John Piper and Election 2020

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PacifistAg
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In reply to chuckd • 11:15a, 10/23/20
AG
chuckd said:
I guess my point is being lost because you continue to insult President Trump who is now devoid of character along with his followers. That is a completely unloving statement.

Uh, Trump's lack of character is no secret. The guy has cheated on every wife he's had. He lies constantly. He bullies and mistreats people. And I don't recall claiming his followers are devoid of character. And you claim I insulted his followers, but you even said:
Quote:
Do you think the arrogance, vulgarity, etc. comes from leaders? I say it comes from the citizens

Why do you insult citizens like that? So unloving, right?

I'm not missing your point. I see it all too clearly. You said the increased vulgarity is the fault of "the citizens". I believe that we tend to emulate those we follow. We see it throughout scripture. Heck, it's what being a follower of Christ requires. I'm not sure why you think it's any different because Trump.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to chuckd • 11:26a, 10/23/20
AG
chuckd said:
I guess my point is being lost because you continue to insult President Trump who is now devoid of character along with his followers. That is a completely unloving statement.
And why is it "unloving" when I point to the leader's behavior as an influence on his followers, but not when you point to the follower's behavior? Especially when you blame the "citizens", which ignores the fact that there are millions of citizens who are not arrogant and vulgar. You unfairly, and extremely unlovingly, lump good people under a serious accusation.

Such a bizarro world...I accuse a habitual liar who demeans, insults, and bullies people and who has cheated on every wife of "lacking character", and I am "unloving". But you accuse me of being "unloving" because I point out these problems, and that's apparently a-ok.
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Frok
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In reply to PacifistAg • 11:40a, 10/23/20
AG
PacifistAg said:
Frok said:
I think there is a strong temptation to be "above it" in regards to politics. Not voting gives you a sense of moral high ground.

I will not pretend to be morally righteous. I'm voting.



Maybe I'm just inferring something you aren't actually implying, but it sounds like you're saying that people who aren't voting are essentially "virtue signaling". There are very valid and principled reasons to not vote. I don't think it's about "pretending to be morally righteous". If voting would require one to violate their conscience or convictions, they shouldn't do it. For me, it's not about some "moral high ground", but about my principles. Specifically about the state and how I'm called to interact with the state as a follower of Christ. Or even more specifically, my views on the inherently violent nature of the state and how it is incompatible with where my faith has taken me.


My comment wasn't created with you in mind, I know your position and what's behind it. It was based off my own feelings. Very often I will have this superior attitude as if I am above the political scuffle in this country. It's an easy position to have because there is not much baggage that comes with it. But this time around I am not going to lie to myself, I clearly want one direction over the other and I'm voting.

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PacifistAg
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In reply to Frok • 11:44a, 10/23/20
AG
Frok said:
PacifistAg said:
Frok said:
I think there is a strong temptation to be "above it" in regards to politics. Not voting gives you a sense of moral high ground.

I will not pretend to be morally righteous. I'm voting.



Maybe I'm just inferring something you aren't actually implying, but it sounds like you're saying that people who aren't voting are essentially "virtue signaling". There are very valid and principled reasons to not vote. I don't think it's about "pretending to be morally righteous". If voting would require one to violate their conscience or convictions, they shouldn't do it. For me, it's not about some "moral high ground", but about my principles. Specifically about the state and how I'm called to interact with the state as a follower of Christ. Or even more specifically, my views on the inherently violent nature of the state and how it is incompatible with where my faith has taken me.


My comment wasn't created with you in mind, I know your position and what's behind it. It was based off my own feelings. Very often I will have this superior attitude as if I am above the political scuffle in this country. It's an easy position to have because there is not much baggage that comes with it. But this time around I am not going to lie to myself, I clearly want one direction over the other and I'm voting.

Understand. Like I have said, my decision is my decision. I am not going to sit here and say everyone should do as I do. Would I love that? Obviously! But if you feel led to cast a vote, please do. I understand the reasoning of trying to "minimize" the damage by voting for the perceived "lesser evil".
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UTExan
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11:53a, 10/23/20
Take it to the Politics board!
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
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AGC
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1:39p, 10/23/20
AG
I enjoyed this reply:

https://americanvision.org/24777/my-response-to-john-pipers-paths-to-ruin-article/

Quote:
Again, I'm not sure what Piper means with the following statement:

Piper said:
I think Roe is an evil decision. I think Planned Parenthood is a code name for baby-killing and (historically at least) ethnic cleansing. And I think it is baffling and presumptuous to assume that pro-abortion policies kill more people than a culture-saturating, pro-self-pride.

When a leader models self-absorbed, self-exalting boastfulness, he models the most deadly behavior in the world. He points his nation to destruction. Destruction of more kinds than we can imagine.

It is naive to think that a man can be effectively pro-life and manifest consistently the character traits that lead to deathtemporal and eternal.


What is he talking about? Speak plainly or forever hold your peace. It's no wonder millions of Christians are directionless. Their spiritual leaders are like a spinning compass as the following from Piper attests:

Piper said:
Where does that leave me as I face a civic duty on November 3? Here's my answer. I do not require anyone to follow me (as if I could)not my wife, not my friends, not my colleagues.

With a cheerful smile, I will explain to my unbelieving neighbor why my allegiance to Jesus set me at odds with deathdeath by abortion and death by arrogance.

I will not develop some calculus to determine which path of destruction I will support. That is not my duty.


A man in his position should be leading not equivocating. "Death by arrogance"? What specifically does he have in mind?
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dermdoc
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In reply to AGC • 1:50p, 10/23/20
AG
Great read. Thanks.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Aggrad08
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In reply to NoahAg • 3:31p, 10/23/20
AG
NoahAg said:
I get what he's saying but the practical implication leaves us with the only option being to write in "Jesus" for every local, state, and federal election.

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Patriot101
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6:32p, 10/23/20
It's ok. Piper is a better preacher. But Douglas Wilson is a better writer, especially on this topic.

Not that I don't agree with the sentiment expressed by Piper.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to chap • 7:38p, 10/23/20
AG
chap said:
This idea that we have a bad person who supports good policies vs a good person who supports bad policies is ridiculous. Especially if you then try to nudge down some slope that the "badness" of the bad person might somehow outweigh the "badness" of the bad policies.

I like how Allie Beth Stuckey summed it up yesterday.

Its not that Trump is a bad person. Its that his entire political strategy has been to find a base and encourage them to hate everyone who disagrees with them. He is unapologetically and flagrantly hateful. His sin is not that he sleeps around, its that he continuously cements his position with his base by convincing them that the other half of the country is literally the enemy.

Its not a choice between a bad person with good policies and a good person with bad policies. Its a choice between a bad person with questionable policies and a bad person with questionable policies who is actively trying to dismantle our democracy. . . but I guess as long as He pays lip service to the stuff you care about. . . . its all good.
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AGC
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 8:41p, 10/23/20
AG
kurt vonnegut said:
chap said:
This idea that we have a bad person who supports good policies vs a good person who supports bad policies is ridiculous. Especially if you then try to nudge down some slope that the "badness" of the bad person might somehow outweigh the "badness" of the bad policies.

I like how Allie Beth Stuckey summed it up yesterday.

Its not that Trump is a bad person. Its that his entire political strategy has been to find a base and encourage them to hate everyone who disagrees with them. He is unapologetically and flagrantly hateful. His sin is not that he sleeps around, its that he continuously cements his position with his base by convincing them that the other half of the country is literally the enemy.

Its not a choice between a bad person with good policies and a good person with bad policies. Its a choice between a bad person with questionable policies and a bad person with questionable policies who is actively trying to dismantle our democracy. . . but I guess as long as He pays lip service to the stuff you care about. . . . its all good.


Dismantle democracy? Like deprive people of due process via the Dept of Ed.? Put kids in cages? Ban travel from seven select Muslim countries? Create DACA? Weaponize the IRS against conservative groups? Use the FBI to spy domestically? Have people under his employ wipe hard drives and cell phones to cover up evidence of malfeasance? Send billions of dollars cash overseas with no permission or accountability?

You sure you got the right guy?
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Zobel
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 8:47p, 10/23/20
AG
The lack of self awareness in this post transcends irony. The hateful political climate and vitriol precedes President Trump by a decade.
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Ags4DaWin
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In reply to PacifistAg • 11:19p, 10/23/20
PacifistAg said:
kurt vonnegut said:
I suspect there will be some rebuttal against that post - Biden and Clinton and others have said hateful things about the right and about conservatives as well. I just don't think you can compare them in this regard to a man who spends 12 hours a day on Twitter insulting others and being hateful.
Definitely. Neither side is immune to disgusting and hateful behavior, nor is either side immune from bad policy. One is worse w/ regards to policy. One is worse with regards to hateful, arrogant behavior. But both are guilty of both aspects.


Only one side is actually trying to remove religion, specifically Christianity from the public square and if they have their way use the state to suppress Christian values.

I think I will vote to keep my religious liberty and vote to keep those who wish to continue to erode those liberties via the tyranny of the state out of office.

Only one side, the side that supports BLM, Antifa, etc whose stated goals are the destruction of Judea Christian values and the nuclear family is trying to suppress those liberties whether they do it via Obama care and forcing Christians to pay for abortions or by forcing Christians to support gay marriage.

So you keep your "priniciples" and look down your nose at me. I will proudly vote to keep my religious liberty which allows me to continue to serve Christ as best as I can and build the Kingdom of God.
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Ags4DaWin
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 11:25p, 10/23/20
kurt vonnegut said:
chap said:
This idea that we have a bad person who supports good policies vs a good person who supports bad policies is ridiculous. Especially if you then try to nudge down some slope that the "badness" of the bad person might somehow outweigh the "badness" of the bad policies.

I like how Allie Beth Stuckey summed it up yesterday.

Its not that Trump is a bad person. Its that his entire political strategy has been to find a base and encourage them to hate everyone who disagrees with them. He is unapologetically and flagrantly hateful.


Trump has NEVER encouraged violence against people or property. He has always condemned it.

Funny how you conveniently forget that Pelosi and Beto have actively called for confrontation with conservatives, even violence "when you see them on the street or in restaurants".

Biden has called Antifa "an idea" and refused to denounce them. Trump by comparison has denounced white supremacy over and over again. Biden may not overtly encourage violence but his refusal to condemn and even acknowledge the violence in the cities that have been burned by Antifa and BLM has and will continue to allow it to happen.

keep believing the MSM narrative that Trump is vitriolic and encouraging violence. His constituents are not the ones punching out people's teeth for disagreeing, nor are his constituents the ones burning cities, attacking police officers.

There is only one side encouraging those actions....and deep down you know which side that is.
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lobopride
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9:04p, 10/24/20
I think the biggest problem I have with Piper's argument is that none of us know what a person really is like behind closed doors. I assume all politicians are bent towards sin because all humans are bent towards sin. I fight against my sinful nature every day. Some days I fight better than others. If I was running for President Mr Piper wouldn't see any obvious "pride" that would turn him off from voting for me, but that might mean I was just better at hiding my pride.

I have two criteria when voting:
The first is abortion. I believe abortion kills a human being and therefore it should be illegal. I get these values from the Bible.
My second is gun rights. I see how depraved human nature is in respect to power in the hands of politicians and governments and how a weak citizenry is asking for abuse.

I vote for policy and values not whether I would want the person I'm voting for to be my pastor.
I am a slave of Christ
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Ags4DaWin • 1:58p, 10/25/20
AG
Ags4DaWin said:
kurt vonnegut said:
chap said:
This idea that we have a bad person who supports good policies vs a good person who supports bad policies is ridiculous. Especially if you then try to nudge down some slope that the "badness" of the bad person might somehow outweigh the "badness" of the bad policies.

I like how Allie Beth Stuckey summed it up yesterday.

Its not that Trump is a bad person. Its that his entire political strategy has been to find a base and encourage them to hate everyone who disagrees with them. He is unapologetically and flagrantly hateful.


Trump has NEVER encouraged violence against people or property. He has always condemned it.

Funny how you conveniently forget that Pelosi and Beto have actively called for confrontation with conservatives, even violence "when you see them on the street or in restaurants".

Biden has called Antifa "an idea" and refused to denounce them. Trump by comparison has denounced white supremacy over and over again. Biden may not overtly encourage violence but his refusal to condemn and even acknowledge the violence in the cities that have been burned by Antifa and BLM has and will continue to allow it to happen.

keep believing the MSM narrative that Trump is vitriolic and encouraging violence. His constituents are not the ones punching out people's teeth for disagreeing, nor are his constituents the ones burning cities, attacking police officers.

There is only one side encouraging those actions....and deep down you know which side that is.


I just can't get past your first sentence. Trump has never encouraged violence? God . . . I hope I'm being trolled.
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Zobel
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 2:04p, 10/25/20
AG
I would like to see citations on President Trump encouraging violence. That's actually a sincere request.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Zobel • 8:02p, 10/25/20
AG
Zobel said:
I would like to see citations on President Trump encouraging violence. That's actually a sincere request.


Where is the line at which you'll say he is inciting violence? If I offer this quote about Hillary,

"If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the second amendment people, maybe there is, I don't know. But I'll tell you what, that will be a horrible day."

. . . will you just say "well he didn't actually tell anyone to kill Hillary.

I sorta have a feeling that anything short of a quote saying "I Donald J Trump want my supporters to go murder some liberals." You'll dismiss. Right? So what's the point, here? You can do a google search just like I can. If you think the quote above isn't inciting violence, then I think we have different standards on what is acceptable for a leader to say.
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Zobel
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 8:25p, 10/25/20
AG
I would say that is not encouraging violence, no. If that is the best you've got I think your case is pretty weak.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Zobel • 9:07p, 10/25/20
AG
Zobel said:
I would say that is not encouraging violence, no. If that is the best you've got I think your case is pretty weak.


That Trump invites violence was never my point. It's just something that Ags4DaWin said that I thought was absurd. And I think your dismissal of the quote above is alarming.

My real beef with him is how openly hateful he is. He is the antithesis of civility in politics.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 9:07p, 10/25/20
AG
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Zobel
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 9:11p, 10/25/20
AG
Again. Openly hateful precedes this administration by quite a bit. He isn't the cause, he's a symptom.
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Serotonin
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 9:19p, 10/25/20
AG
Unless I'm missing context the way I read your quote is:

If she picks judges then there's nothing you can do, you will be persecuted and your rights will be trampled.

However, you folks who care about the second amendment, you could fight the ensuing persecution , but it would be horrible.
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Aggrad08
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In reply to Zobel • 9:19p, 10/25/20
AG
Zobel said:
Again. Openly hateful precedes this administration by quite a bit. He isn't the cause, he's a symptom.


He's both
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Zobel
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 9:38p, 10/25/20
AG
I don't agree. I think a person like him could not have been elected except as a reaction.
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Aggrad08
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In reply to Zobel • 10:58p, 10/25/20
AG
Which is why he's both. We couldn't have elected that kind of man without issues but he being a man child further exacerbates the problem
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Zobel
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 11:03p, 10/25/20
AG
The guy says Pres. Trump's entire political strategy is to encourage hate, then acts shocked, shocked! when people point out this is silly. That isn't his strategy. And there's plenty of hate from the left. The issue isn't criticizing Pres Trump - he deserves it. It's the ridiculous one sided take on the current dynamic in American politics, and then having the audacity to cry hypocrisy.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Zobel • 8:48a, 10/26/20
AG
Zobel said:
The guy says Pres. Trump's entire political strategy is to encourage hate, then acts shocked, shocked! when people point out this is silly. That isn't his strategy. And there's plenty of hate from the left. The issue isn't criticizing Pres Trump - he deserves it. It's the ridiculous one sided take on the current dynamic in American politics, and then having the audacity to cry hypocrisy.

Please point out where I've defended Democrats and their hate and hypocrisy? From now on, I'll start every post with "The Democratic Party is a twisted political machine ripe with corruption, hate, greed, and hypocrisy. Its leaders generally care more about power and influence than they do about the American people or principles of decency." Maybe I'll make it part of my signature. If I do that, am I then allowed to criticize a conservative politician?

Trump does not build people up. He does not compromise. He does not respect those with different viewpoints. He does not tolerate any criticism of himself. He responds to everything that is not praise with petty childish reproach. The difference between Trump and other politicians is that he openly rejects the compromise and mutual respect that is needed for a democracy.
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Zobel
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 9:03a, 10/26/20
AG
A guy took the time to respond to you and you dismissed it out of hand without addressing any of the actual points. It's not that you defend it, its that you make a particular point to talk about how terribad President Trump is. You say "well, maybe Biden and Clinton...BUT TRUMP". The truth is, the entire political climate has devolved, and a LOT of that began with the Bush presidency.

You say he's "actively trying to dismantle our democracy" and "inciting violence." But when asked, you just point to a vague comment about the second amendment. I mean, it's so over the top it is ridiculous.

You can criticize whomever you want, whenever you want. But expect pushback if you set a different bar on one side than the other.

Quote:
Trump does not build people up. He does not compromise. He does not respect those with different viewpoints. He does not tolerate any criticism of himself. He responds to everything that is not praise with petty childish reproach. The difference between Trump and other politicians is that he openly rejects the compromise and mutual respect that is needed for a democracy.
Give me a break. What compromise is made in politics? Our entire dynamic for twenty (50? 100? 232?) years has been an escalating game of winner take all brinkmanship.

You nailed it though. The ONLY difference between President Trump and other politicians is that he is open about it. They all do the same thing, he just does it in the clear. What's more of a threat to the political process?
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Serotonin
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 9:13a, 10/26/20
AG
kurt vonnegut said:
Zobel said:
The guy says Pres. Trump's entire political strategy is to encourage hate, then acts shocked, shocked! when people point out this is silly. That isn't his strategy. And there's plenty of hate from the left. The issue isn't criticizing Pres Trump - he deserves it. It's the ridiculous one sided take on the current dynamic in American politics, and then having the audacity to cry hypocrisy.

Please point out where I've defended Democrats and their hate and hypocrisy? From now on, I'll start every post with "The Democratic Party is a twisted political machine ripe with corruption, hate, greed, and hypocrisy. Its leaders generally care more about power and influence than they do about the American people or principles of decency." Maybe I'll make it part of my signature. If I do that, am I then allowed to criticize a conservative politician?

Trump does not build people up. He does not compromise. He does not respect those with different viewpoints. He does not tolerate any criticism of himself. He responds to everything that is not praise with petty childish reproach. The difference between Trump and other politicians is that he openly rejects the compromise and mutual respect that is needed for a democracy.
I think that is exactly the point.

  • From 1932-1968 Democrats were the winning party in DC and the Supreme Court followed accordingly, with a string of many, many liberal court victories and the Left was dominating the culture wars.
  • From 1969-2020 Republicans have been the winning party in DC but the Supreme Court has not followed accordingly and the Left continues to dominate the culture wars.

From 2005-2015 same sex marriage was on the ballot 39 times in 35 states and got destroyed in a democratic process, with over 51 million against and 33 million in favor.

So what does the Supreme Court do in 2015? Legalize it with the Obergefell decision.

Then you had the King v. Burwell decision which upheld Obamacare by reframing the individual mandate as a tax.

Both decisions (made in 2015) were written by Republican court appointees, Kennedy and Roberts.

Context is important here. Trump was elected precisely because he represents an alternative to the status quo.
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AGC
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In reply to Zobel • 9:21a, 10/26/20
AG
If I may, I'd add that Twitter is a game changer for perception. Contempt for mainstream journalists is higher because people can see their actual thoughts every day for "free." We know what they think of anyone at any given time because they now keep a public diary that we can use to decode their columns. We can see what politicians of all stripes think of us in real time. Don says mean things. But we can see the lies constantly spread about him by these other parties (the lie about 'might fine people' for example). Is lying 'less' bad than pedantic behavior? Is there a reason to think those politicians don't act the same way behind closed doors? Do I take comfort knowing they're not mean to my face but duplicitous in advertising and social media? Has the phrase 'basket of deplorables' really disappeared so quickly that we think trump is the standard?

When faced with such poor choices, the party that advocates liberty for all is the one to ally with (though piper misses this). Mean tweets come with free speech and expression. Protests and church services come with free association. Gun violence and protection from an oppressive corrupt government come with 2A. Etc. No need to wait for martyrdom and oppression as a Christian.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Zobel • 11:58a, 10/26/20
AG
Zobel said:
A guy took the time to respond to you and you dismissed it out of hand without addressing any of the actual points. It's not that you defend it, its that you make a particular point to talk about how terribad President Trump is. You say "well, maybe Biden and Clinton...BUT TRUMP". The truth is, the entire political climate has devolved, and a LOT of that began with the Bush presidency.

You say he's "actively trying to dismantle our democracy" and "inciting violence." But when asked, you just point to a vague comment about the second amendment. I mean, it's so over the top it is ridiculous.

You can criticize whomever you want, whenever you want. But expect pushback if you set a different bar on one side than the other.

Quote:
Trump does not build people up. He does not compromise. He does not respect those with different viewpoints. He does not tolerate any criticism of himself. He responds to everything that is not praise with petty childish reproach. The difference between Trump and other politicians is that he openly rejects the compromise and mutual respect that is needed for a democracy.
Give me a break. What compromise is made in politics? Our entire dynamic for twenty (50? 100? 232?) years has been an escalating game of winner take all brinkmanship.

You nailed it though. The ONLY difference between President Trump and other politicians is that he is open about it. They all do the same thing, he just does it in the clear. What's more of a threat to the political process?

Sorry if I glossed over Ags4DaWin's post. I think that a lot of his points are exaggerated, but nevertheless still fall under the original premise of this post - that being that the democrats do not well represent Christian values. I'm not arguing that they do (or that they don't).

My position that Trump wishes to dismantle democracy is not a quick one to defend. Any argument I make defending that position, we could discuss back and forth for hours. You can call this a cop out, that's fine. I'm not willing to spend an entire week writing back and forth notes on this forum discussing it. I feel he is especially dangerous for our democracy and that position informs why I think its worthwhile to consider not just his policies when voting. At least for me - I'm not telling anyone else what to do.

What is the different bar I've set for democrats. Again, where am I defending them. They are their own dumpster fire.

I think that this 'escalating game of winner take all brinkmanship' is a problem. And I think that our current quality of discourse is a problem. If I understand you correctly, you think maybe that both sides are equally guilty. And 4 years ago I would have agreed, but I think Trump has poured gasoline on the fire in a whole new way. You don't have to agree. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying this is what I believe.
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Zobel
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 12:31p, 10/26/20
AG

Quote:
I think that this 'escalating game of winner take all brinkmanship' is a problem.
Agreed. However, it is part and parcel to a democracy and exactly the reason our country was founded without democratic election of senators and representative / indirect election of the executive.

Quote:
I think that our current quality of discourse is a problem.
We are a rough, crude society and I think our political discourse reflects it. So I'm not sure it's fair to say the level of political discourse is a problem unless we're also willing to extend that to the electorate which tacitly approves or outright accelerates the situation.

Quote:
If I understand you correctly, you think maybe that both sides are equally guilty. And 4 years ago I would have agreed, but I think Trump has poured gasoline on the fire in a whole new way.
I wouldn't say both sides are equally guilty. I would say our political environment is well suited to our country. In a game of escalating tit for tat the last party is always going to be the worst.

It's hard to say President Trump poured gasoline on the fire. I think our society poured gasoline on the fire, and President Trump was part of the resulting burn. Which produced things like him being decapitated or hung in effigy in response, or the absolutely insane rhetoric being slung around at all levels of our society. I'm not naive enough to believe this wasn't always there, but the Overton window has shifted dramatically as to what is acceptable political criticism in the public sphere. That window shift is what enabled a guy who tosses around third grade insults to get elected in the first place. Had he behaved like this in the 90s, people would have never accepted it. And the "literally Hitler" response would have been laughed out as well. It's all a joke.

In other words I think we are seeing a political process that is shocking to folks like you and me, but absolutely acceptable and warranted to other people. The real distinction we need to be making is not left or right, but those folks and us. You and I are the same, and we could hash out a disagreement, or have a beer and talk about our families or pop culture with basically the same level of rancor. You couldn't have that same discussion with the people on the other side of the line - and I suspect that's true for those on the left AND right.

The problem is not a dismantling of our democracy. The problem is the dismantling of our republic, which gave us a democracy, which is a known political instability.

I'd much rather have the nastiness out in the open so that the people can either approve of it or reject it. All President Trump did was rip off the facade. The ugliness was always there.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Zobel • 12:49p, 10/26/20
Patriot101
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7:02p, 10/26/20
https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/john-piper-me-and-the-cool-shame-election.html
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