Texaggie7nine said:

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dds08 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Exactly. So I would argue that the god of the Bible does not give us true free will.

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On the contrary, the fact that ideas such as "forgiveness of sins" and "repentance " exist at all support claims of true free will.

We take for granted God's presence here on earth. If He weren't here, we couldn't help but do wrong all the time. It'd be chaos. If He left, that would severely cripple our free-will to do anything right.

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So we are born to pretty much no choice to commit sin. We are born sinners. No one can resist sin. how is that free will?

Jesus' forgiveness and grace gives us the power to resist sin. Ok. So in order to have free will we need to find and accept Jesus.

So all the people all over the world practicing other religions, they have no free will?

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So we are born to pretty much no choice to commit sin. We are born sinners.

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Oh, come on. I thought you stated you knew scripture. Adam, Eve, and Jesus were the exceptions.

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No one can resist sin. how is that free will?

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Repentance exists; second only to outright obedience. People resist Satan.

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Jesus' forgiveness and grace gives us the power to resist sin. Ok. So in order to have free will we need to find and accept Jesus.

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This is too much of an oversimplification. Like I stated earlier, The Lord manifests himself at levels we cannot even begin to understand. Everyone's life journey is different. How one gets to Christ, or the Supreme Sovereign Ruler of All Creation or the Father/Spirit/Son will be different.

Everyone on earth must come to a certain point where they must think for themselves about life (areas where God manifests Himself): what love truly is, what evil is, what wisdom is, what honesty is, what means to be scrupulous or unscrupulous, what it means to be cheated or get good at cheating others, who a friend or enemy is, what it means to be efficient and not wasteful, what harmony is and is not, what it means to progress/advance or regress.

Unless you've been living in some hole in the ground under a rock, something in the above paragraph resonates with you or pretty much any other human being.

I can tell you a few things. When The Son came He came for all people: Jews, Christians, Robbers, Thieves, Pagan worshippers, tax collectors, harlots, you name it (Buddhists, Islamists, Hindus, etc). It was no longer Jew/Gentile where the only people had a chance for salvation were a son or daughter of Abraham.

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So all the people all over the world practicing other religions, they have no free will?

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Anyone find it awfully peculiar how we get so caught up on this thread about his free will, or her free will or our human free will at the expense of the talking about the source of all free-will?

Marco Esquandolas said:

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dds08 said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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dds08 said:

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On the inside out looking out,

How does one keep from imagining a being out there who has their best interests at heart, wants them to reach their potential, keep them from certain kinds of peril, know the truth, and live abundant life to the fullest?

Why deny someone like that?

It's almost as bad as being against yourself in certain regards.

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IDK maybe talk to some other humans who don't experience that impulse? It's only inconceivable to you because you cannot stand outside of your own mind, culture, and experience.

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By default, anyone should be okay with anyone else if they are willing to show genuine, Philios love to them. Otherwise, you're making enemies out of prospective friends. Of course be wise about who you make a friend and exercise a heavy amount of scrutiny beforehand.


It's like that scene in Training Day where those two guys had bludgeoned and were about to kill that cop, but out came a picture of the girl he helped get out of trouble, their own niece.

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No idea at all what you are trying to say here.

My point was not everyone experiences this impulse to imagine an anthropomorphized deity.

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That's not to say you were unable to! That would be selling your ability to imagine short. It's funny how news comes to us, requiring no impulse at all. Good news I might add.

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Unless you've been living in some hole in the ground under a rock, something in the above paragraph resonates with you or pretty much any other human being.

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Many cultures taught that the only valuable humans were those in your culture/tribe/community/ect. So humans have grown up throughout the ages that were taught there is nothing wrong with killing, stealing and destroying humans that are outside their tribe. They have love for one another. They love their god/gods. They value compassion in their groups. If you are one of their tribe members, they are absolutely good people.

How does one have absolute free will if one is born a sinner, destined to sin, and must repent for that sin and accept a savior in order to not suffer eternal separation from their creator?

True free will would be able to determine your action without external consequences put upon you by external powers.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Unless you've been living in some hole in the ground under a rock, something in the above paragraph resonates with you or pretty much any other human being.

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Many cultures taught that the only valuable humans were those in your culture/tribe/community/ect. So humans have grown up throughout the ages that were taught there is nothing wrong with killing, stealing and destroying humans that are outside their tribe. They have love for one another. They love their god/gods. They value compassion in their groups. If you are one of their tribe members, they are absolutely good people.

How does one have absolute free will if one is born a sinner, destined to sin, and must repent for that sin and accept a savior in order to not suffer eternal separation from their creator?

True free will would be able to determine your action without external consequences put upon you by external powers.

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Many cultures taught that the only valuable humans were those in your culture/tribe/community/ect. So humans have grown up throughout the ages that were taught there is nothing wrong with killing, stealing and destroying humans that are outside their tribe. They have love for one another. They love their god/gods. They value compassion in their groups. If you are one of their tribe members, they are absolutely good people.

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Well, at least we're in agreement about the experiencing of those things. Now, all it takes is one to question the source of those things. Sooner or later they will find what they are looking for. From what I know about The Lord and Satan, they help humans find what they are looking for. They gently remind them to keep looking as well. They leave clues!

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How does one have absolute free will if one is born a sinner, destined to sin, and must repent for that sin and accept a savior in order to not suffer eternal separation from their creator?

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I smell a trap. The Lord endowed the human race with free-will in the beginning. The term "sinner" is just a label for a designation. Moreover, the fact that all humans weren't created with that designation should tell you something!

"Destined to Sin" <- I don't like it. That would be as incredulous as saying Jesus, The Son of Man, was destined to sin. He was human.

There you go again. "Destined" We've already been through this. Humans don't exist in the future tense! They live/exist in the present. You give up on humans too quick.

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True free will would be able to determine your action without external consequences put upon you by external powers.

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How exactly can one even try to fathom what true free will is? The very act would be speculation conformed to one's own knowledge and understanding (putting it in a box).

If you go ask 10 people what true free-will is, you'll get 10 different answers, and who's to say one's answer is right or wrong? (there are no right/wrong answers)

I don't think you're too far off, but not acknowledging the source of all freedom, could be haphazard and dangerous. For one, mystery, and unknown is involved. Secondly, you may be led down a path you truly regret or have to turn around and go back, losing time and resources. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. You don't wanna be caught NOT following his way.


If there is a "true" free will, there's a false one too! Bank on it. How much time, money, energy, resources can you afford on false free will?


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It reminds me of the Israelites out in the wilderness.

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Deuteronomy 1 New International Version (NIV)
The Command to Leave Horeb
1 These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the wilderness east of the Jordanthat is, in the Arabahopposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. 2 (It takes eleven days to go from Horeb to Kadesh Barnea by the Mount Seir road.)

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Now, how long did they spend in the wilderness?

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True free will would be able to determine your action without external consequences put upon you by external powers.

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It seems like you're trying to use intelligence to define it, but with a touch of pride self-centeredness.

It's one thing to try and figure out what free will is (on one's own), but being separated from the source (the Holy Spirit) because of our sin makes it even more difficult; next to impossible.

[Edit] Besides, no being exists in a vacuum, all by itself (on it's own)

I haven't read the thread but I found your post and just read it after being totally humbled and inspired today.

I have never believed in God, despite being raised Christian. I am none the less very spiritual.

Anyway, my daughter was born this weekend (I'm holding her as she sleeps while I type this on my phone) and the doctor my wife had throughout the pregnancy was truly a great and genuine man. He filed my wife with so much love and care...I could not thank him enough.

Today, when I told him how dramatically he had touched our hearts and how grateful we were for his amazing work, his reply completely and totally humbled me and it brought me to tears.

"Thank you for your kind words. I am honored to the work I do. I am just an instrument."

I am just an instrument. Wow. There is no ego in that statement, just pure humility and deference to something greater. Yes I've heard people say that before... But on TV or something and not in a meaningful way. When this guy said it, and I knew intimately what a wonderful and amazing man he was, it has really struck me at my core and I can't stop thinking about it.

Maybe, just maybe, this moment will be something I look back on as evidence of God speaking to me. Regardless, in a world dominated by ego, it's an incredible reminder to live a life of service whether you're a believer or not.

(Sorry for interrupting any other conversations in progress here)

dds08 said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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dds08 said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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dds08 said:

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On the inside out looking out,

How does one keep from imagining a being out there who has their best interests at heart, wants them to reach their potential, keep them from certain kinds of peril, know the truth, and live abundant life to the fullest?

Why deny someone like that?

It's almost as bad as being against yourself in certain regards.

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IDK maybe talk to some other humans who don't experience that impulse? It's only inconceivable to you because you cannot stand outside of your own mind, culture, and experience.

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By default, anyone should be okay with anyone else if they are willing to show genuine, Philios love to them. Otherwise, you're making enemies out of prospective friends. Of course be wise about who you make a friend and exercise a heavy amount of scrutiny beforehand.


It's like that scene in Training Day where those two guys had bludgeoned and were about to kill that cop, but out came a picture of the girl he helped get out of trouble, their own niece.

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No idea at all what you are trying to say here.

My point was not everyone experiences this impulse to imagine an anthropomorphized deity.

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That's not to say you were unable to! That would be selling your ability to imagine short. It's funny how news comes to us, requiring no impulse at all. Good news I might add.

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I can imagine a neon green unicorn with a leprechaun riding on it. As much as I might want that to exist, simply imagining doesn't make it so. What's your point?

Oh, you're too kind. I cannot imagine how monumental this is for you, having a newborn baby! I bet it's a job just to hold back the ardor, excitement, and fun!

Congratulations!

and watch out for those clues!

The fact that forgiveness and repentance exists is proof the Supreme Sovereign Ruler of all Creation isn't a tyrant, despot or dictator.

Choice, freedom, and options!

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From what I know about The Lord and Satan, they help humans find what they are looking for.

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So satan is just a helper, so that those of us who don't want to be with god find our way to satan and our everlasting fun that we will have in hell?

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"Destined to Sin" <- I don't like it. That would be as incredulous as saying Jesus, The Son of Man, was destined to sin. He was human.

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So you believe God doesn't quite know the future. Ok. So His creation that He intended to be by his side and without sin for all eternity basically turned out to be an outright failure then. God never intended for man to fall, yet the vast majority of man does it seems. I would have to say that would make me question just how "perfect" this god is, if he cannot make a group of conscious beings that, at the very least, mostly choose love and to follow him.

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How exactly can one even try to fathom what true free will is? The very act would be speculation conformed to one's own knowledge and understanding (putting it in a box).

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Free will is a human term. Therefore we get to define it. What it means is, we truly have autonomy in our actions and choices with no external control or coercion.

If I stand in front of you and hold a gun to you face and tell you that if you say one word, I will kill you, do you really have free will to speak or not? If I then say "If you do say something, I will give you up to 10 minutes to apologize for talking and then I will not kill you, otherwise if you do not apologize for speaking, I will kill you after 10 minutes." Do I suddenly give you back true free will?

In both cases, I am controlling your free will with fear. You will not truly choose that which you WANT to do, because you are afraid of the consequences that I will bestow upon you. This is no different than the god of the bible and the threat of hell.

Apologists like to twist the scenario in to more of a warning than a threat, whereas Jesus and the bible are simply warning us of bad things that will happen brought about by our own actions, and God simply wants to save us. This would be like me telling you, as we stand on the curbside of a busy street "if you choose to step out onto that street, you will be ran over and killed". In this instance, it is not I that am controlling your free will because I am not threatening to do anything to you myself, I am just informing you of the dangers of walking into a busy street.

The problem with this is, God created that bus (hell) and everything else in the world. So the system is set up to punish you for doing something God doesn't want you to do. That is not giving free will.

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Secondly, you may be led down a path you truly regret or have to turn around and go back, losing time and resources.

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Na. All I have to do is ask for forgiveness after that then all is well.

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So satan is just a helper, so that those of us who don't want to be with god find our way to satan and our everlasting fun that we will have in hell?

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He's a fake, fraudulent type of helper.

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So you believe God doesn't quite know the future. Ok. So His creation that He intended to be by his side and without sin for all eternity basically turned out to be an outright failure then. God never intended for man to fall, yet the vast majority of man does it seems. I would have to say that would make me question just how "perfect" this god is, if he cannot make a group of conscious beings that, at the very least, mostly choose love and to follow him.

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I agree with what you stated earlier about Him being The Alpha and Omega. What that tells me is all creation begins, lives, and ends with Him.

He is the one who was, is, and is to come. The Lord knows the truth about the future. When he says it's over, then it will be over. Like I said earlier, he knows what's worth knowing; the truth of what has transpired in the past, the truth of what is transpiring, and what will transpire in the end.

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If I stand in front of you and hold a gun to you face and tell you that if you say one word, I will kill you, do you really have free will to speak or not? If I then say "If you do say something, I will give you up to 10 minutes to apologize for talking and then I will not kill you, otherwise if you do not apologize for speaking, I will kill you after 10 minutes." Do I suddenly give you back true free will?

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This hypothetical disregards personal liberties. I've heard somewhere that Victor Frankl had more personal liberty than his guards in the death camps of Germany, who were free.

Anyway, this is not how it works! This is not how any of this works! Please, stop spamming my thread.

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The problem with this is, God created that bus (hell) and everything else in the world. So the system is set up to punish you for doing something God doesn't want you to do. That is not giving free will.

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I expected this.

You oversimplify way too much. There 's way more to it than that and you know it.

As I stated in another thread, Paul did exactly what the Lord wanted, shared the Gospel, and suffered greatly. Jesus obeyed the Father and died a painful death on a cross.

Does a parent that never punishes or disciplines their young children for the wrong, or evil things they do truly love them?

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Na. All I have to do is ask for forgiveness after that then all is well.

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You cannot be this shallow.

On a different note, perhaps a better question about free-will, in regards to intelligence, is:

is there anything outside of what is true and what is false?

kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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What the flesh wants is contrary to love. The flesh can be swayed to do things that are not in our best interest and even lead to our own self-destruction.

Wouldn't paths that lead to self-destruction be contrary to the idea of "evolution?"

How could all this not convince someone that evil and good exists, or that there is a source of good/evil?

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I don't think its correct to say that evolution has our 'best interest' in mind. Or even to say that it couldn't lead to the self destruction of a species.

The genes that get passed on are the genes from the individuals that breed. Surely you can think of some behavior that is contrary to love and is not constructive for our species by our current day moral standards that have helped members of our species breed and pass along the genes that made them successful in breeding.

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I believe one thing we fail to see is the dissonance of it all. All life needs harmony.

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He is the one who was, is, and is to come. The Lord knows the truth about the future. When he says it's over, then it will be over. Like I said earlier, he knows what's worth knowing; the truth of what has transpired in the past, the truth of what is transpiring, and what will transpire in the end.

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Does He know for a fact if He will prevail in the end over evil?

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This hypothetical disregards personal liberties. I've heard somewhere that Victor Frankl had more personal liberty than his guards in the death camps of Germany, who were free.

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It does not disregard personal liberty. You have every liberty to speak if you so choose. I will not prevent you from speaking in the first place. All that remains is what will happen after you speak. Your personal liberty to speak is still there.

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Anyway, this is not how it works! This is not how any of this works! Please, stop spamming my thread.

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You made the assertion that God gives us "free will" because He sent Jesus to give us forgiveness. We can't question you and ask you to prove that statement?

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You oversimplify way too much. There 's way more to it than that and you know it.

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I think the problem in actuality is that YOU oversimplify it. "Well God said so, so there." "God forgives, so ..... free will. It's magic"

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As I stated in another thread, Paul did exactly what the Lord wanted, shared the Gospel, and suffered greatly. Jesus obeyed the Father and died a painful death on a cross.

Does a parent that never punishes their young children for the wrong, or evil things they do truly love them?

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Let's be clear. Nothing about this discussion on free will has anything to do with bad stuff that happens in this lifetime. God could sick wild bears on every Christian in the world every other day, and it still has nothing to do with free will because when talking about eternal living, all that matters is destination. 100% of it is about eternal destinations. Eternal punishments. Eternal rewards.

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is there anything outside of what is true and what is false?

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I think Quantum Mechanics makes it pretty apparent that there is.

dds08 said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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I don't think its correct to say that evolution has our 'best interest' in mind. Or even to say that it couldn't lead to the self destruction of a species.

The genes that get passed on are the genes from the individuals that breed. Surely you can think of some behavior that is contrary to love and is not constructive for our species by our current day moral standards that have helped members of our species breed and pass along the genes that made them successful in breeding.

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I believe one thing we fail to see is the dissonance of it all. All life needs harmony.

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What do you mean by this? I think its very easy to look at life as being in constant disharmony. Without disharmony, nothing changes or evolves.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Nothing wrong in my view. It's just that your views are quite different than the vast majority of Bible believing Christians. I'm just wondering if it is a product of finding a church or denomination that you really liked their message, or if you, like I did, came up with a lot of your own views of what the Bible says in order to keep your view of God's character in tact.

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So this wasn't entirely true, was it?

But no, seriously these are just my interpretations, FWIW. Perhaps you are getting a different interpretation.

Interpretations that are genuinely from the Holy Spirit are just that, interpretations. There are no right/wrong answers.

To argue would be like going in circles or a "chasing one's tail."

Texaggie7nine said:

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is there anything outside of what is true and what is false?

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I think Quantum Mechanics makes it pretty apparent that there is.

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Care to elaborate on how Quantum Mechanics falls outside the boundaries of what's true or not?

dds08 said:

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On a different note, perhaps a better question about free-will, in regards to intelligence, is:

is there anything outside of what is true and what is false?

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Is there anything outside of what is wise, prudent, and what is considered foolish? I know this is much more subjective.

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So this wasn't entirely true, was it?

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Not entirely, but on one of the biggest sticking points, I'd say it is.
You seem to think Hell is more of an alternate place to go than heaven, and if you aren't a fan of God, you would enjoy it more than heaven.

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Care to elaborate on how Quantum Mechanics falls outside the boundaries of what's true or not?

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Quantum Mechanics tells us that at the microscopic level, things can be both true and untrue at the same time. You can have particles that jump in and out of existence or are both in an exact spot and not at the same time. Things literally can exist as probabilities and have properties about them that are both true and untrue.

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Is there anything outside of what is wise, prudent, and what is considered foolish?

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Not sure I follow. Is it wise or prudent to color a picture of a horse? Is it foolish?

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He is the one who was, is, and is to come. The Lord knows the truth about the future. When he says it's over, then it will be over. Like I said earlier, he knows what's worth knowing; the truth of what has transpired in the past, the truth of what is transpiring, and what will transpire in the end.

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Does He know for a fact if He will prevail in the end over evil?

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When one is caught in their own lies or deception, truth always wins; and the one who led them to do those actions always deserts them at the moment they are found out.

You know this.

If people don't see, realize or respect how much power, and strength there is in truth alone...

dds08 said:

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When one is caught in their own lies or deception, truth always wins; and the one who led them to do those actions always deserts them at the moment they are found out.

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Are you talking in a cosmic sense?

kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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When one is caught in their own lies or deception, truth always wins; and the one who led them to do those actions always deserts them at the moment they are found out.

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Are you talking in a cosmic sense?

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No. In general on a personal level. The Lord give humans situations to discern truth for themselves. These are clues.

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Quantum Mechanics tells us that at the microscopic level, things can be both true and untrue at the same time. You can have particles that jump in and out of existence or are both in an exact spot and not at the same time. Things literally can exist as probabilities and have properties about them that are both true and untrue.

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This reminds me of the Lord's omnipresence.

dds08 said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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When one is caught in their own lies or deception, truth always wins; and the one who led them to do those actions always deserts them at the moment they are found out.

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Are you talking in a cosmic sense?

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No. In general on a personal level. The Lord give humans situations to discern truth for themselves. These are clues.

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In that case, you haven't been following politics in the past several decades, have you?. Better yet - I think lies and deception have always been a staple in any form of power structure and lies are far too often only accepted insomuch as the exposing of that lie offers that person access to said power.

Most people care more about being right and the power that it gives them than they care about what is true.

dds08 said:

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The fact that forgiveness and repentance exists is proof the Supreme Sovereign Ruler of all Creation isn't a tyrant, despot or dictator.

Choice, freedom, and options!

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He's the just, yet merciful and graceful Lord too! Far from ruling over creation by fear alone! He gives all the free-will to fear Him or not.

All must have experienced grace and/or mercy at one time or another, in some form or fashion.

Grace and mercy exist because of Him!

I digress. I'm rambling.

kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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When one is caught in their own lies or deception, truth always wins; and the one who led them to do those actions always deserts them at the moment they are found out.

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Are you talking in a cosmic sense?

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No. In general on a personal level. The Lord give humans situations to discern truth for themselves. These are clues.

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In that case, you haven't been following politics in the past several decades, have you?. Better yet - I think lies and deception have always been a staple in any form of power structure and lies are far too often only accepted insomuch as the exposing of that lie offers that person access to said power.

Most people care more about being right and the power that it gives them than they care about what is true.

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You have faith in this? Long-term?

Say it ain't so.

dds08 said:

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He is the one who was, is, and is to come. The Lord knows the truth about the future. When he says it's over, then it will be over. Like I said earlier, he knows what's worth knowing; the truth of what has transpired in the past, the truth of what is transpiring, and what will transpire in the end.

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Does He know for a fact if He will prevail in the end over evil?

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When one is caught in their own lies or deception, truth always wins; and the one who led them to do those actions always deserts them at the moment they are found out.

You know this.

If people don't see, realize or respect how much power, and strength there is in truth alone...

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When one is caught in their own lies or deception, truth always wins; and the one who led them to do those actions always deserts them at the moment they are found out. makes a mockery of them, then deserts them the moment they are found out.

He deserts/leaves them to face the consequences/justice alone, by themselves.

dds08 said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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When one is caught in their own lies or deception, truth always wins; and the one who led them to do those actions always deserts them at the moment they are found out.

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Are you talking in a cosmic sense?

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No. In general on a personal level. The Lord give humans situations to discern truth for themselves. These are clues.

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In that case, you haven't been following politics in the past several decades, have you?. Better yet - I think lies and deception have always been a staple in any form of power structure and lies are far too often only accepted insomuch as the exposing of that lie offers that person access to said power.

Most people care more about being right and the power that it gives them than they care about what is true.

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You have faith in this? Long-term?

Say it ain't so.

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It's not faith . . . It's history. People who want power use lies, cheating, stealing, and worse to get it. Those with power use lies, cheating, stealing, and worse to keep power. People are occasionally held accountable for those things, but it's far from some universal karmatic force.

Dictators often die in bed of heart attacks at old ages. Good people often tie hungry and cold. There is no balancing force of justice in this world. If you think there is in the next life, that's fine - but that isn't what you are saying.

dds08 said:

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dds08 said:

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He is the one who was, is, and is to come. The Lord knows the truth about the future. When he says it's over, then it will be over. Like I said earlier, he knows what's worth knowing; the truth of what has transpired in the past, the truth of what is transpiring, and what will transpire in the end.

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Does He know for a fact if He will prevail in the end over evil?

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When one is caught in their own lies or deception, truth always wins; and the one who led them to do those actions always deserts them at the moment they are found out.

You know this.

If people don't see, realize or respect how much power, and strength there is in truth alone...

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When one is caught in their own lies or deception, truth always wins; and the one who led them to do those actions always deserts them at the moment they are found out. makes a mockery of them, then deserts them the moment they are found out.

He deserts/leaves them to face the consequences/justice alone, by themselves.

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Truth always wins . . . Again, when was the last time you remotely followed politics? Of really any country? Or large business? Or organization? Or any other dynamic with a heirchy of power? Heirchies may be a necessary evil, but they are almost inherently corrupt.

Sometimes I wonder if he gets his arguments from a daily inspired message email list

~sigh!~

STAFF, PLEASE DELETE THIS THREAD!

This has been one of the most insightful threads I've ever read on this site. Why would you want it deleted? Just because one joke was made after seven pages of shockingly cordial and respectful debate?

Granted, as someone who grew up Christian but doesn't really know what to think/believe anymore, I sided more and more with 7nine and kurt the more I read, but you did bring up some interesting points here and there that truly made me think - even if, like others here have pointed out, your views in certain instances were so far removed from scripture that I don't even know if I would call them "Christian." Still, you opened my mind to certain interpretations I hadn't otherwise considered, and I truly appreciate the effort you put forth.

To 7nine and Kurt (and others) - thank you guys as well. So many thoughts, concerns, and feelings I've had over the years were so eloquently argued and presented by you guys. Just spot-on, level-headed stuff.

In other words, awesome effort all around, and I'd hate to see this thread go, if only because I want to come back and take notes - on both sides of the argument - when I get the time.

I wanted it deleted mostly out of mercy.

As much as the fleshly(human) part of me would want to see someone make an **** of themselves, the Holy Spirit would NOT be happy if I helped them do it or had any hint of a role in it.

I don't like being right in arguments at times. Sometimes when you're right you lose (loss of face/harmony on both sides, not just your opponent).

I don't like having the last word in arguments either. So I'll be quiet and let someone else have it.

I'd make a terrible lawyer.

Texaggie7nine said:

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So this wasn't entirely true, was it?

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Not entirely, but on one of the biggest sticking points, I'd say it is.
You seem to think Hell is more of an alternate place to go than heaven, and if you aren't a fan of God, you would enjoy it more than heaven.

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Care to elaborate on how Quantum Mechanics falls outside the boundaries of what's true or not?

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Quantum Mechanics tells us that at the microscopic level, things can be both true and untrue at the same time. You can have particles that jump in and out of existence or are both in an exact spot and not at the same time. Things literally can exist as probabilities and have properties about them that are both true and untrue.

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Is there anything outside of what is wise, prudent, and what is considered foolish?

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Not sure I follow. Is it wise or prudent to color a picture of a horse? Is it foolish?

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Perhaps a better, more precise way to put it is, in regards to freedom, is there anything outside of good(righteousness) and what is evil?