More misogyny from Wilson's "church". This time, from an elder. Not surprising, given that Wilson sees no issue with calling women the "c-word" if it's to make some point:

More on Wilson. Followers of Christ should stay away from this man who is in desperate need of repentance:

I don't see anything wrong here.

Consider the Apostle Paul:


https://www.google.com/amp/s/koine-greek.com/2018/05/02/obscenity-in-paul-the-question-of-skubalon/amp/

Of course you don't. I'm sure you'd have no issue with another man calling your wife that, you know, just to make a point.

Given your avoidance of the subject, I assume you also have no issue with his covering for a pedophile and mishandling child sex abuse. Even blaming the parents of the victim.

This is close to:

Did you know that BH Carroll, founder of Southwestern Baptist Seminary was a smoker.
Ummmm I'm telling.

C. S. Lewis was a chain smoker. Ummmm I'm telling.

Charles Spurgeon smoked at well. Ummm I'm telling.

But your pastor probably quotes from them some...

Patriot101 said:

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I don't see anything wrong here.

Consider the Apostle Paul:


https://www.google.com/amp/s/koine-greek.com/2018/05/02/obscenity-in-paul-the-question-of-skubalon/amp/

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Btw, you're comparing the use of a term referring to feces to the use of a term meant to demean and degrade one who bears God's divine image?

PacifistAg said:

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Of course you don't. I'm sure you'd have no issue with another man calling your wife that, you know, just to make a point.

Given your avoidance of the subject, I assume you also have no issue with his covering for a pedophile and mishandling child sex abuse. Even blaming the parents of the victim.

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I have no idea about the case. Probably falls into the civil authorities investigation and role.

Patriot101 said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Of course you don't. I'm sure you'd have no issue with another man calling your wife that, you know, just to make a point.

Given your avoidance of the subject, I assume you also have no issue with his covering for a pedophile and mishandling child sex abuse. Even blaming the parents of the victim.

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I have no idea about the case. Probably falls into the civil authorities investigation and role.

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I posted links previously. Goodness, you will do anything to not criticize a misogynist that covers for pedophiles simply because he's in your tribe.

PacifistAg, you would make a good Puritan.

Patriot101 said:

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PacifistAg, you would make a good Puritan.

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It's puritanical to not call women the "c-word" or covering for pedophiles? And that's funny, because I often get accused of being too "liberal" theologically by some here. But hey, if believing we shouldn't demean and degrade those who bear God's image, or cover for pedophiles, is puritanical, so be it.

Oh, and I have no issue with "cuss" words. I think the f-word is the greatest word in the English language. What I do have a problem with are words whose sole purpose is to demean and degrade others. That's what Wilson used. But if you are fine with someone calling your wife that, then that's your call.

You should look into their beliefs.

Patriot101 said:

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You should look into their beliefs.

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The fact that you're making this accusation with any shred of seriousness tells me you don't know anything about me. I've been called many things. A Puritan is not one of them. It's even more laughable than you trying to justify Wilson calling a woman the b-word and c-word, or using the n-word, because Paul used a word that may be the equivalent of saying *****

But hey, if your definition of "Puritan" is simply one who opposes degrading people who bear God's image and who finds covering for child rapists to be evil, then that's on your and your historical ignorance. I'm done with you and your nonsensical goaltending for someone like Wilson.

Never ever read Martin Luther's "On the Bondage of the Will" and discuss it with people who have read it in German.

The book Martin Luther covered what Luther claimed was the hinge upon which the whole turned to bring about the Protestant Reformation. Also, it even helped Rome become more semi-Pelagian.

Presumed guilty before being proven innocent Is why the role is given to Caesar what is Caesars. They alone have the legitimacy to investigate.

We don't live in a theocracy.

Regardless, sheep are sheep.

Can you imagine the backlash if Churches went all out on doing internal investigations?
People lie. It's wrong. But ask anyone in law enforcement. Forget about forensics as well. No way the Church is to be the authority until the civil authorities find guilt.

Then they should be excommunicated and will be at Wilson's church.

Quote:

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The fact that you're making this accusation with any shred of seriousness tells me you don't know anything about me. I've been called many things. A Puritan is not one of them.

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The Reformers love the Puritans. That's his point.

Read through the epistles of the New Testament one more time and tell me that the church wasn't messy.

Quote:

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People lie. It's wrong. But ask anyone in law enforcement. Forget about forensics as well. No way the Church is to be the authority until the civil authorities find guilt.

Then they should be excommunicated and will be at Wilson's church.

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The pedophile admitted to it. His attorney was the legal counsel to New Saint Andrews College, which is tied to Christ Church. Wilson never warned their congregation that a known pedophile was in their midst. Wilson was one of the pedophile's chief counsellors, and even threatened the family that he was going to now deny the charges and force the victims (all younger than 9) to be cross-examined by the attorney who is legal counsel for their college. After the pedophile plead guilty, Wilson wrote to the judge asking that the penalties be "measured and limited". He was sentenced to life, yet somehow got out after 20 months. 6 weeks later, the pedophile was arrested for voyeurism. And elder at Christ Church then arranged an introduction between the pedophile and a female student at New Saint Andrews College (elder is a VP there). On their 2nd date, they got engaged. Wilson then performed the wedding for a known sex offender and pedophile.

You don't have to defend everything he does. Goodness. This doesn't even get into the atrocious mishandling of the Natalie Greenfield sex abuse.

Not only did Wilson not excommunicate sex offenders, he performed their freaking wedding ceremony.

Patriot101 said:

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Read through the epistles of the New Testament one more time and tell me that the church wasn't messy.

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I've read through it. I don't see where they cover for pedophiles and hide behind "well, we're just messy". Or where it's ever sanctioned to use grotesquely demeaning language towards others.

diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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The fact that you're making this accusation with any shred of seriousness tells me you don't know anything about me. I've been called many things. A Puritan is not one of them.

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The Reformers love the Puritans. That's his point.

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It's hard to know what his point is because he never explicitly addresses anything mentioned, and does everything possible to avoid topics that he doesn't like. Such as the vile behavior of people like Doug Wilson.

PacifistAg said:

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Quote:

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People lie. It's wrong. But ask anyone in law enforcement. Forget about forensics as well. No way the Church is to be the authority until the civil authorities find guilt.

Then they should be excommunicated and will be at Wilson's church.

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The pedophile admitted to it. His attorney was the legal counsel to New Saint Andrews College, which is tied to Christ Church. Wilson never warned their congregation that a known pedophile was in their midst. Wilson was one of the pedophile's chief counsellors, and even threatened the family that he was going to now deny the charges and force the victims (all younger than 9) to be cross-examined by the attorney who is legal counsel for their college. After the pedophile plead guilty, Wilson wrote to the judge asking that the penalties be "measured and limited". He was sentenced to life, yet somehow got out after 20 months. 6 weeks later, the pedophile was arrested for voyeurism. And elder at Christ Church then arranged an introduction between the pedophile and a female student at New Saint Andrews College (elder is a VP there). On their 2nd date, they got engaged. Wilson then performed the wedding for a known sex offender and pedophile.

You don't have to defend everything he does. Goodness. This doesn't even get into the atrocious mishandling of the Natalie Greenfield sex abuse.

Not only did Wilson not excommunicate sex offenders, he performed their freaking wedding ceremony.

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I'm pretty sure it was still an ongoing investigation.

We have this thing in our belief system in some odd book of the Bible that state "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

It kind of a big deal that Moses passed down. It's the foundation of this thing we call innocent until proven guilty. Sometimes it gets us in trouble because it is also applied by St. Paul as gossip. There are many warnings about gossipers existing. So there's that.

Patriot101 said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Quote:

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People lie. It's wrong. But ask anyone in law enforcement. Forget about forensics as well. No way the Church is to be the authority until the civil authorities find guilt.

Then they should be excommunicated and will be at Wilson's church.

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The pedophile admitted to it. His attorney was the legal counsel to New Saint Andrews College, which is tied to Christ Church. Wilson never warned their congregation that a known pedophile was in their midst. Wilson was one of the pedophile's chief counsellors, and even threatened the family that he was going to now deny the charges and force the victims (all younger than 9) to be cross-examined by the attorney who is legal counsel for their college. After the pedophile plead guilty, Wilson wrote to the judge asking that the penalties be "measured and limited". He was sentenced to life, yet somehow got out after 20 months. 6 weeks later, the pedophile was arrested for voyeurism. And elder at Christ Church then arranged an introduction between the pedophile and a female student at New Saint Andrews College (elder is a VP there). On their 2nd date, they got engaged. Wilson then performed the wedding for a known sex offender and pedophile.

You don't have to defend everything he does. Goodness. This doesn't even get into the atrocious mishandling of the Natalie Greenfield sex abuse.

Not only did Wilson not excommunicate sex offenders, he performed their freaking wedding ceremony.

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I'm pretty sure it was still an ongoing investigation.

We have this thing in our belief system in some odd book of the Bible that state "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

It kind of a big deal that Moses passed down. It's the foundation of this thing we call innocent until proven guilty. Sometimes it gets us in trouble because it is also applied by St. Paul as gossip. There are many warnings about gossipers existing. So there's that.

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All of that occurred after the pedophile initially admitted to his abuse. He then essentially asked for lenience, and officiated a pedophile's wedding, AFTER the pedophile had pled guilty to his abuse AND been busted for voyeurism after his release from prison.

Who here is bearing false witness? These are all established facts. Just because they paint your preferred misogynistic defender of slavery in a bad light doesn't make it "bearing false witness".

Just curious, did you feel the same way about the Catholic priests accused of sex stuff? Is it because this guy is a Calvinist?

dermdoc said:

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Just curious, did you feel the same way about the Catholic priests accused of sex stuff? Is it because this guy is a Calvinist?

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This is the problem of when we hold "pastors" to be above reproach, like he clearly does with Wilson. I grew up in a cult like that, and to criticize the "pastor" would be akin to criticizing God Himself. It's unconscionable in these bubbles.

I love Greg Boyd. He's by far my favorite modern theologian, but you better damn well believe that if he called women the c-word, used the n-word, called women "*****", or covered for a pedophile, I'd pray for his repentance but would not view him as an authority any longer. At the very least until he publicly repented. I don't care how much I agree with his theology, covering for pedophiles and demeaning people is a non-starter for me.

And while I don't agree with Calvinism and much of modern Reformed theology, there are Reformed theologians that are reputable. That display the fruits of the Spirit. We may disagree, but that's fine. Wilson is not one of these.

Also, consider reading the love chapter in the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians. "Love believes the best..."

You may just may be guilty of not doing so here.

"Love rejoices in the truth" is found in that passage as well. If the investigation was concluded by the proper authorities, since everyone loves separation of church and state, then shame on Wilson.

1 Corinthians 5:1

"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife."

I guess these red herring arguments used by the enemies of God's Grace, not you PacifistAg, are really nothing new under the sun.

Hope we all do better. Woe is me.

dermdoc said:

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Just curious, did you feel the same way about the Catholic priests accused of sex stuff? Is it because this guy is a Calvinist?

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No, Derm. We are all in this together.
But you see we actually mean it and have a foundation for unity to actually exist.

I'm not sure if I want to consider myself an Evangelical because the Reformed have struggled with the label. The Reformers predate Evangelicals. Similar to my respect in general for both the East and the West. Not sure if that made sense.

Anyway, I'm a very poor communicator.

The other thing is that I love the Alliance of Catholics and Evangelicals. It's a good thing, in my opinion.

Patriot101 said:

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Also, consider reading the love chapter in the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians. "Love believes the best..."

You may just may be guilty of not doing so here.

"Love rejoices in the truth" is found in that passage as well. If the investigation was concluded by the proper authorities, since everyone loves separation of church and state, then shame on Wilson.

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I'm believing the facts. How am I falling short of "believing the best"? The problem is that Wilson covered for a known pedophile. The fact is that Wilson and their church leadership has repeatedly mishandled sexual abuse cases within their church. The fact is that Wilson admits to using grotesquely demeaning and offensive language towards women, and uses the "n-word".

Quote:

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1 Corinthians 5:1

"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife."

I guess these red herring arguments used by the enemies of God's Grace, not you PacifistAg, are really nothing new under the sun.

Hope we all do better. Woe is me.

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Red herrings? Enemies of God's grace? Read the next damn verse:

Quote:

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"You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst."

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The pedophile and sex abusers were not removed from the midst at Christ Church. In fact, the "pastor" performed the rites of holy matrimony for the pedophile. And for all your harping about church shouldn't investigate these matters, see what Paul says next:

Quote:

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"For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and [d]I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided [e]to turn such a person over to Satan for the destruction of his [f]body, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the [g]Lord."

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Paul wasn't even there, and he has judged him as if he were present, and then decided to turn him over to Satan. He didn't say, "well, that's Caesar's job to deal with it".

PacifistAg said:

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More misogyny from Wilson's "church". This time, from an elder. Not surprising, given that Wilson sees no issue with calling women the "c-word" if it's to make some point:

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That's a bold move cotton.

Frok said:

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PacifistAg said:

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More misogyny from Wilson's "church". This time, from an elder. Not surprising, given that Wilson sees no issue with calling women the "c-word" if it's to make some point:

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That's a bold move cotton.

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lol right? His explanations in the thread don't make it any better. And this is the elder of a church.

Agree

PacifistAg said:

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Patriot101 said:

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Also, consider reading the love chapter in the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians. "Love believes the best..."

You may just may be guilty of not doing so here.

"Love rejoices in the truth" is found in that passage as well. If the investigation was concluded by the proper authorities, since everyone loves separation of church and state, then shame on Wilson.

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I'm believing the facts. How am I falling short of "believing the best"? The problem is that Wilson covered for a known pedophile. The fact is that Wilson and their church leadership has repeatedly mishandled sexual abuse cases within their church. The fact is that Wilson admits to using grotesquely demeaning and offensive language towards women, and uses the "n-word".

Quote:

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1 Corinthians 5:1

"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife."

I guess these red herring arguments used by the enemies of God's Grace, not you PacifistAg, are really nothing new under the sun.

Hope we all do better. Woe is me.

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Red herrings? Enemies of God's grace? Read the next damn verse:

Quote:

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"You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst."

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The pedophile and sex abusers were not removed from the midst at Christ Church. In fact, the "pastor" performed the rites of holy matrimony for the pedophile. And for all your harping about church shouldn't investigate these matters, see what Paul says next:

Quote:

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"For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and [d]I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided [e]to turn such a person over to Satan for the destruction of his [f]body, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the [g]Lord."

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Paul wasn't even there, and he has judged him as if he were present, and then decided to turn him over to Satan. He didn't say, "well, that's Caesar's job to deal with it".

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Okay. But they didn't live under the same system of government.

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Okay. But they didn't live in the same system of government.

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Lol do you honestly believe that mattered to Paul? No. You know why? Because Paul knew that as the body of Christ, our citizenship is with the Kingdom of God. Paul didn't need the man's civil authorities to make a moral judgement of grotesque immorality within the church before he would speak on it.

Plus, man's civil authorities already convicted this pedophile (because he ADMITTED to it), yet Wilson didn't "give him over to Satan" but instead lobbied for leniency and then performed the sacrament of marriage for the pedophile.

Such a weak copout.

"What precisely would Rod have wanted me to do? Would he want me to refuse to conduct the wedding, or would he want me to simply prohibit the wedding flat out? If I just refused to officiate, and Steven got married by a justice of the peace, what then? Would I have to excommunicate him for marrying? There is no biblical case for that. If his wife is fully apprised of all the facts, and she was, and she wanted to marry him, should I excommunicate them both for marrying? Don't I need a verse or something?"

Douglas Wilson

^^ is that the situation that you are referring to?

Ok. Wilson made a mistake.

Peter made a mistake or three or four.

Remember when Paul withstood Peter because he wouldn't eat with Gentiles?

This thing happens.

You are right. I'll just conclude that Wilson is guilty of covering for a known pedophile, even when the authorities were involved, I guess.

Patriot101 said:

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Ok. Wilson made a mistake.

Peter made a mistake or three or four.

Remember when Paul withstood Peter because he wouldn't eat with Gentiles?

This thing happens.

You are right. I'll just conclude that Wilson is guilty of covering for a known pedophile, even when the authorities were involved, I guess.

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Not all mistakes are the same. Covering for a pedophile is not the same as refusing to eat with Gentiles. Surely you can see that, right? I'm glad that you will concede that Wilson covered for a known pedophile, but there's no need to try to minimize it by pointing to the lesser mistakes of others (of which they repented). But, baby steps I guess.

I'll have to research it. Where is the link again?