Dies Irae said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Dies Irae said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Dies Irae said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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So who else besides Zobel think's it's good to refer to the Pope as the "Holy Father"?

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I do

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So you assign the honor that Jesus gave to God the Father to the Pope. Amazing.

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No, the Pope is our spiritual Father. He is the Vicar of Christ on Earth, charge with shepherding Christ's flock in His earthly absence. What part of this is difficult for you?

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It sounds great but it's nowhere in the Bible.

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Its literally in the Gospel of John, chapter 21

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M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

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And people endeavoring to correct the world based on their limited understanding of Greek leads to all sorts of opposite errors.

As long as you submit to no one - against the scriptures - and insist on using your own and only your own unique understanding of the scriptures - also against the scriptures - there's no point in discussion.

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Your Himalayan ego precludes you from acknowledging when you're wrong which, by the way, is often. And when you're proven to be wrong you spew some nonsense and then hide under your bed.

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

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And people endeavoring to correct the world based on their limited understanding of Greek leads to all sorts of opposite errors.

As long as you submit to no one - against the scriptures - and insist on using your own and only your own unique understanding of the scriptures - also against the scriptures - there's no point in discussion.

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Your Himalayan ego precludes you from acknowledging when you're wrong which, by the way, is often. And when you're proven to be wrong you spew some nonsense and then hide under your bed.

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If we take you at your word, you believe you have a greater understanding of the Scriptures than basically every other Christian who has walked this world. As far as I know, you aren't fluent in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, yet you have gleaned information that scholars have all missed.

So I'm left asking...who has the bigger ego?

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Sapper Redux said:

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The originals used are themselves translations or copies.

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AgLiving06 said:

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Most modern Christian denominations (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, etc) also train their new Pastors and Theologians in the original languages so they can see the original wording.

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Dies Irae said:

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I have never understood the position that the Holy Spirit would intervene and guide the Church in separating the books of the Bible from the rest of the letters and epistles that didn't make it in, and then would depart and let the highly allegorical, chock full of parable, easily misinterpret-able work be interpreted a zillion different ways.

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Faithful Ag said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Bad translations lead to Bibles contradicting themselves and then to the teachings of false doctrines.

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ETA: False doctrine comes from bad interpretation made even worse because you are attempting to interpret the scriptures apart from the apostolic church and her historical understandings and traditions. We call them the Church FATHERS for a reason.

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Faithful Ag said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Bad translations lead to Bibles contradicting themselves and then to the teachings of false doctrines.

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I think this is what lies at the heart of your issues and highlights where you get it fundamentally wrong, M1. Jesus Christ did not directly leave us a book requiring perfect translation. Jesus Christ left us His Church and sent the Holy Ghost to guide and protect His Church. Period. Full stop.

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Dies Irae said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Dies Irae said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Dies Irae said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

So who else besides Zobel think's it's good to refer to the Pope as the "Holy Father"?

---

I do

---

So you assign the honor that Jesus gave to God the Father to the Pope. Amazing.

---

No, the Pope is our spiritual Father. He is the Vicar of Christ on Earth, charge with shepherding Christ's flock in His earthly absence. What part of this is difficult for you?

---

It sounds great but it's nowhere in the Bible.

---

Its literally in the Gospel of John, chapter 21

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Zobel said:

---

And people endeavoring to correct the world based on their limited understanding of Greek leads to all sorts of opposite errors.

As long as you submit to no one - against the scriptures - and insist on using your own and only your own unique understanding of the scriptures - also against the scriptures - there's no point in discussion.

---

Your Himalayan ego precludes you from acknowledging when you're wrong which, by the way, is often. And when you're proven to be wrong you spew some nonsense and then hide under your bed.

---

If we take you at your word, you believe you have a greater understanding of the Scriptures than basically every other Christian who has walked this world. As far as I know, you aren't fluent in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, yet you have gleaned information that scholars have all missed.

So I'm left asking...who has the bigger ego?

---

I can recognize contradictions in certain English translations. Please help me to resolve this contradiction. Which verse from The New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition is correct and which is incorrect?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and struggle because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, especially of those who believe.

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Sapper Redux said:

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The originals used are themselves translations or copies.

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Zobel said:

---

And people endeavoring to correct the world based on their limited understanding of Greek leads to all sorts of opposite errors.

As long as you submit to no one - against the scriptures - and insist on using your own and only your own unique understanding of the scriptures - also against the scriptures - there's no point in discussion.

---

Your Himalayan ego precludes you from acknowledging when you're wrong which, by the way, is often. And when you're proven to be wrong you spew some nonsense and then hide under your bed.

---

If we take you at your word, you believe you have a greater understanding of the Scriptures than basically every other Christian who has walked this world. As far as I know, you aren't fluent in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, yet you have gleaned information that scholars have all missed.

So I'm left asking...who has the bigger ego?

---

I can recognize contradictions in certain English translations. Please help me to resolve this contradiction. Which verse from The New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition is correct and which is incorrect?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and struggle because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, especially of those who believe.

---

It's not a contradiction of English translations. It's user error and one of the multitude of reasons nobody should be "me and my bible."

As I pointed out the last time you brought 1 Timothy 4:10 up, you are misunderstanding and misapplying the Scripture by ignoring all of the context of 1 Timothy 4.

As a reminder, 1 Timothy 4 notes that:

"4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons..."

Paul takes it for granted, that just as in Matthew, men will fall away from the faith and follow demons and spirits. He then transitions from that into talking about what good servants of Jesus should do and why they should do it.

It's also not a contradiction to say that God is the Savior of all, but that many will choose to reject God. This of course has all been discussed previously.

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AgLiving06 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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The originals used are themselves translations or copies.

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That's a bit of a red herring for this discussion.

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M1Buckeye said:

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So it begs the question, why hasn't the Pope and his army of scholars, corrected the heresy of eternal conscious torment (ECT)? That false doctrine contradicts a plethora of scripture, so why hasn't the church corrected it? Again, this is why we need the original scriptures (accurately translated) in order to know which doctrines are from God and which are not.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work.

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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The originals used are themselves translations or copies.

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That's a bit of a red herring for this discussion.

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It's a fact. And that's why we need to diligently examine the contents of various Bible translations to discover which are most accurate. Most English translations are very poor translations as evidenced NOT by my understanding of Greek (which is none) but by the obvious contradictions that those poor translations produce.

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

---

And people endeavoring to correct the world based on their limited understanding of Greek leads to all sorts of opposite errors.

As long as you submit to no one - against the scriptures - and insist on using your own and only your own unique understanding of the scriptures - also against the scriptures - there's no point in discussion.

---

Your Himalayan ego precludes you from acknowledging when you're wrong which, by the way, is often. And when you're proven to be wrong you spew some nonsense and then hide under your bed.

---

If we take you at your word, you believe you have a greater understanding of the Scriptures than basically every other Christian who has walked this world. As far as I know, you aren't fluent in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, yet you have gleaned information that scholars have all missed.

So I'm left asking...who has the bigger ego?

---

I can recognize contradictions in certain English translations. Please help me to resolve this contradiction. Which verse from The New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition is correct and which is incorrect?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and struggle because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, especially of those who believe.

---

It's not a contradiction of English translations. It's user error and one of the multitude of reasons nobody should be "me and my bible."

As I pointed out the last time you brought 1 Timothy 4:10 up, you are misunderstanding and misapplying the Scripture by ignoring all of the context of 1 Timothy 4.

As a reminder, 1 Timothy 4 notes that:

"4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons..."

Paul takes it for granted, that just as in Matthew, men will fall away from the faith and follow demons and spirits. He then transitions from that into talking about what good servants of Jesus should do and why they should do it.

It's also not a contradiction to say that God is the Savior of all, but that many will choose to reject God. This of course has all been discussed previously.

---

1 Timothy 4:10 is very plain, simple, and clear. Jesus is the savior of ALL people.

Do you not believe that?

Jesus himself said he doesn't stop looking until he has saved ALL!

Matthew 18:10-14 esv
See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.[a] 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my[b] Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

---

Dies Irae said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

So it begs the question, why hasn't the Pope and his army of scholars, corrected the heresy of eternal conscious torment (ECT)? That false doctrine contradicts a plethora of scripture, so why hasn't the church corrected it? Again, this is why we need the original scriptures (accurately translated) in order to know which doctrines are from God and which are not.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work.

---

Because it isn't false. I've asked you again. It says Judas is the son of perdition and it would have been better if he had not been born. What does that mean?

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AgLiving06 said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Zobel said:

---

And people endeavoring to correct the world based on their limited understanding of Greek leads to all sorts of opposite errors.

As long as you submit to no one - against the scriptures - and insist on using your own and only your own unique understanding of the scriptures - also against the scriptures - there's no point in discussion.

---

Your Himalayan ego precludes you from acknowledging when you're wrong which, by the way, is often. And when you're proven to be wrong you spew some nonsense and then hide under your bed.

---

If we take you at your word, you believe you have a greater understanding of the Scriptures than basically every other Christian who has walked this world. As far as I know, you aren't fluent in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, yet you have gleaned information that scholars have all missed.

So I'm left asking...who has the bigger ego?

---

I can recognize contradictions in certain English translations. Please help me to resolve this contradiction. Which verse from The New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition is correct and which is incorrect?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and struggle because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, especially of those who believe.

---

It's not a contradiction of English translations. It's user error and one of the multitude of reasons nobody should be "me and my bible."

As I pointed out the last time you brought 1 Timothy 4:10 up, you are misunderstanding and misapplying the Scripture by ignoring all of the context of 1 Timothy 4.

As a reminder, 1 Timothy 4 notes that:

"4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons..."

Paul takes it for granted, that just as in Matthew, men will fall away from the faith and follow demons and spirits. He then transitions from that into talking about what good servants of Jesus should do and why they should do it.

It's also not a contradiction to say that God is the Savior of all, but that many will choose to reject God. This of course has all been discussed previously.

---

1 Timothy 4:10 is very plain, simple, and clear. Jesus is the savior of ALL people.

Do you not believe that?

Jesus himself said he doesn't stop looking until he has saved ALL!

Matthew 18:10-14 esv
See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.[a] 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my[b] Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

---

Unlike you, I don't prooftext things out of context. I read all of 1 Timothy 4 to understand the verses, not cherry pick verses as you are doing.

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Dies Irae said:

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The ESV is the one you like correct? I've never heard of it, but see below

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M1Buckeye said:

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Dies Irae said:

---

The ESV is the one you like correct? I've never heard of it, but see below

---

I like the ESV for its ease of reading but I refer to better translations that aren't necessarily "easy on the eyes" when it comes to other verses, particularly those that say things like "forever", "eternal" and "everlasting".

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Dies Irae said:

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The ESV is the one you like correct? I've never heard of it, but see below

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Dies Irae said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Dies Irae said:

---

The ESV is the one you like correct? I've never heard of it, but see below

---

I like the ESV for its ease of reading but I refer to better translations that aren't necessarily "easy on the eyes" when it comes to other verses, particularly those that say things like "forever", "eternal" and "everlasting".

---

This one says that it was better that he was never born. Explain what that means.

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M1Buckeye said:

---

Dies Irae said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Dies Irae said:

---

The ESV is the one you like correct? I've never heard of it, but see below

---

I like the ESV for its ease of reading but I refer to better translations that aren't necessarily "easy on the eyes" when it comes to other verses, particularly those that say things like "forever", "eternal" and "everlasting".

---

This one says that it was better that he was never born. Explain what that means.

---

Is it possible that Jesus was speaking metaphorically and not literally?

I copied this from another site:

Of course, as we might expect, it wasn't meant to be literal, as though there were some objective weighing of Judas' life proving things would have been better had he not been born. Keener's Matthew commentary [626] notes that cursing one's own birth, or that of others, was a common metaphorical lament used for or by someone experiencing great distress or woe, both in Jewish and pagan literature (see for example Job 3:3-26). There is even a rabbinic saying that anyone whose first words upon waking are not from the Torah is better off not having been born. Obviously this concept had the status of a metaphor to indicate the experience of something tragic or awful, or else to pronounce judgment. Even to this day we use the same metaphor; Napoleon reportedly said, for example, "Better not to have been born than to live without glory."

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Dies Irae said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Dies Irae said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Dies Irae said:

---

The ESV is the one you like correct? I've never heard of it, but see below

---

I like the ESV for its ease of reading but I refer to better translations that aren't necessarily "easy on the eyes" when it comes to other verses, particularly those that say things like "forever", "eternal" and "everlasting".

---

This one says that it was better that he was never born. Explain what that means.

---

Is it possible that Jesus was speaking metaphorically and not literally?

I copied this from another site:

Of course, as we might expect, it wasn't meant to be literal, as though there were some objective weighing of Judas' life proving things would have been better had he not been born. Keener's Matthew commentary [626] notes that cursing one's own birth, or that of others, was a common metaphorical lament used for or by someone experiencing great distress or woe, both in Jewish and pagan literature (see for example Job 3:3-26). There is even a rabbinic saying that anyone whose first words upon waking are not from the Torah is better off not having been born. Obviously this concept had the status of a metaphor to indicate the experience of something tragic or awful, or else to pronounce judgment. Even to this day we use the same metaphor; Napoleon reportedly said, for example, "Better not to have been born than to live without glory."

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When Jesus spoke in Metaphor, he let people know. He also refers to Judas as the "son of perdition" or in the ESV translation "son of destruction" and says that he has been "lost"

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M1Buckeye said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Zobel said:

---

And people endeavoring to correct the world based on their limited understanding of Greek leads to all sorts of opposite errors.

As long as you submit to no one - against the scriptures - and insist on using your own and only your own unique understanding of the scriptures - also against the scriptures - there's no point in discussion.

---

Your Himalayan ego precludes you from acknowledging when you're wrong which, by the way, is often. And when you're proven to be wrong you spew some nonsense and then hide under your bed.

---

If we take you at your word, you believe you have a greater understanding of the Scriptures than basically every other Christian who has walked this world. As far as I know, you aren't fluent in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, yet you have gleaned information that scholars have all missed.

So I'm left asking...who has the bigger ego?

---

I can recognize contradictions in certain English translations. Please help me to resolve this contradiction. Which verse from The New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition is correct and which is incorrect?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and struggle because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, especially of those who believe.

---

It's not a contradiction of English translations. It's user error and one of the multitude of reasons nobody should be "me and my bible."

As I pointed out the last time you brought 1 Timothy 4:10 up, you are misunderstanding and misapplying the Scripture by ignoring all of the context of 1 Timothy 4.

As a reminder, 1 Timothy 4 notes that:

"4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons..."

Paul takes it for granted, that just as in Matthew, men will fall away from the faith and follow demons and spirits. He then transitions from that into talking about what good servants of Jesus should do and why they should do it.

It's also not a contradiction to say that God is the Savior of all, but that many will choose to reject God. This of course has all been discussed previously.

---

1 Timothy 4:10 is very plain, simple, and clear. Jesus is the savior of ALL people.

Do you not believe that?

Jesus himself said he doesn't stop looking until he has saved ALL!

Matthew 18:10-14 esv
See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.[a] 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my[b] Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

---

Unlike you, I don't prooftext things out of context. I read all of 1 Timothy 4 to understand the verses, not cherry pick verses as you are doing.

---

Your belief that Jesus sends people to suffer FOREVER is contrary to the scriptures and it is most definitely contrary to God's will.

---