plucking random verses from here and there to prove anything. For the first millennium there weren't even chapters and verses to be able to reference.

I look forward to your answers to the 5 questions above.

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I'll pass.

I'll stick with the scriptures. If you don't accept the scriptures then we don't have a foundation on which to build.

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You are missing the entire point. Your ignorance is on FULL display. You are missing the beam in your own eye and focused on the splinters.

I absolutely DO accept the Scriptures. 100%. You are the one who refuses to even answer a few simple foundational questions.


I'll even simplify them for you:


1. How many books are in your Bible?
OT =
NT=
OT + NT =

Edit to scratch #2. Just answer question #1. What composes the scriptures?

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No thanks. I enjoy healthy, honest, doctrinal discussions to better understand the word of God but and your sidekick aren't here for that.

If anyone else has a sincere question I'll be happy to engage.

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Just so I understand you clearly. You want to use Scripture to have "honest, doctrinal discussions" to better understand the word of God, BUT YOU REFUSE to tell me which books you consider to be scripture.

That is my sincere question. I reduced it to be only that one, simple question. How many books are in your Bible?

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Buckeye believes in the 88 books of the bible. And no, its not because he's Ethiopian Oriental Orthodox. Its the Original 66 (TM) of the bible + the top 21 best sellers between Andy Stanley, John Piper, Rob Bell, Mark Driscoll, and Francis Chan. Also, one Beth Moore bible study.

M1Buckeye said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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Quote:

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"Defending Catholic dogma is an impossible task."

What's consistent about Catholic doctrine is how it replaces God and Jesus with other figures.

It is a worldly system that is embraced and loved by said world. That should be cause to reconsider but it's difficult, if not impossible, for Catholics to replace Catholic doctrines with the doctrines of Christ.

May God bless you all.

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M1Buckeye - Are you interested in an actual discussion on Real Catholic doctrine & practice - or do you just want to continue to lob your attacks at the Catholic Church based on your misguided understanding and flawed interpretations? Serious question.

Your posting history has a very strong anti-Catholic bent and lacks any real attempt to engage when posters provide substantive responses. You construct straw-man arguments by misrepresenting what the Catholic Church teaches and/or drop proof-texts with only YOUR personal interpretation being worth consideration (despite evidence to the contrary seen clearly throughout church history and demonstrated scripturally and by the Apostles themselves).

You completely dismiss any discussion that goes against your preconceived ideas and you offer little to nothing to engage any poster who challenges your views (even when the poster is not Catholic).

You offer nothing to defend your attacks on the Catholic Church aside from telling us we are wrong and are misguided. If you are going to make claims and go on the attack you need to support your claims and engage the discussion.

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I've given scriptural support, which Catholics reject. So be it.

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Its not rejection of scripture but rather the interpretation of it. Catholic doctrine, first and foremost cannot contradict scripture.

Quote:

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Its not rejection of scripture but rather the interpretation of it. Catholic doctrine, first and foremost cannot contradict scripture.

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It doesn't...Protestant doctrine, OTOH does....Specifically John 6...

Thaddeus73 said:

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Quote:

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Its not rejection of scripture but rather the interpretation of it. Catholic doctrine, first and foremost cannot contradict scripture.

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It doesn't...Protestant doctrine, OTOH does....Specifically John 6...

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John 6 has 70 verses. Can you be a little more specific.

BluHorseShu said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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Quote:

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"Defending Catholic dogma is an impossible task."

What's consistent about Catholic doctrine is how it replaces God and Jesus with other figures.

It is a worldly system that is embraced and loved by said world. That should be cause to reconsider but it's difficult, if not impossible, for Catholics to replace Catholic doctrines with the doctrines of Christ.

May God bless you all.

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M1Buckeye - Are you interested in an actual discussion on Real Catholic doctrine & practice - or do you just want to continue to lob your attacks at the Catholic Church based on your misguided understanding and flawed interpretations? Serious question.

Your posting history has a very strong anti-Catholic bent and lacks any real attempt to engage when posters provide substantive responses. You construct straw-man arguments by misrepresenting what the Catholic Church teaches and/or drop proof-texts with only YOUR personal interpretation being worth consideration (despite evidence to the contrary seen clearly throughout church history and demonstrated scripturally and by the Apostles themselves).

You completely dismiss any discussion that goes against your preconceived ideas and you offer little to nothing to engage any poster who challenges your views (even when the poster is not Catholic).

You offer nothing to defend your attacks on the Catholic Church aside from telling us we are wrong and are misguided. If you are going to make claims and go on the attack you need to support your claims and engage the discussion.

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I've given scriptural support, which Catholics reject. So be it.

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Its not rejection of scripture but rather the interpretation of it. Catholic doctrine, first and foremost cannot contradict scripture.

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Saying Catholic doctrine cannot contradict scripture is a non starter for anyone not catholic. If I actually believed that the catholic church was infallible I'd already be Catholic.

It's a pointless argument.

John 6

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to youthey are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God."

Faithful Ag said:

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John 6

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to youthey are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God."

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What does that have to do with the "Father" moniker?

Ol_Ag_02 said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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John 6

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to youthey are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God."

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What does that have to do with the "Father" moniker?

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Nothing, merely that Protestants are the ones listen in verse 60.