Given the value of the property involved, banks are happy to loan money to the churches and these amounts can be paid back over 5, 10 or 20 years, so it's not too daunting for churches if planned and managed effectively.TexAgs1992 said:Yes. They cannot wait to disaffiliate from what I gather.OnlyForNow said:
So do y'all think that the woodlands church will pay their 1.6 million dollar owed apportionment?
The (New) Global Methodist Church
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Last: 3 mo ago by UTExan
What I don't understand is why don't church's in the UMC and the PCUSA simply just tell them they are leaving, and make UMC/PCUSA file the suit?
Perhaps someone with legal knowledge can opine? From what I understand, Texas court cases don't recognize the trust clause, and the local church does indeed own the property, enabling them to simply say, "Adios!"
Besides, it is criminal, in addition to sinful, for these denominations to extort churches wanting to leave. What are they going to do with the money? Contribute it to far left political causes?
Perhaps someone with legal knowledge can opine? From what I understand, Texas court cases don't recognize the trust clause, and the local church does indeed own the property, enabling them to simply say, "Adios!"
Besides, it is criminal, in addition to sinful, for these denominations to extort churches wanting to leave. What are they going to do with the money? Contribute it to far left political causes?
Now that the majority of the African churches are siding against the UMC, that's a high probability.
They need the money to fund clergy pension and medical insurance. As the support base diminishes, these pension and medical costs are continuing to escalate. There was a huge scandal over AME church clergy pension funds.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
-Havelock Vetinari
Just because they "need" it doesn't make them legally entitled to it, does it?
The Chicken Ranch said:
Just because they "need" it doesn't make them legally entitled to it, does it?
They should have thought of that before the bishops disregarded the results of the last General Conference to pursue their own agenda. They simply didn't believe so many large churches would leave the denomination.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
-Havelock Vetinari
This is the correct information, but it is still maddening. There were ways it could have been provided for without causing this schism. Keep in mind, this is just the radical left driving away the majority of the faith/denomination because they repeatedly lost at general conferences in voting, much to their shock and dismay (I wish I'd saved the picture of Adam Hamilton weeping profusely the last time during the vote). The drama was both tragic and a comedy. Am I the only one bemused that a pending monster truck rally even rushed the voting, or that a cross was stolen from the stage?UTExan said:
They need the money to fund clergy pension and medical insurance. As the support base diminishes, these pension and medical costs are continuing to escalate. There was a huge scandal over AME church clergy pension funds.
The fees also could have been set lower and still covered the necessary medical/pension costs. Conniving administrators/lawyers amped up the vitriol/frustration over these fees, and set it up as a 'one chance at the apple' to force the hand of congregations unhappy with the future of the UMC. Yes, there are two sides to the story, but no, it did not have to happen so quickly/angrily, or be treated as a farce.
They also could have/should have changed the clergy's retirement plan to defined contribution at some point. But no, of course not, it is still a defined benefit. That's beyond absurd for what is, in essence (regardless of the split) a shrinking denomination.
It will be over with in the next couple of years (the Methodist split). Those that want to and have the means will leave and grow and the remaining UMC will die a quick and ugly death…The liberals will pack up and move on to the next denomination on their list leaving the ashes of the United Methodist, Presbyterian and Episcopal churches in their wake…
Does anyone have any information about the fraction of the members who were "present and voting" in their church's disaffiliation vote? It was only about 30% for my church, which failed to disaffiliate by a single vote. Based on similar attendance at our town hall meetings, I guess that is what I would have expected.
A 2/3 majority to disaffiliate sounds like a lot until you take into account that means 2/3 of those members present and voting. If only 1/3 of your members are present and voting (and it could be even less), you can have a situation where 2/9 (22%) of the members decide the future of your church. If they also retain the church property, can they support it?
I don't point this out to discourage disaffiliation from a wayward UMC. I point it out to remind us all that there are often unintended consequences of our actions - some good, some not so good.
A 2/3 majority to disaffiliate sounds like a lot until you take into account that means 2/3 of those members present and voting. If only 1/3 of your members are present and voting (and it could be even less), you can have a situation where 2/9 (22%) of the members decide the future of your church. If they also retain the church property, can they support it?
I don't point this out to discourage disaffiliation from a wayward UMC. I point it out to remind us all that there are often unintended consequences of our actions - some good, some not so good.
AW73
That's a really difficult question, because most churches have "member rolls" that are many times over normal Sunday attendance and easily 3-5x that of "regular" attendees. By regular, I mean people who other members actually know or have seen in the past few years.AW73 said:
Does anyone have any information about the fraction of the members who were "present and voting" in their church's disaffiliation vote? It was only about 30% for my church, which failed to disaffiliate by a single vote. Based on similar attendance at our town hall meetings, I guess that is what I would have expected.
A 2/3 majority to disaffiliate sounds like a lot until you take into account that means 2/3 of those members present and voting. If only 1/3 of your members are present and voting (and it could be even less), you can have a situation where 2/9 (22%) of the members decide the future of your church. If they also retain the church property, can they support it?
I don't point this out to discourage disaffiliation from a wayward UMC. I point it out to remind us all that there are often unintended consequences of our actions - some good, some not so good.
There were folks at my church who were "members" that showed up to vote, but they did not know who the pastor was. He's only been there for 12 years...
The number of voters was significantly more than the number of "regular" attendees.
The bigger fear is people who are still "members" but who do not attend or haven't attended in a decade or more affecting the vote. And it has happened.
Yup.
Kinda a ridiculous standard for voting.
Kinda a ridiculous standard for voting.
edited because I was mistaken in thinking the 2/3 requirement meant that 2/3 of all members (voting and non voting total number) had to vote to disaffiliate. From what is being posted it sounds like that the 2/3 majority is calculated on the the number of member voters present.
We worked hard to make sure that only actual members could vote.
AW73
Txducker said:
For churches that want to leave, they can increase their odds of a 2/3 majority buy doing regular maintenance of their membership rolls. This means contacting people who have not attended in the last 12 months and finding out about their situation. Unless they are a shut in or have some other valid reason for not attending, they need to be expunged from the membership rolls. This will make the 2/3 majority easier to obtain for leaving. This should also reduce your apportionments since that is calculated by membership.
It's not 2/3rds of the congregation…It's 2/3rds of those that bother to show up and vote…
Worth pointing out that the argument can be made that disaffiliation situation is a consequence of UMC Leaderships actions, or lack thereof.AW73 said:
I don't point this out to discourage disaffiliation from a wayward UMC. I point it out to remind us all that there are often unintended consequences of our actions - some good, some not so good.
Disaffiliation didn't just appear out of nowhere
XpressAg09 said:Worth pointing out that the argument can be made that disaffiliation situation is a consequence of UMC Leaderships actions, or lack thereof.AW73 said:
I don't point this out to discourage disaffiliation from a wayward UMC. I point it out to remind us all that there are often unintended consequences of our actions - some good, some not so good.
Disaffiliation didn't just appear out of nowhere
Agreed….I could not with a clear conscience see staying in a church that is no longer following God's word just to avoid the whole disaffiliation "thing" versus seeing it dissolved and those who seek God's true teaching banding together and forming something stronger…This whole "going along to get along" mentality has gotten us in the situation we're currently in…This split of traditionalist and progressives will result in a smaller, but more effective Wesleyan church…I've already seen it in our own church…lots of renewed energy, excitement and passion for the Lord's work!
Agreed. A fellow Sunday School teacher sent me this just yesterday; and I felt it was awfully pertinent. It's part of a larger devotional but here's what I found relevant:88Warrior said:
I could not with a clear conscience see staying in a church that is no longer following God's word just to avoid the whole disaffiliation "thing" versus seeing it dissolved and those who seek God's true teaching banding together and forming something stronger…This whole "going along to get along" mentality has gotten us in the situation we're currently in…
Quote:
That's why it's essential for pastors and teacher to be led by the Holy Spirit and God's Word, not by their own ideas. Human reasoning may seem appealing, but it has no power to permanently change lives for the better. Only Scripture taught accurately can do that.
XpressAg09 said:Agreed. A fellow Sunday School teacher sent me this just yesterday; and I felt it was awfully pertinent. It's part of a larger devotional but here's what I found relevant:88Warrior said:
I could not with a clear conscience see staying in a church that is no longer following God's word just to avoid the whole disaffiliation "thing" versus seeing it dissolved and those who seek God's true teaching banding together and forming something stronger…This whole "going along to get along" mentality has gotten us in the situation we're currently in…Quote:
That's why it's essential for pastors and teacher to be led by the Holy Spirit and God's Word, not by their own ideas. Human reasoning may seem appealing, but it has no power to permanently change lives for the better. Only Scripture taught accurately can do that.
Good points..I think human arrogance in thinking we know more than what we actually do has a lot to do with what we're seeing now…
nortex97 said:
The Truth shall set us free.
I'm a Baptist and I'm rooting for all of you. Cutting the heretics and the false prophets out is the only way we Christians can survive what is coming. I'm not saying we become insular, rather we need to focus on Biblical principles and what is right versus what is easy.
The hard path is usually the correct one when it comes to our faith.
Thank you BAP! You are right. And my family and I have been so happy since we left a PCUSA church and joined an ECO Presbyterian church. We have found a Bible sturdy that we really enjoy, and we are thinking about starting a men's (fathers with kids) group. The chains were released when we moved.
My advice to fellow Methodists is if your church won't do the right thing, you do the right thing with your feet.
My advice to fellow Methodists is if your church won't do the right thing, you do the right thing with your feet.
Not a whole lot of chatter here lately, but some new news at least for me.
My church, FUMC Cleburne, voted at the counsel meeting last night to begin discernment.
We are one of technically three Methodist churches in town.
1. FUMC Cleburne- The largest and one I became originally a member of in High School, then again a year and a half ago after moving my family to Cleburne. Probably have between 800-1000 active members. Historically been a center-right church.
2. St Mark UMC- The church I was baptized in and spent the first 15 years of my life at. Right around 2001 (when I was 15), the church had a preacher come in that tried to make the main service contemporary. A ton of the older (financially well off) threw a fit that their service was now infiltrated with guitars, drums, jeans, t-shirts, etc. A huge spat between those that wanted it and didn't want it split the church. The contemporary side created a new church called "Crossroads" which has now folded. The older members (which included my grandparents and parents) stayed. All the youth left to crossroads for the most part, other than me and one other who went to First Methodist. Prior to the split they had about 500 members, now they are down to about 50 (due to 100 or so leaving in the split, and deaths), and the average age is probably in their mid 80s. There are 4 LGBT couples among that 50 membership. Historically was a very conservative church that recently has probably become center left.
3. Wesley Memorial UMC- Dont know a ton about them. Have about 15-20 members. No clue about leanings
I have no clue how a vote would go at FUMC Cleburne on disaffiliation. I think, if given all the facts, it most likely will well over 50%, but not sure if it would get to the needed 67%. Really all will depend on who and how many show up to the vote. We are absolutely the definition of a big tent church with a few dyed in the wool left leaning people, a few more but not substantially far right people, and a vast majority that hover around center. If I had to guesstimate percentages based on the following labels I would say:
Far left- 5%
Center Left- 15%
Dead Center- 30%
Center Right- 40%
Far Right- 10%
I will update when the first meetings happen and try to go into as much detail as possible with you all. But I will be sure to not give away any personal details of who said what out of respect for my fellow members. I will identify Pastor, Associate Pastor, Youth Pastor, and Music Leader in quotes they make as they are paid by the church, but any quotes from members will be simply state "Member 1 said ______", "Member 2 rebuttled _______"
If a vote on leaving ever occurs, I see no path where at least 20% of the members don't leave, no matter the outcome of the vote.
My church, FUMC Cleburne, voted at the counsel meeting last night to begin discernment.
We are one of technically three Methodist churches in town.
1. FUMC Cleburne- The largest and one I became originally a member of in High School, then again a year and a half ago after moving my family to Cleburne. Probably have between 800-1000 active members. Historically been a center-right church.
2. St Mark UMC- The church I was baptized in and spent the first 15 years of my life at. Right around 2001 (when I was 15), the church had a preacher come in that tried to make the main service contemporary. A ton of the older (financially well off) threw a fit that their service was now infiltrated with guitars, drums, jeans, t-shirts, etc. A huge spat between those that wanted it and didn't want it split the church. The contemporary side created a new church called "Crossroads" which has now folded. The older members (which included my grandparents and parents) stayed. All the youth left to crossroads for the most part, other than me and one other who went to First Methodist. Prior to the split they had about 500 members, now they are down to about 50 (due to 100 or so leaving in the split, and deaths), and the average age is probably in their mid 80s. There are 4 LGBT couples among that 50 membership. Historically was a very conservative church that recently has probably become center left.
3. Wesley Memorial UMC- Dont know a ton about them. Have about 15-20 members. No clue about leanings
I have no clue how a vote would go at FUMC Cleburne on disaffiliation. I think, if given all the facts, it most likely will well over 50%, but not sure if it would get to the needed 67%. Really all will depend on who and how many show up to the vote. We are absolutely the definition of a big tent church with a few dyed in the wool left leaning people, a few more but not substantially far right people, and a vast majority that hover around center. If I had to guesstimate percentages based on the following labels I would say:
Far left- 5%
Center Left- 15%
Dead Center- 30%
Center Right- 40%
Far Right- 10%
I will update when the first meetings happen and try to go into as much detail as possible with you all. But I will be sure to not give away any personal details of who said what out of respect for my fellow members. I will identify Pastor, Associate Pastor, Youth Pastor, and Music Leader in quotes they make as they are paid by the church, but any quotes from members will be simply state "Member 1 said ______", "Member 2 rebuttled _______"
If a vote on leaving ever occurs, I see no path where at least 20% of the members don't leave, no matter the outcome of the vote.
Saumc plano the leadership committee vote was apparently 23 of 24 or so to leave. Don't plan to join gmc tho, but some sort of "athletic conference" model and become functionally a Congregationalist independent.
I heard a podcast episode that seems to align with that thought. That the large UMC churches that are leaving largely looked around and asked why they should be disproportionately funding the synods and smaller churches. So they are forming an informal independent group of Methodist Churches.
I dunno about that.
I think the reasons for leaving are not uniform, but that it generally revolves around the leftist/gay marriage/agenda stuff the UMC is now fully committed to moving forward. I also think, however, that leaving has created a space for dialog about structure/doctrine that has led to multiple answers.
If 5 of the top 7 UMC churches in Texas, for instance, are leaving the denomination then I am guessing it is not simply about 'gay' stuff but also about control long term, retirement/health/career plans for clergy, GMC options/benefits for those going to that denomination, doctrine, and human feedback/emotions relative to the conference/bishops etc. involved.
I say that not to disparage anyone on either/any side, just a recognition that it's a complex, multifarious analyses for many/all.
I think the reasons for leaving are not uniform, but that it generally revolves around the leftist/gay marriage/agenda stuff the UMC is now fully committed to moving forward. I also think, however, that leaving has created a space for dialog about structure/doctrine that has led to multiple answers.
If 5 of the top 7 UMC churches in Texas, for instance, are leaving the denomination then I am guessing it is not simply about 'gay' stuff but also about control long term, retirement/health/career plans for clergy, GMC options/benefits for those going to that denomination, doctrine, and human feedback/emotions relative to the conference/bishops etc. involved.
I say that not to disparage anyone on either/any side, just a recognition that it's a complex, multifarious analyses for many/all.
I think we agree?
I think the "gay" stuff caused the big churches to re-evaluate their membership with the synod, and I think it has them questioning what being a member of the GMC brings them that they can't achieve standing on their own, which encompasses the balance of what you pointed out.
I think the "gay" stuff caused the big churches to re-evaluate their membership with the synod, and I think it has them questioning what being a member of the GMC brings them that they can't achieve standing on their own, which encompasses the balance of what you pointed out.
The "gay" stuff was the catalyst for the big split from the PCUSA. But then it morphed into every far left liberal cause that you can think of.
As far as general conference voting is concerned, it probably has become a self fulfilling prophecy to a point. While the left side may have had the votes wether there was a split or not, all these conservative voices leaving are making that a concrete slide in the left direction. Almost as if they will be forcing the hand of other right/central right churches.
My current church that I mentioned yesterday has officially sent in notification of beginning discernment, has been doing really well. Growing, tons of new families. For a small town church, it amazing to think we have 30+ kids under 2 years old. While I think discernment absolutely had to happen, at least for discussion sakes, I am afraid of what a vote will do to our church.
Our status quo is great right now. Wonderful worship, a congregation that really gets along and does amazing work together with members all over the spectrum. If and when it comes to a vote, that's going to change no matter what the vote outcome ends up being. There will be hurt feelings, feelings of abandonment of fellow members, and a probable loss of a chunk of the congregation. For where we are now, I hate that. It has to be done, and I know I'd have to be voting for the side that actually honors scripture, but man this is going to suck.
My current church that I mentioned yesterday has officially sent in notification of beginning discernment, has been doing really well. Growing, tons of new families. For a small town church, it amazing to think we have 30+ kids under 2 years old. While I think discernment absolutely had to happen, at least for discussion sakes, I am afraid of what a vote will do to our church.
Our status quo is great right now. Wonderful worship, a congregation that really gets along and does amazing work together with members all over the spectrum. If and when it comes to a vote, that's going to change no matter what the vote outcome ends up being. There will be hurt feelings, feelings of abandonment of fellow members, and a probable loss of a chunk of the congregation. For where we are now, I hate that. It has to be done, and I know I'd have to be voting for the side that actually honors scripture, but man this is going to suck.
Our Church, First United Methodist Bixby, (Oklahoma) is going through the disaffiliation process right now. I've been surprised that the dead center, (when well educated in the scripture) have been strong supporters of disaffiliation. Given your estimates, you should have enough votes to complete the disaffiliation, assuming the right and dead center voters show up.The Shank Ag said:
...
Far left- 5%
Center Left- 15%
Dead Center- 30%
Center Right- 40%
Far Right- 10%
...
Keep praying - God is watching and has a plan. Feels like he's asking followers to choose him and take a stand, while removing the modern-day sadducees and heretics from the Church.
My wife's family is Methodist, and their church hasn't voted yet, and will most likely vote to stay. This is because several of the older folks have said publicly that they have family that is gay, and they want them welcome at church. It is a slippery slope.
My experience is with the PCUSA, as I've written here frequently. At least the UMC is doing this right. The PCUSA shoved their far left wing ideology down the throats of the more Bible teaching churches and dared them to leave. The small town churches that operate on a small budget with 50-150 members simply do not have the funds to leave. The larger churches that could afford it left to form the ECO or join the EPC. I go to one of those churches. But I left the PCUSA with my feet. My old PCUSA church simply forced the conservative members out. And they will eventually die and close their doors. My new ECO church is strong, vibrant, and has young families.
Young Christian families will not put up with the UMC or the PCUSA. They will simply vote with their feet. I pray for small town UMC and PCUSA churches that stay. Small town churches that stayed PCUSA because they couldn't afford to leave will all close their doors at some point, because no one will go there. If we ever move from where we live and have to find a church where we relocate to, we will look for a GMC, ECO, or EPC church, and wouldn't even consider a PCUSA or UMC church.
Satan is the one who has infiltrated our church's ideology and forced all this to happen.
Keep praying. I agree with what Firman has said above.
My experience is with the PCUSA, as I've written here frequently. At least the UMC is doing this right. The PCUSA shoved their far left wing ideology down the throats of the more Bible teaching churches and dared them to leave. The small town churches that operate on a small budget with 50-150 members simply do not have the funds to leave. The larger churches that could afford it left to form the ECO or join the EPC. I go to one of those churches. But I left the PCUSA with my feet. My old PCUSA church simply forced the conservative members out. And they will eventually die and close their doors. My new ECO church is strong, vibrant, and has young families.
Young Christian families will not put up with the UMC or the PCUSA. They will simply vote with their feet. I pray for small town UMC and PCUSA churches that stay. Small town churches that stayed PCUSA because they couldn't afford to leave will all close their doors at some point, because no one will go there. If we ever move from where we live and have to find a church where we relocate to, we will look for a GMC, ECO, or EPC church, and wouldn't even consider a PCUSA or UMC church.
Satan is the one who has infiltrated our church's ideology and forced all this to happen.
Keep praying. I agree with what Firman has said above.
The first Global Methodist Conference in the world is in Waco, Tx this weekend.
Fireman said:Our Church, First United Methodist Bixby, (Oklahoma) is going through the disaffiliation process right now. I've been surprised that the dead center, (when well educated in the scripture) have been strong supporters of disaffiliation. Given your estimates, you should have enough votes to complete the disaffiliation, assuming the right and dead center voters show up.The Shank Ag said:
...
Far left- 5%
Center Left- 15%
Dead Center- 30%
Center Right- 40%
Far Right- 10%
...
Keep praying - God is watching and has a plan. Feels like he's asking followers to choose him and take a stand, while removing the modern-day sadducees and heretics from the Church.
Bixby resident here as well! We go to Asbury.
In a related development, the UMC has decided that local churches are now forbidden from sponsoring Boy Scout troops. Our church had to tell our local BS troop that we could no longer sponsor them - after 105 years.
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left. Ecclesiastes 10:2
LOL. Have to laugh or cry, might as well laugh.
As a lovely parting gift to the North GA conference, the departing bishop (now over Virginia conference) issued an edict on her way out the door to "pause" any disaffiliations of North GA churches until after the scheduled 2024 General Conference due to "misinformation". This despite the bishop and the superintendent being invited and presenting at one of the informational meetings that our church held as part of the discernment process.
With disaffiliation under Paragraph 2553 expiring at the end of 2023, "pausing" any disaffiliations until after the 2024 General means that the window for any disaffiliation will have closed by the time of the General Conference.
With disaffiliation under Paragraph 2553 expiring at the end of 2023, "pausing" any disaffiliations until after the 2024 General means that the window for any disaffiliation will have closed by the time of the General Conference.
TheRatt87 said:
As a lovely parting gift to the North GA conference, the departing bishop (now over Virginia conference) issued an edict on her way out the door to "pause" any disaffiliations of North GA churches until after the scheduled 2024 General Conference due to "misinformation". This despite the bishop and the superintendent being invited and presenting at one of the informational meetings that our church held as part of the discernment process.
With disaffiliation under Paragraph 2553 expiring at the end of 2023, "pausing" any disaffiliations until after the 2024 General means that the window for any disaffiliation will have closed by the time of the General Conference.
Despicable.
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