Exactly. So I would argue that the god of the Bible does not give us true free will.

lespaul said:

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Texaggie7nine: If we have free will, that means we can make choices. Does God know which choices we will make? If so, then is it really a choice? If not, then it doesn't seem like God could be all knowing...

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Open Theism: A Basic Introduction

Ask an Open Theist (Greg Boyd)...Response

Open theism addresses this problem.

Texaggie7nine said:

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So you believe God NOT to be omniscient in most cases. How then to you explain scriptures such as

Isaiah 46:10

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:


or Revelation 1:8

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Also, do you believe all the prophets of the bible that have foreseen all the way to the end of times are more powerful than

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Quote:

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Isaiah 46:10

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

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You caught me off guard there, so I had to go read the whole chapter so I wouldn't take anything out of context.

I stated earlier that there are exceptions. I mentioned the prophets and I mentioned Jesus.

That whole chapter points to Jesus.

God knew he had something in store for humankind in sending His Son Jesus.

Quote:

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or Revelation 1:8

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

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What does this have to do with Him being omnipresent?

Quote:

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Also, do you believe all the prophets of the bible that have foreseen all the way to the end of times are more powerful than

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Please finish.

Texaggie7nine said:

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It means to know everything there is to know. Everything that has happened and everything that will happen.

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When you point to scripture it screams that the Lord only knows that which is worth knowing.

What's worth knowing you might ask?

The scriptures explain it best:

Quote:

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John 16:12-15 New International Version (NIV)

12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you."

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This exemplifies the Lords's omniscience!

So prophets see that most humans will reject God and or Jesus. Yet Jesus couldn't see that before creating us?

Texaggie7nine said:

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So prophets see that most humans will reject God and or Jesus. Yet Jesus couldn't see that before creating us?

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Why do you say, Jesus couldn't see it?

Yes.

If you can have free will without sin it seems god was a proper idiot for choosing this route. I usually see Christians acknowledge that and admit the concept of free will may not exist in heaven but then assert it's required for free will.

This has been dealt with centuries ago in Christian theology. If you look at things teleologically it makes a lot more sense.

Texaggie7nine said:

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It means to know everything there is to know. Everything that has happened and everything that will happen.

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Humans cannot live in the future. They can only live in the present. The truth is, the things that a human will choose to do in the future doesn't exist, has yet to be done.

The Lord's omnipresence allows Him to see what we do in the present, what we have done in the past and what we will do in the future (when it transpires).

These are the things that matter.

In regards to the future, who's to say anyone will live to tomorrow anyway? It's by God's grace and His will if we even see tomorrow.

Got a link?

Aggrad08 said:

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If you can have free will without sin it seems god was a proper idiot for choosing this route. I usually see Christians acknowledge that and admit the concept of free will may not exist in heaven but then assert it's required for free will.

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It's more speculation than anything else on what we will be in Heaven. That is entirely a mystery. What we do know is that the Lord will be there. His presence will suffice.

God never intended sin or evil to exist. Lucifer chose to sin and the byproduct of his actions is what we call evil.

Those Christians you mentioned are only speculating. No sense in getting worked up over predictions and speculation.


If all the Angels rebelled then that would be something to get worked up over. Not all of them chose the path that would banish them from heaven.

Another point that could be made is... if Lucifer was in Heaven and rebelled, what does that mean for Christians who make it to heaven? Will or will it not be possible to use one's free will to do the same thing Lucifer did.

So many questions. We won't know till we are there.

john32f said:

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1. On Judas. That's the pretty common interpretation of Jesus' words. Judas betrayed him, gave into despair, hung himself in a state of despair, and was condemned to hell.

2. On seeing god's glory leading to your death. Got a source for that? Sounds real nice and lovely and all that, but also kind of... like complete rubbish. I think all-powerful god could figure out a way to more concretely lay out the rules for us. You're sidestepping the significant issue, which is that a faith based approach to laying out rules for salvation is about the worst way possible to approach it. As a child, my mom telling me face to face in no uncertain terms that I shouldn't steal cookies from a cookie jar or there will be punishments would be a much more effective way of getting me to do so (and in no way jeopardize my free will) than if someone else who I've never met leaves me a note saying my mom told them to tell me not to steal cookies from the cookie jar lest there be consequences.

3. Paragraph was a bit jumbled. I edited it. Here're the cliff notes. Faith without any evidence is overrated.

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You can see hints and clues of God's Glory via his creation. The Earth, the Sun, the Moon and the Stars are all clues. The mountain highs and the valley lows. The ozone layer, the seasons, the sea and all life are clues to God's Glory.

The natural disasters that occur and man's helplessness to them are clues.

Don't ask me how Jesus knew one of his disciples would betray Him or how he knew Peter was gonna deny Him three times. Perhaps Jesus knew of their weaknesses and how Satan would exploit their weaknesses.

There are exceptions.

If this was directed toward me, this is a post about St Maximos' Ambiguum 7, and has the quote I was thinking of.

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/02/16/st-maximus-the-confessor-hell-and-the-final-consummation/

Quote:

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I am not implying the destruction of our power of self-determination, but rather affirming our fixed and unchangeable natural disposition, that is, a voluntary surrender of the will, so that from the same source whence we received our being, we should also long to receive being moved, like an image that has ascended to its archetype, corresponding to it completely, in the way that an impression corresponds to its stamp, so that henceforth it has neither the inclination nor the ability to be carried elsewhere.

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john32f said:

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I'm not going to bother going any further into point one or two with you because they're really not that material to my adjustment. The last thing I'll say is that you commented that my argument requires a significant amount of mental gymnastics while simultaneously putting forth the proposition the hell isn't that bad of a place and that people become comfortable with it. Theologically speaking there is no basis for that belief whatsoever. That should bother you. If it doesn't, you are trying to fit the data into your predetermined conclusion rather than following the data to the conclusion it leads you to.

With respect to my third point, you really don't seem to understand the distinction between making a decision without having the full picture (but having some of it) and making a decision with no evidence whatsoever,instead relying on faith. To be clear, the faith I'm describing here is belief in something that can be grounded in neither a self-evident truth nor in something that is physically observable. Given that belief in God requires faith, it is impossible to ascertain the probability that belief in God will be proven true. In any other circumstance, making a decision while lacking any knowledge of the probability of outcome would not be viewed as virtuous but foolish. That's not difficult to grasp. I don't understand then why faith is seen as virtuous and nothing you've said comes close to justifying the need for it.

PS I'm pretty damn good at sales because I'm good at quantifying value for people. I don't just tell them to have faith that what I'm selling them will be useful.

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Quote:

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That's not difficult to grasp. I don't understand then why faith is seen as virtuous and nothing you've said comes close to justifying the need for it.

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One fruit of the Holy Spirit is faith.

Quote:

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PS I'm pretty damn good at sales because I'm good at quantifying value for people. I don't just tell them to have faith that what I'm selling them will be useful.

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I didn't mean to disturb/offend you or make you mad.

is the majority of your prospective clients found via prospecting or referrals?

dds08 said:

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It grieves the Lord to create (bring into existence) someone and give him/her freedom, free-will, only to see His creation use that same free-will to choose greed at the expense of choosing righteousness. When we choose to not follow him, he starts to plunge into a deep grief. He only wants the best for us. (It's bad we even put the Lord in this position.) Then, as any parent knows, when they give their first child their first spanking, it certainly hurts them more than it hurts the kid.

Much like it hurts parents to give kids consequences, it hurts the Lord to send them (those who don't want to follow him) to Hell for eternity. But hey, that's life. At least the creation is only there if they want to be there.

God doesn't create beings just to condemn them to Hell. Beings use their own free will to send themselves to Hell.

All this considered, one must question if the Lord regrets or questions creating some folks like Judas or even Lucifer, to begin with. I don't know.

It's part of the job; of being the Creator, watching some of the creation go awry, unfortunately.

EDIT: Moreover, we (as the Lord's creation) make a huge mockery out of Him; going through the trouble of creating us at all, to begin with, when we allow our sin to go so far as to qualify us for Hell, especially given the alternative.

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I'm sorry. I don't want this discussion to devolve into any sort of nastiness, but this is the leavings of a large farm animal.

To compare parents having consequences to their child's behaviors and God sending someone to Hell for eternity (your words, not mine) is just asinine. Those of faith repeatedly talk about Justice being one of God's perfect virtues. There absolutely no way those two things can be viewed on the same plane regarding justice.

AstroAg17 said:

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Parental consequences are designed to correct behavior. Permanent consequences like the death penalty, a life sentence, or the classical hell are not, and they require giving up on a person.

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Once the Lord truly reveals Himself, some will want to get closer to Him.

On the other hand, He'll be merciful in allowing some to flee the best way they can.

I'm sure there are things worse than Hell and capital punishment.

You don't want to play with someone who can damage you just by being in His true presence.

We take for granted that he's omnipresent, but not present in certain ways.

dds08 said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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Parental consequences are designed to correct behavior. Permanent consequences like the death penalty, a life sentence, or the classical hell are not, and they require giving up on a person.

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Once the Lord truly reveals Himself, some will want to get closer to Him.

On the other hand, He'll be merciful in allowing some to flee the best way they can.

I'm sure there are things worse than Hell and capital punishment.

You don't want to play with someone who can damage you just by being in His true presence.

We take for granted that he's omnipresent, but not present in certain ways.

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This doesn't even remotely address the point being made.

dds08 said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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Parental consequences are designed to correct behavior. Permanent consequences like the death penalty, a life sentence, or the classical hell are not, and they require giving up on a person.

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Once the Lord truly reveals Himself, some will want to get closer to Him.

On the other hand, He'll be merciful in allowing some to flee the best way they can.

I'm sure there are things worse than Hell and capital punishment.

You don't want to play with someone who can damage you just by being in His true presence.

We take for granted that he's omnipresent, but not present in certain ways.

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There is absolutely no theological basis for what you are saying. I've literally never heard anyone besides you get to argue that hell isn't so bad and it's God's mercy that allows people to occupy hell. Great that you think that I guess, but it isn't a Christian belief. Pretty sure the catholics would define it as heresy...

john32f said:

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dds08 said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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Parental consequences are designed to correct behavior. Permanent consequences like the death penalty, a life sentence, or the classical hell are not, and they require giving up on a person.

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Once the Lord truly reveals Himself, some will want to get closer to Him.

On the other hand, He'll be merciful in allowing some to flee the best way they can.

I'm sure there are things worse than Hell and capital punishment.

You don't want to play with someone who can damage you just by being in His true presence.

We take for granted that he's omnipresent, but not present in certain ways.

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There is absolutely no theological basis for what you are saying. I've literally never heard anyone besides you get to argue that hell isn't so bad and it's God's mercy that allows people to occupy hell. Great that you think that I guess, but it isn't a Christian belief. Pretty sure the catholics would define it as heresy...

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Yeah, but could you imagine if the Lord forced you to stay close to Him if you weren't a true follower of Him, for eternity?

When those who want to follow Him, meet with Him one day, he's going to put our souls to the fire as well to burn off all the impurities. If He were to try this on someone who didn't want to follow Him....I just cannot imagine.

That's great and all but that's not what Christianity teaches.

Macarthur said:

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dds08 said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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Parental consequences are designed to correct behavior. Permanent consequences like the death penalty, a life sentence, or the classical hell are not, and they require giving up on a person.

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Once the Lord truly reveals Himself, some will want to get closer to Him.

On the other hand, He'll be merciful in allowing some to flee the best way they can.

I'm sure there are things worse than Hell and capital punishment.

You don't want to play with someone who can damage you just by being in His true presence.

We take for granted that he's omnipresent, but not present in certain ways.

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This doesn't even remotely address the point being made.

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I sidestep questions of this sort:

Quote:

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Parental consequences are designed to correct behavior. Permanent consequences like the death penalty, a life sentence, or the classical hell are not, and they require giving up on a person.

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This sounds so childish.

It's like someone, who goes out, has unprotected sex with 100 people they met out in the street, contracts AIDs, then complains about the AIDs being permanent.

Seriously, that's what it sounds like. I don't want this thread going in that direction.

God doesn't give up on people. People give up on themselves.

Learn how to be responsible for how you use your free will. Don't whine about the consequences.

john32f said:

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That's great and all but that's not what Christianity teaches.

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What don't you agree with? Be specific.

I dunno if you are of the faith or not, but I've already encouraged all to go read the scriptures for themselves in hopes they will form their own interpretations, and conclusions.

I'm just sharing my interpretations. What the Holy Spirit reveals to one of His followers, may be different from what He reveals to another.

On the inside out looking out,

How does one keep from imagining a being out there who has their best interests at heart, wants them to reach their potential, keep them from certain kinds of peril, know the truth, and live abundant life to the fullest?

Why deny someone like that?

It's almost as bad as being against yourself in certain regards.

dds08 said:

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On the inside out looking out,

How does one keep from imagining a being out there who has their best interests at heart, wants them to reach their potential, keep them from certain kinds of peril, know the truth, and live abundant life to the fullest?

Why deny someone like that?

It's almost as bad as being against yourself in certain regards.

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IDK maybe talk to some other humans who don't experience that impulse? It's only inconceivable to you because you cannot stand outside of your own mind, culture, and experience.

dds08 said:

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john32f said:

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dds08 said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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Parental consequences are designed to correct behavior. Permanent consequences like the death penalty, a life sentence, or the classical hell are not, and they require giving up on a person.

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Once the Lord truly reveals Himself, some will want to get closer to Him.

On the other hand, He'll be merciful in allowing some to flee the best way they can.

I'm sure there are things worse than Hell and capital punishment.

You don't want to play with someone who can damage you just by being in His true presence.

We take for granted that he's omnipresent, but not present in certain ways.

---

There is absolutely no theological basis for what you are saying. I've literally never heard anyone besides you get to argue that hell isn't so bad and it's God's mercy that allows people to occupy hell. Great that you think that I guess, but it isn't a Christian belief. Pretty sure the catholics would define it as heresy...

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Yeah, but could you imagine if the Lord forced you to stay close to Him if you weren't a true follower of Him, for eternity?

When those who want to follow Him, meet with Him one day, he's going to put our souls to the fire as well to burn off all the impurities. If He were to try this on someone who didn't want to follow Him....I just cannot imagine.

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What about all the people who see no reason to believe in a judeo Christian god as mere humans but, after death, meet god in some way and are like "oh cool I get it. I'm down with heaven."

Macarthur said:

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dds08 said:

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It grieves the Lord to create (bring into existence) someone and give him/her freedom, free-will, only to see His creation use that same free-will to choose greed at the expense of choosing righteousness. When we choose to not follow him, he starts to plunge into a deep grief. He only wants the best for us. (It's bad we even put the Lord in this position.) Then, as any parent knows, when they give their first child their first spanking, it certainly hurts them more than it hurts the kid.

Much like it hurts parents to give kids consequences, it hurts the Lord to send them (those who don't want to follow him) to Hell for eternity. But hey, that's life. At least the creation is only there if they want to be there.

God doesn't create beings just to condemn them to Hell. Beings use their own free will to send themselves to Hell.

All this considered, one must question if the Lord regrets or questions creating some folks like Judas or even Lucifer, to begin with. I don't know.

It's part of the job; of being the Creator, watching some of the creation go awry, unfortunately.

EDIT: Moreover, we (as the Lord's creation) make a huge mockery out of Him; going through the trouble of creating us at all, to begin with, when we allow our sin to go so far as to qualify us for Hell, especially given the alternative.

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I'm sorry. I don't want this discussion to devolve into any sort of nastiness, but this is the leavings of a large farm animal.

To compare parents having consequences to their child's behaviors and God sending someone to Hell for eternity (your words, not mine) is just asinine. Those of faith repeatedly talk about Justice being one of God's perfect virtues. There absolutely no way those two things can be viewed on the same plane regarding justice.

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I'm not sure where you're going with your comment, but maybe this will help what I posted before. Judas wasn't the first person God questioned creating.

Quote:

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Genesis 6:5-8 New International Version (NIV)

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have createdand with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the groundfor I regret that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

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I believe He is called the "Heavenly Father" for a reason. He's like a parent, but the greatest parent anyone could have. He punishes those who disobey Him much like any loving, earthly parent would.

I have to use earthly examples, things people can understand, to create some kind of picture/point of reference folks can understand and will resonate with them.

How would you explain it?

Marco Esquandolas said:

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dds08 said:

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On the inside out looking out,

How does one keep from imagining a being out there who has their best interests at heart, wants them to reach their potential, keep them from certain kinds of peril, know the truth, and live abundant life to the fullest?

Why deny someone like that?

It's almost as bad as being against yourself in certain regards.

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IDK maybe talk to some other humans who don't experience that impulse? It's only inconceivable to you because you cannot stand outside of your own mind, culture, and experience.

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By default, anyone should be okay with anyone else if they are willing to show genuine, Philios love to them. Otherwise, you're making enemies out of prospective friends. Of course be wise about who you make a friend and exercise a heavy amount of scrutiny beforehand.


It's like that scene in Training Day where those two guys had bludgeoned and were about to kill that cop, but out came a picture of the girl he helped get out of trouble, their own niece.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Exactly. So I would argue that the god of the Bible does not give us true free will.

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On the contrary, the fact that ideas such as "forgiveness of sins" and "repentance " exist at all support claims of true free will.

We take for granted God's presence here on earth. If He weren't here, we couldn't help but do wrong all the time. It'd be chaos. If He left, that would severely cripple our free-will to do anything right.

dds08 said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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dds08 said:

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On the inside out looking out,

How does one keep from imagining a being out there who has their best interests at heart, wants them to reach their potential, keep them from certain kinds of peril, know the truth, and live abundant life to the fullest?

Why deny someone like that?

It's almost as bad as being against yourself in certain regards.

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IDK maybe talk to some other humans who don't experience that impulse? It's only inconceivable to you because you cannot stand outside of your own mind, culture, and experience.

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By default, anyone should be okay with anyone else if they are willing to show genuine, Philios love to them. Otherwise, you're making enemies out of prospective friends. Of course be wise about who you make a friend and exercise a heavy amount of scrutiny beforehand.


It's like that scene in Training Day where those two guys had bludgeoned and were about to kill that cop, but out came a picture of the girl he helped get out of trouble, their own niece.

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No idea at all what you are trying to say here.

My point was not everyone experiences this impulse to imagine an anthropomorphized deity.

dds08 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Exactly. So I would argue that the god of the Bible does not give us true free will.

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On the contrary, the fact that ideas such as "forgiveness of sins" and "repentance " exist at all support claims of true free will.

We take for granted God's presence here on earth. If He weren't here, we couldn't help but do wrong all the time. It'd be chaos. If He left, that would severely cripple our free-will to do anything right.

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So we are born to pretty much no choice to commit sin. We are born sinners. No one can resist sin. how is that free will?

Jesus' forgiveness and grace gives us the power to resist sin. Ok. So in order to have free will we need to find and accept Jesus.

So all the people all over the world practicing other religions, they have no free will?