File5 said:

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Macarthur said:

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File5 said:

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Macarthur said:

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I find all of this some amazing mental gymnastics to twist a vengeful God (his own words) into an all loving God.

Again, God is okay with some little one's being killed but there's a blanket order against Abortion even though it's never mentioned....

---

I think the responses have done a great job of responding to both of your statements here, do you have anything more of substance?

---

No, they haven't. Kurt beat me to the punch on a couple of these reponses. They are incredibly inadequate, IMO.

Do I need to actually post a list of why I think God doesn't really value human life?

---

Sure, why not? Anything is better than just calling arguments mental gymnastics and restating points that we've already addressed. Conversation requires two people honestly engaging with reasoned, supported positions, if you don't do that then there's no point to put any time into it.

---

I find this a bit disingenuous. I mean, you've read the Bible. You know the kind of death and carnage I'm referencing. God was either directly involved or condoning it.

Zobel said:

---

The OT doesn't exist in a vacuum. One of the most interesting ways to read it even in a non-religious setting is as dialogue. Where it speaks, it often speaks in opposition.

Bring frank I suspect bestiality was rampant, so it was explicitly prohibited. Along with a long list of other sexual immoralities.

I suspect abortion as we know it was not. I don't know when herbal abortifacients were invented, but I suspect they weren't common in the Bronze Age. On the other hand, child sacrifice was practiced, and is rejected.

It's not ambiguous. It has never been ambiguous to followers of Christianity, on any level. It is ambiguous to people outside the faith, or to those who are more closely aligned with modern secular morality than Christianity. The appeal to an unclear principle is ahistorical. Christians have argued against abortion explicitly since the end of the first century, and in continuity since.

And no, I'm not saying it's an appeal to authority. I'm saying pulling up (more relatively) modern rabbinical interpretations is not in any way an answer to what I wrote in the preceding paragraph.

---

Now, this is just flat out not true. You keep making statements like this I'm the one that is accused of not arguing in good faith.

I've provided evidence from the first and second centuries that explicitly condemn abortion as murder and do so in a way that appeal to and require a normative Christian understanding as such. Please provide your sources indicating the opposite.

one MEEN Ag said:

---

Also, your critique on communication with God begs the question that you demand God to be here, today holding a press conference. Thats not how this works.

---

Why not? How does it work? If God isn't making the rules, who is?

Macarthur said:

---

File5 said:

---

Macarthur said:

---

File5 said:

---

Macarthur said:

---

I find all of this some amazing mental gymnastics to twist a vengeful God (his own words) into an all loving God.

Again, God is okay with some little one's being killed but there's a blanket order against Abortion even though it's never mentioned....

---

I think the responses have done a great job of responding to both of your statements here, do you have anything more of substance?

---

No, they haven't. Kurt beat me to the punch on a couple of these reponses. They are incredibly inadequate, IMO.

Do I need to actually post a list of why I think God doesn't really value human life?

---

Sure, why not? Anything is better than just calling arguments mental gymnastics and restating points that we've already addressed. Conversation requires two people honestly engaging with reasoned, supported positions, if you don't do that then there's no point to put any time into it.

---

I find this a bit disingenuous. I mean, you've read the Bible. You know the kind of death and carnage I'm referencing. God was either directly involved or condoning it.

---

God is merciful, but still a judge. God despises governments using force, death, and subjugation as tools. The OT prophets show that nations can be judged by how they treat the immigrant, widow, and orphan. All ancient Jews knew of the phrase, The Day of Our Lord. Where God's justice physically defeated the enemies of the ancient Jews.

When Egypt was given plagues and the passover happened?: The Day of Our Lord
When Babylon sacked Israel: The Day of Our Lord.
When the Assyrians sacked Babylon: The Day of Our Lord.

God admits to using governments as bearers of judgement for other governments.

Here's the twist: Jesus's sacrifice on the cross is the Day of Our Lord, but instead of vanquishing a physical opponent who has sin in their heart, He goes straight for sin itself and defeats death. Jesus, as the embodiment of God spends his ministry constantly showing that the enemy is unseen, and raising a sword against humans only ensares you in death as well. This is why Jesus tells Peter to 'get behind me satan' when Jesus reveals he is going to die soon. Peter wants Jesus to ride out into battle, Jesus dying on the cross doesn't make sense. But Jesus sees the seed of sin in Peter here- Peter thinks physically defeating opponents is the objective.

Zobel said:

---

If you believe that all people will be resurrected as I do then He have no less than they did.

If you are a materialist and believe that there is nothing after death, then again they are equivalent.

I don't see the distinction.

---

I'm sure that I've misunderstood your point here.

My understanding of Christianity is that Jesus made a great sacrifice for humanity. The act of physically experiencing pain and dying is supposed to be something exceptional and necessary for our salvation. . . . . not 'No less than they did'.

I would also say that here is distinction between a materialist sacrificing their life with no hope or expectation of reward and a God sacrificing their Sunday afternoon knowing that they will soon be back in Heaven for eternity.

one MEEN Ag said:

---

kurt vonnegut said:

---

Zobel said:

---

If you believe that all people will be resurrected as I do then He have no less than they did.

If you are a materialist and believe that there is nothing after death, then again they are equivalent.

I don't see the distinction.

---

I'm sure that I've misunderstood your point here.

My understanding of Christianity is that Jesus made a great sacrifice for humanity. The act of physically experiencing pain and dying is supposed to be something exceptional and necessary for our salvation. . . . . not 'No less than they did'.

I would also say that here is distinction between a materialist sacrificing their life with no hope or expectation of reward and a God sacrificing their Sunday afternoon knowing that they will soon be back in Heaven for eternity.

---

Jesus could have been euthanized in the most humanely way possible and doesn't change anything. Its the fact he lived perfectly blameless life, came as God down in human form, and he fulfilled the prophecies of the old testament all the way back to right as Adam and Eve get kicked out of the garden. 'You will strike man's heal, but there will be one that will crush your head.' Jesus defeated death itself.

This isn't even getting into what Jesus said, and how he brings forth a new upside down kingdom. Where everyone is given love and dignity regardless of their status. Peace and forgiveness reign as humanity is given new hearts.

---

Great post.

Macarthur said:

---

File5 said:

---

Macarthur said:

---

File5 said:

---

Macarthur said:

---

I find all of this some amazing mental gymnastics to twist a vengeful God (his own words) into an all loving God.

Again, God is okay with some little one's being killed but there's a blanket order against Abortion even though it's never mentioned....

---

I think the responses have done a great job of responding to both of your statements here, do you have anything more of substance?

---

No, they haven't. Kurt beat me to the punch on a couple of these reponses. They are incredibly inadequate, IMO.

Do I need to actually post a list of why I think God doesn't really value human life?

---

Sure, why not? Anything is better than just calling arguments mental gymnastics and restating points that we've already addressed. Conversation requires two people honestly engaging with reasoned, supported positions, if you don't do that then there's no point to put any time into it.

---

I find this a bit disingenuous. I mean, you've read the Bible. You know the kind of death and carnage I'm referencing. God was either directly involved or condoning it.

---

I tell you what, as soon as you provide some specific examples that haven't been addressed in the other pages of this thread, then I'll give you a detailed response. You keep coming back with generic
catch-alls instead of supported examples of your point. It takes time to come up with a post and if one side gives nothing but empty commentary then there's no point. So give us something of substance and then I'll respond in kind.

There seems to be some kind of quantitative suffering comparison going on here. I examine it two ways.

On one - the Christian worldview. In that case, people will be resurrected to an eternal life. In this regard, His suffering is equivalent as He suffered death, which is miniscule in comparison with eternity.

On the other - the Materialist worldview. In that case, the human life is all there is, and death is the final end. If so, no death or life is greater or less than any other because all lives are as inestimably valuable as they are ultimately futile. So again they are equivalent - all men consigned to mortality, therefore death is death.

As for Christianity, I think the Incarnation and the Death and Resurrection are two separate things. The Lord became Incarnate, became Man, voluntarily to join the human nature with the divine. This I believe would have happened regardless of the fall, to complete humanity in the image and likeness of the Creator. The Incarnation wasn't a "backup plan."

However, because of the fall, sin and death had to be dealt with. This was done through the voluntary Death and Resurrection. What makes this Death exceptional is that it was truly voluntary - not only how and when He died, but that He died at all. And truly, He was not killed but died, St John makes a point repeatedly to emphasize that He laid His life down willingly, He gave up His spirit. No human can say the same.

The Lord took on human nature, and He really hungered, thirsted, suffered, sorrowed. These weren't a fiction, and they pained Him no less than they pain us. His death was every bit as tragic as any, and moreso, because it simply never had to be.

Just listened to this series recently and its awesome.

https://bibleproject.com/podcast/series/day-of-the-lord-series/

Really dives deep into what God's judgement was/wasn't + is/isn't. Details how Israel came from out from Egyptian subjugation just to live like the Egyptians when they had their own kingdom. The episode skewering King Solomon was an eye opener. He, even when given wisdom, still fell to the earthly desires of success. He subjugating people, became trade partners with known brutal regimes like Egypt for their war horses/chariots, stored up gold for himself, and took 700 wives/concubines (sweet jesus). He did this all while still being wise. Just goes to show that wisdom is independent of a heart that follows God's will. Really applicable today.

The series goes on to talk about how radical Jesus is as the messiah. He sees through us and sees the sin behind the scenes pulling the strings of our hearts. Bringing a sword down upon the oppressors of the jews will only create more oppression. The final episode is awesome. Talks about the Old testament prophecy where the messiah will ride in on a white horse before battle, where his robes are already bloody 'like wine' because he's already defeated the enemy - trampled over them like grapes crushed under a press. And then contrasts that with John's NT vision of revelations where the messiah is on a white horse, where his robes are already bloody but its the Messiah's own blood, but he has still already defeated the enemy! Just an incredible twist on the context that ancient jews would understand and go 'ah ha!' immediately.

Isaiah 63 is my one of favorites for Pascha because of that verse, 63:3 and how it is revealed in Revelation.

File5 said:

---

Macarthur said:

---

File5 said:

---

Macarthur said:

---

File5 said:

---

Macarthur said:

---

I find all of this some amazing mental gymnastics to twist a vengeful God (his own words) into an all loving God.

Again, God is okay with some little one's being killed but there's a blanket order against Abortion even though it's never mentioned....

---

I think the responses have done a great job of responding to both of your statements here, do you have anything more of substance?

---

No, they haven't. Kurt beat me to the punch on a couple of these reponses. They are incredibly inadequate, IMO.

Do I need to actually post a list of why I think God doesn't really value human life?

---

Sure, why not? Anything is better than just calling arguments mental gymnastics and restating points that we've already addressed. Conversation requires two people honestly engaging with reasoned, supported positions, if you don't do that then there's no point to put any time into it.

---

I find this a bit disingenuous. I mean, you've read the Bible. You know the kind of death and carnage I'm referencing. God was either directly involved or condoning it.

---

I tell you what, as soon as you provide some specific examples that haven't been addressed in the other pages of this thread, then I'll give you a detailed response. You keep coming back with generic
catch-alls instead of supported examples of your point. It takes time to come up with a post and if one side gives nothing but empty commentary then there's no point. So give us something of substance and then I'll respond in kind.

---

Here's a list courtesy of Steve Wells. His point here was to attach a number on how many, but I'm not as concerned with the number so I don't want this to devolve into a pissing match over the numbers of dead. The first number is what the Bible estimates but the second number is Wells estimate. Again, not that interested in the number.

1
The Flood of Noah
Gen 7:23

20,000,000
2
Abraham's war to rescue Lot
Gen 14:17-19

1,000
3
Sodom and Gomorrah
Gen 19:24

2,000
4
Lot's wife
Gen 19:26
1
1
5
While they were sore, Dinah's brethren slew all the males
Gen 34:1-31, Judith 9:2-3
2
1,000
6
Er for being wicked in the sight of the Lord
Gen 38:7
1
1
7
Onan for spilling his seed
Gen 38:10
1
1
8
A seven year worldwide famine
Gen 41:25-54

70,000
9
There will be blood: The first plague of Egypt
Ex 7:15-27 , Wis 11:7-8

10,000
10
The seventh plague: hail
Ex 9:25

300,000
11
Firstborn Egyptian children
Ex 12:29-30

500,000
12
The Lord took off their chariot wheels
Ex 14:8-26
600
5,000
13
Amalekites
Ex 17:13

1,000
14
Who is on the Lord's side?: Forcing friends and family to kill each other
Ex 32:27-28
3,000
3,000
15
Aaron's golden calf
Ex 32:35

1,000
16
God burns Aaron's sons to death for offering "strange fire"
Lev 10:1-3
2
2
17
A blasphemer is stoned to death
Lev 24:10-23
1
1
18
When the people complained, God burned them to death
Num 11:1

100
19
While the flesh was still between their teeth, the Lord smote them will a very great plague
Num 11:33

10,000
20
Ten scouts are killed for their honest report
Num 14:35-45
10
110
21
A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day is stoned to death
Num 15:32-35
1
1
22
Korah, his companions, and their families are buried alive
Num 16:27
3
9
23
God burns 250 people to death for burning incense
Num 16:35
250
250
24
God kills 14,700 for complaining about God's killings
Num 16:49
14,700
14,700
25
The massacre of the Aradies
Num 21:1-2

3,000
26
God sent serpents to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and water
Num 21:6

100
27
Phineas's double murder: A killing to end God's killing
Num 25:1-11
24,002
24,002
28
The Midianite massacre: Have ye saved all the women alive?
Num 31:1-35
6
200,000
29
God slowly killed the Israelite army
Dt 2:14-16

500,000
30
God the giant killer
Dt 2:21-22

5,000
31
God hardens King Sihon's heart so all his people can be killed
Dt 2:33-34
1
5,000
32
Og and all the men women, and children in 60 cities
Dt 3:6
1
60,000
33
The Jericho massacre
Jos 6:21

1,000
34
Achan and his family
Jos 7:10-26
1
5
35
The Ai massacre
Jos 8:1-25
12,000
12,000
36
God stops the sun so Joshua can get his killing done in the daylight
Jos 10:10-11

5,000
37
Five kings killed and hung on trees
Jos 10:26
5
10,000
38
Joshua utterly destroyed all that breathed as the Lord commanded
Jos 10:28-42
7
7,000
39
The genocide of twenty cities: There was not any left to breathe
Jos 11:8-12
2
20,000
40
The Anakim: some more giant killing
Jos 11:20-21

5,000
41
The Lord delivered the Canaanites and Perizzites
Jg 1:4
10,000
10,000
42
The Jerusalem massacre
Jg 1:8

1,000
43
Five massacres, a wedding, and God-proof iron chariots
Jg 1:9-25

5,000
44
The Lord delivered Chushanrishathaim
Jg 3:7-10
1
1,000
45
Ehud delivers a message from God
Jg 3:15-22
1
1
46
God delivers 10,000 lusty Moabites
Jg 3:28-29
10,000
10,000
47
Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an ox goad
Jg 3:31
600
600
48
Barak and God massacre the Canaanites
Jg 4:15-16

1,000
49
Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's skull
Jg 4:18-22
1
1
50
Gideon's story: The Lord set every man's sword against his fellow
Jg 7:22
120,000
120,000
51
A city is massacred and 1000 burn to death because of God's evil spirit
Jg 9:23-27
1,001
2,000
52
The Ammonite massacre
Jg 11:32-33

20,000
53
Jephthah's daughter
Jg 11:39
1
1
54
42,000 die for failing the "shibboleth" test
Jg 12:4-7
42,000
42,000
55
Samson murdered 30 men for their clothes
Jg 14:19
30
30
56
Samson killed 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass
Jg 15:14-15
1,000
1,000
57
Samson killed 3000 in a suicide terrorist attack
Jg 16:27-30
3,000
3,000
58
A holy civil war (it had something to do with rotting concubine body part messages)
Jg 20:35-37
65,100
65,100
59
The end of Judges: two genocides and 200 stolen virgins
Jg 21:10-14

4,000
60
God killed Eli's sons and 34,000 Israelite soldiers
1 Sam 2:25, 4:11
34,002
34,002
61
God smote them with hemorrhoids in their secret parts
1 Sam 5:1-12

3,000
62
50,070 killed for looking into the ark of the Lord
1 Sam 6:19
50,070
50,070
63
The Lord thundered a great thunder upon the Philistines
1 Sam 7:10-11

1,000
64
Another Ammonite massacre (and another God-inspired body part message)
1 Sam 11:6-13

1,000
65
Jonathan's first slaughter
1 Sam 14:12-14
20
20
66
God forces the Philistines to kill each other
1 Sam 14:20

1,000
67
The Amalekite genocide
1 Sam 15:2-3

10,000
68
Samuel hacks Agag to death before the Lord
1 Sam 15:32-33
1
1
69
In the valley of Elah: Goliath
1 Sam 17:51, 2 Sam 21:19
1
1
70
David buys a wife with 200 Philistine foreskins
1 Sam 18:27
200
200
71
The Lord said to David, Go and smite the Philistines
1 Sam 23:2-5

10,000
72
God killed Nabal (and David got his wife and other stuff)
1 Sam 25:38
1
1
73
David commits random acts of genocide for the Philistines
1 Sam 27:8-11

60,000
74
David spends the day killing Amalekites
1 Sam 30:17

1,000
75
God kills Saul, his sons, and his soldiers (because Saul didn't kill all the Amalekites)
1 Sam 31:2, 2 Chr 10:6
4
100
76
David kills the messenger
2 Sam 1:15
1
1
77
David killed, mutilated, and hung Rechab and Baanah
2 Sam 4:12
2
2
78
God helps David smite the Philistines from the front and the rear
2 Sam 5:19-25

2,000
79
God killed Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling
2 Sam 6:6-7, 1 Chr 13:9-10
1
1
80
David killed two-thirds of the Moabite POWs and enslaved the rest
2 Sam 8:2

667
81
And the Lord gave David victory wherever he went
2 Sam 8 - 10
65,850
66,850
82
David killed every male in Edom
2 Sam 8:13-14, 1 Kg 11:15-16, 1 Chr 18:12, Ps 60:1
15,000
25,000
83
Thus did David do to all the children of Ammon
2 Sam 11:1, 1 Chr 20:1

1,000
84
God slowly kills a baby
2 Sam 12:14-18
1
1
85
Seven sons of Saul are hung up before the Lord
2 Sam 21:1-9
7
3,000
86
David's mighty men and their amazing killings
2 Sam 23, 1 Chr 11
1,403
3,400
87
God killed 70,000 because of David had a census that God (or Satan) told him to do
2 Sam 24:15, 1 Chr 21:14
70,000
200,000
88
Solomon murdered Job and Shimei (per David's deathbed wish)
1 Kg 2:29-46
2
2
89
A tale of two prophets
1 Kg 13:11-24
1
1
90
Jeroboam's son: God kills another child
1 Kg 14:17
1
1
91
Jeroboam's family
1 Kg 15:29

10
92
Baasha's family and friends
1 Kg 16:11-12

20
93
Zimri burns to death
1 Kg 16:18-19
1
1
94
The drought of Elijah
1 Kg 17:1, Luke 4:25, James 5:17-18

3,000
95
Elijah kills 450 religious leaders in a prayer contest
1 Kg 18:22-40
450
450
96
The first God-assisted slaughter of the Syrians
1 Kg 20:20-21

10,000
97
God killed 100,000 Syrians for calling him a god of the hills
1 Kg 20:28-29
100,000
100,000
98
God killed 27,000 Syrians by making a wall fall on them
1 Kg 20:30
27,000
27,000
99
God sent a lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet
1 Kg 20:35-36
1
1
100
God killed Ahab for not killing a captured king
1 Kg 20:42, 22:35
1
1
101
God burned 102 men to death for asking Elijah to come down from his hill
2 Kg 1:10-12
102
102
102
God killed Ahaziah for asking the wrong God
2 Kg 1:16-17, 2 Chr 22:7-9
1
1
103
God sent bears to kill 42 boys for making fun of a prophet's bald head
2 Kg 2:23-24
42
42
104
The Lord delivered the Moabites
2 Kg 3:18-25

5,000
105
A skeptic is trampled to death
2 Kg 7:2-20
1
1
106
God's seven year famine
2 Kg 8:1

7,000
107
Jehoram of Israel
2 Kg 9:24
1
1
108
Jezebel
2 Kg 9:33-37
1
1
109
Ahab's sons: 70 heads in two baskets
2 Kg 10:6-10
70
70
110
Ahab's hometown family, friends, and priests
2 Kg 10:11

20
111
Jehu killed Ahaziah's family
2 Kg 10:12-13, 2 Chr 22:7-9
42
42
112
Jehu and his partner kill the rest of Ahab's family
2 Kg 10:17

20
113
Jehu assembled the followers of Baal and then slaughtered them all
2 Kg 10:18-25

1,000
114
Mattan the priest of Baal and Queen Athaliah
2 Kg 11:17-20
2
2
115
God sent lions to eat those who didn't fear him enough
2 Kg 17:25-26

10
116
An angel killed 185,000 sleeping soldiers
2 Kg 19:34, 37:36
185,000
185,000
117
God caused King Sennacherib to be killed by his sons
2 Kg 19:37, Tobit 1:21
1
1
118
Josiah killed all the priests of the high places
2 Kg 23:20

100
119
Just another holy war
1 Chr 5:18-22

50,000
120
God killed a half million Israelite soldiers
2 Chr 13:17-18
500,000
500,000
121
Jeroboam
2 Chr 13:20
1
1
122
God killed a million Ethiopians
2 Chr 14:9-14
1,000,000
1,000,000
123
Friendly fire: God forced "a great multitude" to kill each other
2 Chr 20:22-25

30,000
124
God made Jehoram's bowels fall out
2 Chr 21:14-19
1
1
125
God killed Jehoram's sons
2 Chr 22:1

3
126
Ahaziah of Judah
2 Chr 22:7-8
1
1
127
Joash, the princes, and army of Judah
2 Chr 24:20-25
1
10,000
128
God destroyed Amaziah
2 Chr 25:15-27
1
1,000
129
God smote Ahaz with the king of Syria
2 Chr 28:1-5
1
10,000
130
God killed 120,000 valiant men for forsaking him
2 Chr 28:6
120,000
120,000
131
The fall of Jerusalem
2 Chr 36:16-17

10,000
132
The Purim killings: God hath done these things
Esther 2 - 9, 10:4
75,813
75,813
133
God and Satan kill Job's children and slaves
Job 1:18-19
10
60
134
Hananiah
Jer 28:15-16
1
1
135
Ezekiel's wife
Ezek 24:15-18
1
1
136
Oh! Susanna
Dan 13:6-62
2
2
137
Judith is blessed above all women (for cutting off a sleeping man's head)
Judith 13:6-10
1
1
138
The Judith massacre: hang ye up this head upon our walls
Judith 15:1-6

1,000
139
Mathathias's double murder
1 Mac 2:24-25
2
2
140
Mathathias and his friends slay the wicked sinners
1 Mac 2:44

100
141
God killed Andronicus, the sacrilegious wretch
2 Mac 4:38
1
1
142
A Jewish mob killed Lysimachus, the sacrilegious fellow
2 Mac 4:42
1
1
143
God helped Judas Machabeus destroy the wicked
1 Mac 3:1-26, 2 Mac 8:5-6
800
4,900
144
Judas and his unarmed men kill 3000 of Gorgias's soldiers
1 Mac 3:44-4:24
3,000
3,000
145
The Hanukkah killings
1 Mac 4:34-5:7
5,000
17,000
146
The Machabees brothers slaughter the heathens
1 Mac 5:21-51
11,000
37,000
147
Nicanor's army: The Almighty being their helper, they slew above nine thousand men
1 Mac 7:32-47, 2 Mac 8:24, 15:27
147,002
147,002
148
Jonathan and Simon destroy the wicked out of Israel
1 Mac 9:46-49, 2 Mac 8:30-33, 10:61
1,000
1,200
149
Five heavenly horsemen cast darts and fireballs at the enemy
2 Mac 8:32-10:38
21,103
21,400
150
God killed Antiochus with an incurable bowel disease
2 Mac 9:5-28
1
1
151
Idumeans, traitors, and Jews in two towers
2 Mac 10:16-17
40,000
40,100
152
Nicanor's head: A manifest sign of the help of God
1 Mac 7:33-48, 2 Mac 15:1-35
35,000
35,000
153
Aliens at Cades
1 Mac 11:74
3,000
3,000
154
John burns to death 2000 in the tower of Azotus
1 Mac 16:10
2,000
2,000
155
God sent wasps to slowly destroy people
Wisdom 12:8-9

1,000
156
Ananias and Sapphira
Acts 5:5-10
2
2
157
Herod Aggripa
Acts 12:23
1
1
158
Jesus
Rom 8:32, 1 Pet 1:1820
1
1

Totals
2,821,364
24,994,828

One of the hardest things in my Christian walk is to read the OT through the lens of Jesus. And understand the bloodshed apparently condoned by God.

I have come to the conclusion that God is God and I am not. The Creator has dominion over His creation. Since I know God can not sin, and is good, then all of the actions of the OT were just and part of God's plan.

I also know that we are not God and are commanded not to murder.

https://redeeminggod.com/drunk-with-blood-steve-wells/

Interesting read. And yes, we have to acknowledge the violence in the Bible.

dermdoc said:

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One of the hardest things in my Christian walk is to read the OT through the lens of Jesus. And understand the bloodshed apparently condoned by God.

I have come to the conclusion that God is God and I am not. The Creator has dominion over His creation. Since I know God can not sin, and is good, then all of the actions of the OT were just and part of God's plan.

I also know that we are not God and are commanded not to murder.

---

While we are on diff sides of the discussion, I respect this answer.

Thanks. And I think you have to look at the entire Bible and the beauty of the gospel and Jesus's sacrifice. And how much God loves each of us as demonstrated by this act.

Macarthur said:

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dermdoc said:

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One of the hardest things in my Christian walk is to read the OT through the lens of Jesus. And understand the bloodshed apparently condoned by God.

I have come to the conclusion that God is God and I am not. The Creator has dominion over His creation. Since I know God can not sin, and is good, then all of the actions of the OT were just and part of God's plan.

I also know that we are not God and are commanded not to murder.

---

While we are on diff sides of the discussion, I respect this answer.

---

I agree it's a respectable answer. I'd argue it seems like you knew the answer before you asked the question and justified yourself into the answer you already had.

Zobel said:

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This is a bad faith representation and no Christian would agree with it.

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How's that? Do you actually have a say in whether you're born or not? Or the circumstances of your birth? Do you have a say in whether you have to abide by God's rules, no matter how illogical they appear? If you refuse to abide by those rules, are you not punished?

Sapper Redux said:

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Zobel said:

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This is a bad faith representation and no Christian would agree with it.

---

How's that? Do you actually have a say in whether you're born or not? Or the circumstances of your birth? Do you have a say in whether you have to abide by God's rules, no matter how illogical they appear? If you refuse to abide by those rules, are you not punished?

---

No.
No.
Yes
Yes

But the "punishment" is like what a loving father would administer to their kids. The prodigal son is an example in my opinion.

And fwiw, I thought a lot of my parents "rules" were illogical also.

Now I realize they were for my own good.

There are so many people here trying to explain away their fervent belief in the righteousness of abortion, it can only be explained by demonic oppression.

It wasn't always this way, abortion proponents USED to say it was horrible but sometimes appropriate given circumstance. We've gone from "safe, legal and rare" to "top bidder gets to have me shout out their name during my livestreamed abortion procedure"

Quote:

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How's that? Do you actually have a say in whether you're born or not? Or the circumstances of your birth? Do you have a say in whether you have to abide by God's rules, no matter how illogical they appear? If you refuse to abide by those rules, are you not punished?

---

It's not a set of rules any more than gravity or fire is a set of rules. You jump off of a high structure you will get hurt. You touch something hot you will get burned.

The entire way you've framed it is as if is arbitrary. God's up there with an unwinnable game and a list of gotchas and provisos, then as soon as a person has an oops he gleefully "kills or tortures them without recourse". There's no good faith to describing it as "any deviation can result in eternal torture." It's ridiculous and in no way represents the faith of Christianity.

God doesn't tell Adam "if you do this I will kill you" but "if you do this you will die." There is no way you think that what you said is a reasonable explanation of the Christian faith.

Joe Boudain said:

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There are so many people here trying to explain away their fervent belief in the righteousness of abortion, it can only be explained by demonic oppression.

It wasn't always this way, abortion proponents USED to say it was horrible but sometimes appropriate given circumstance. We've gone from "safe, legal and rare" to "top bidder gets to have me shout out their name during my livestreamed abortion procedure"

---

Yeah, no one is saying that, dude. We do think it should be safe, legal, and rare.

Contrary to the f16 narrative, most pro choicers are not gung ho enthusiastic about abortion. We just think it should be a legally available option because outlawing it causes too many problems and each pregnant woman is going through her own personal situation that the government doesn't need to intervene in.

We also think there are other, more effective ways at reducing abortions, that the American right seems completely uninterested in entertaining.

Every person ever is going through their own personal situation. This argument could be extended to excusing more or less any crime. Government exists to protect individuals from other individuals. I can think of no better case for government intervention than protecting innocents from having their lives ended.

larry culpepper said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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There are so many people here trying to explain away their fervent belief in the righteousness of abortion, it can only be explained by demonic oppression.

It wasn't always this way, abortion proponents USED to say it was horrible but sometimes appropriate given circumstance. We've gone from "safe, legal and rare" to "top bidder gets to have me shout out their name during my livestreamed abortion procedure"

---

Yeah, no one is saying that, dude. We do think it should be safe, legal, and rare.

Contrary to the f16 narrative, most pro choicers are not gung ho enthusiastic about abortion. We just think it should be a legally available option because outlawing it causes too many problems and each pregnant woman is going through her own personal situation that the government doesn't need to intervene in.

We also think there are other, more effective ways at reducing abortions, that the American right seems completely uninterested in entertaining.

---

We're on page 12 of a thread where a bunch of pro-aborts are throwing every excuse in the book from "it's a woman's right to choose, God's evil, how do we even know God doesn't like murder, where in the bible does it say abortion is bad", so forgive me if I'm missing the "this is terrible but not our place to regulate" dissertation.

Joe Boudain said:

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"top bidder gets to have me shout out their name during my livestreamed abortion procedure"

---

It's natural for threads to get way off topic after this many pages.

And people are voicing strong opinions about it and getting angry because our governor is dead set on making it 100% illegal. That's going to bring lots of opinionated people out of the woodwork.

I'd say all the Bible/God stuff is coming up because religion is the direct reason why our state government is passing these new laws, and many of us nonreligious people have some serious problems with people imposing their religious views on others. I obviously have no issue with people personally being against abortion. I do have problems with said people thinking their views should be the law. Not everyone thinks that terminating a pregnancy in the early stages of pregnancy is tantamount to murder, and a lot of people take issue with the vigilante system that this new law allows.

Point being, no one is "thrilled" about abortion and it's a very personal decision for the pregnant woman. I'm just saying it should be a legal option and there are other, more effective ways to drive down the numbers.

Without invoking religion please explain why it's ok to abort a fetus at 3 months but not 6, or after birth, or two months after birth.

Thanks.

larry culpepper said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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There are so many people here trying to explain away their fervent belief in the righteousness of abortion, it can only be explained by demonic oppression.

It wasn't always this way, abortion proponents USED to say it was horrible but sometimes appropriate given circumstance. We've gone from "safe, legal and rare" to "top bidder gets to have me shout out their name during my livestreamed abortion procedure"

---

Yeah, no one is saying that, dude. We do think it should be safe, legal, and rare.

Contrary to the f16 narrative, most pro choicers are not gung ho enthusiastic about abortion. We just think it should be a legally available option because outlawing it causes too many problems and each pregnant woman is going through her own personal situation that the government doesn't need to intervene in.

We also think there are other, more effective ways at reducing abortions, that the American right seems completely uninterested in entertaining.

---

You have dodged this three times now. I have explicitly pointed out that abortions are not rare and restrictions do work in reducing overall abortion numbers.

Your own reasoning belies that you don't consider fetuses as human. Hemorrhoids are a 'personal situation.' Abortions are murder.

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/abortion/

I'm going to keep bringing this up until you listen to that podcast, because you enjoy peddling false information on this board about the rate of abortions, and the effectiveness of restricting abortions.

Remember, that podcast is showing a bonafide link that abortion rates show up as a drop in crime. You can see crime drop 14-18 years later in areas that have newfound abortion access. The bedrock of this study is that if you increase availability of abortions-the total number will go up. All of their research is built upon that. I for one, don't care about the increase in crime, I don't believe crime increase should be a death sentence.

larry culpepper said:

---

I'd say all the Bible/God stuff is coming up because religion is the direct reason why our state government is passing these new laws, and many of us nonreligious people have some serious problems with people imposing their religious views on others. I obviously have no issue with people personally being against abortion. I do have problems with said people thinking their views should be the law. Not everyone thinks that terminating a pregnancy in the early stages of pregnancy is tantamount to murder, and a lot of people take issue with the vigilante system that this new law allows.

---

I'm always curious when I hear this argument, what are religious people supposed to do when it comes to politics? If they didn't allow their religion to play a part they would essentially have two choices: don't participate or violate their conscience.

Zobel said:

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Quote:

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How's that? Do you actually have a say in whether you're born or not? Or the circumstances of your birth? Do you have a say in whether you have to abide by God's rules, no matter how illogical they appear? If you refuse to abide by those rules, are you not punished?

---

It's not a set of rules any more than gravity or fire is a set of rules. You jump off of a high structure you will get hurt. You touch something hot you will get burned.

The entire way you've framed it is as if is arbitrary. God's up there with an unwinnable game and a list of gotchas and provisos, then as soon as a person has an oops he gleefully "kills or tortures them without recourse". There's no good faith to describing it as "any deviation can result in eternal torture." It's ridiculous and in no way represents the faith of Christianity.

God doesn't tell Adam "if you do this I will kill you" but "if you do this you will die." There is no way you think that what you said is a reasonable explanation of the Christian faith.

---

Except in this case, there's no functional difference between an omnipotent being killing you and allowing you to die. Those are essentially the same. It's also still the case that you have no say in the game. You're part of it regardless of whether you want to be or not. You have essentially no rights.

Zobel said:

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Without invoking religion please explain why it's ok to abort a fetus at 3 months but not 6, or after birth, or two months after birth.

Thanks.

---

A fetus at 6 months is capable of surviving outside of the womb. It is capable of life independent of the one carrying it.

Sapper Redux said:

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Zobel said:

---

Quote:

---

How's that? Do you actually have a say in whether you're born or not? Or the circumstances of your birth? Do you have a say in whether you have to abide by God's rules, no matter how illogical they appear? If you refuse to abide by those rules, are you not punished?

---

It's not a set of rules any more than gravity or fire is a set of rules. You jump off of a high structure you will get hurt. You touch something hot you will get burned.

The entire way you've framed it is as if is arbitrary. God's up there with an unwinnable game and a list of gotchas and provisos, then as soon as a person has an oops he gleefully "kills or tortures them without recourse". There's no good faith to describing it as "any deviation can result in eternal torture." It's ridiculous and in no way represents the faith of Christianity.

God doesn't tell Adam "if you do this I will kill you" but "if you do this you will die." There is no way you think that what you said is a reasonable explanation of the Christian faith.

---

Except in this case, there's no functional difference between an omnipotent being killing you and allowing you to die. Those are essentially the same. It's also still the case that you have no say in the game. You're part of it regardless of whether you want to be or not. You have essentially no rights.

---

Then your version of free will requires immortality and to be above the physical laws of this universe. You demand to not die and not be bound by gravity.

Humanity has always wanted to be God instead of in His image.

Terrible argument. Children aren't independent for years after birth and require constant attention to stay alive.