garc said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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dermdoc said:

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You might want to ask that question of the families of the Las Vegas victims.

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Even then, we are talking about eternal, agonizing torment. Torment literally without end. No matter what happens on Earth, it's temporal. It ends. There is a finality. The idea that any action in a temporal reality is worth unending agonizing punishment is hard to imagine. To say that nonviolent, decent people who did not harm their fellow man deserve such punishment because they didn't believe in God or Jesus means you have to toss out any idea of a just God in favor of an emotional creature with raw power.

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That's not logical. You are talking in terms of time. Time is simply a concept created by man based on change of state that is constant and predictable. From whose perspective are the acts committed on earth "temporary"? What does temporary even mean?

So if you were god, how would you punish a person like Hitler, who most people, liberals and conservatives alike, agree was the most evil person of the last century. He had 6 million innocent Jews killed. He stole their wealth. He broke up families. He kept them in slums in atrocious living conditions until they were gassed. The war he started led to millions more dying and suffering. Would you sum up the suffering by each person and make him suffer for that long, in terms of your time? What about the deaths? What about the pain of loved ones? What about the aggregate pain suffered by the world as a whole? How do you account for all that?

The idea of "eternal" punishment, which is simply existing in an unchanging, unpleasant state, is logical. If the person is in a tormented state, and then changes to a state where they no longer have consciousness, it's as if the punishment never occurred from that person's perspective. If you were to go back to the same state you were in before you existed, from your perspective, nothing happened to you, good or bad. The only reason we know that evil occurred in the past is because we have memories and a way to preserve the acts for future humans to interpret.

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Time is not "simply a concept invented by man." Our perception of time and our relationship to it is constructed in certain ways, but our reality occurs within spacetime. Temporality is in the very fabric of the physical universe. What you're talking about is not logical, it's emotional. You see it as unjust if an evil person is destroyed rather than serving unending, eternal torture. Why? Because then they wouldn't know they were bad? That's not logical. That's vindictive.

Let's say your version of the afterlife is correct. And let's assume the Holocaust victims are in Heaven despite the vast majority being non-Christians or homosexual and the like - you know, things that arguably would lead them to being sent to Hell according to certain strands of Christian theology.

Hitler dies. Assuming he didn't turn his heart over to Jesus at the last moment after killing millions and earning his get-out-of-jail-free card, he goes to Hell. Now, what does torturing him for all time accomplish? The victims are still dead. They are in Heaven. Their wounds have been healed and they are with God. Torturing Hitler doesn't help them. Torturing Hitler doesn't help the living. No one can see it. No one knows what's being done. It might bring a sense of schadenfreude to folks who imagine his torments, but it's just imagination. The torture in Hell doesn't change what happened in the past. It doesn't change the reality of the Holocaust. The torture is only for Hitler. Now, some punishment of him makes perfect sense. Let's say a million years per life lost. That's A LOT of torture for a guy like Hitler. But it's not eternal. It's not unending. In the end, the only folks who know what happened to Hitler are Hitler, God, and maybe Gary, the demon with the molten lava pinchers, and Diane, the demon of HR. So the destruction of Hitler wouldn't erase his crimes or the punishment that occurred. It wouldn't change anything. It would just mark moving forward and not giving attention to a terrible person. That's logical.

Dr. Watson said:

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garc said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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dermdoc said:

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You might want to ask that question of the families of the Las Vegas victims.

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Even then, we are talking about eternal, agonizing torment. Torment literally without end. No matter what happens on Earth, it's temporal. It ends. There is a finality. The idea that any action in a temporal reality is worth unending agonizing punishment is hard to imagine. To say that nonviolent, decent people who did not harm their fellow man deserve such punishment because they didn't believe in God or Jesus means you have to toss out any idea of a just God in favor of an emotional creature with raw power.

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That's not logical. You are talking in terms of time. Time is simply a concept created by man based on change of state that is constant and predictable. From whose perspective are the acts committed on earth "temporary"? What does temporary even mean?

So if you were god, how would you punish a person like Hitler, who most people, liberals and conservatives alike, agree was the most evil person of the last century. He had 6 million innocent Jews killed. He stole their wealth. He broke up families. He kept them in slums in atrocious living conditions until they were gassed. The war he started led to millions more dying and suffering. Would you sum up the suffering by each person and make him suffer for that long, in terms of your time? What about the deaths? What about the pain of loved ones? What about the aggregate pain suffered by the world as a whole? How do you account for all that?

The idea of "eternal" punishment, which is simply existing in an unchanging, unpleasant state, is logical. If the person is in a tormented state, and then changes to a state where they no longer have consciousness, it's as if the punishment never occurred from that person's perspective. If you were to go back to the same state you were in before you existed, from your perspective, nothing happened to you, good or bad. The only reason we know that evil occurred in the past is because we have memories and a way to preserve the acts for future humans to interpret.

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Time is not "simply a concept invented by man." Our perception of time and our relationship to it is constructed in certain ways, but our reality occurs within spacetime. Temporality is in the very fabric of the physical universe. What you're talking about is not logical, it's emotional. You see it as unjust if an evil person is destroyed rather than serving unending, eternal torture. Why? Because then they wouldn't know they were bad? That's not logical. That's vindictive.

Let's say your version of the afterlife is correct. And let's assume the Holocaust victims are in Heaven despite the vast majority being non-Christians or homosexual and the like - you know, things that arguably would lead them to being sent to Hell according to certain strands of Christian theology.

Hitler dies. Assuming he didn't turn his heart over to Jesus at the last moment after killing millions and earning his get-out-of-jail-free card, he goes to Hell. Now, what does torturing him for all time accomplish? The victims are still dead. They are in Heaven. Their wounds have been healed and they are with God. Torturing Hitler doesn't help them. Torturing Hitler doesn't help the living. No one can see it. No one knows what's being done. It might bring a sense of schadenfreude to folks who imagine his torments, but it's just imagination. The torture in Hell doesn't change what happened in the past. It doesn't change the reality of the Holocaust. The torture is only for Hitler. Now, some punishment of him makes perfect sense. Let's say a million years per life lost. That's A LOT of torture for a guy like Hitler. But it's not eternal. It's not unending. In the end, the only folks who know what happened to Hitler are Hitler, God, and maybe Gary, the demon with the molten lava pinchers, and Diane, the demon of HR. So the destruction of Hitler wouldn't erase his crimes or the punishment that occurred. It wouldn't change anything. It would just mark moving forward and not giving attention to a terrible person. That's logical.

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It is absolute a man made concept. The only reason "time" exists is because there are state changes that occur on a constant frequency. If we didn't "age", die, sleep, the sun did not revolve around the earth, etc... there would be no "time" as we define it. From your perspective, there is "temporary". But your perspective is irrelevant. In a "world" with a creator that simply "is", there is no concept of time.

You are completely wrong on your second point I bolded. If Hitler ever ceased to exist, he no longer has a perspective. Nothing good or bad happened to him from his perspective. If he does continue to exist "forever" after his punishment, then he has been rewarded with eternity in paradise, which is illogical.

The third bolded text sounds like nihilism and applies to a person who is punished on this earth by other humans. That also does not change what occurred. It does not erase crimes either. Let;s do away with all punishment since what has been done cannot be undone and it does not change anything.

There is nothing emotional about my responses. It's simply logic.

Marco Esquandolas said:

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This thread was supposed to be about a guy who sold dirty magazines. Wtf happened?

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Crag

On what basis are you asserting that matter needs a spatial container to exist but not a temporal container, pray tell oh wise one. On what basis are you ignoring the fact that space and time are inextricably wound into one single structure?

It never ceases to amaze me the tangents R&P Board discussions can spin off. I would never have imagined a thread about the death of Hugh Hefner would lead to a discussion about the nature of time.

Denying evolution and the age of the earth is fun. But denying time exists is a whole new level of awesome.

I was getting caught up on this thread about the concept of time, and was struck by this:

Quote:

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The only reason "time" exists is because there are state changes that occur on a constant frequency. If we didn't "age", die, sleep, the sun did not revolve around the earth,

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Another geocentrist?

kurt vonnegut said:

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garc said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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And it is llogical for an all powerful being who needs nothing to create a race of beings to do as he pleases upon threat of eternal torture?

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Eternal punishment is logical.

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First, I think perhaps it depends on your initial assumptions. If you assume that an all powerful God exists who enjoys dishing out eternal torture, then it's perfectly logical, I suppose. If this God of yours has a shred of love, mercy, or empathy, then I don't see how it's logical.

Secondly, I think it's illogical for any of us to toss around the word eternity as though we are able to understand or comprehend the word beyond its utility in mathematics.

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When people go to hell, God isn't sending them there out of vindictiveness or petty revenge for not following his rules. After someone dies, they spend eternity either with God, or without him. These states are referred to as Heaven and Hell.

It's not a reward or a punishment, it's what that person chose. People who go to Hell did not want to be with God. It ends up being punishing and painful and agonizing because when they get there, they realize that they rejected God, and are remorseful because now they have nothing and will do nothing and be alone forever.

Not that I ever have asked, but I would guess if you asked a prisoner who had spent a decent amount of time in solitary confinement, they would say it was one of the worst things they've ever experienced. And I imagine Hell is similar.

The merciful and loving part of God is that he wants all of us to spend eternity with him because he loves us, but he wants us to choose him. Even if we spend our whole lives rejecting him, if at the last minute, we choose him, that's good enough. Which is crazy. But that is mercy and love and forgiveness. Which is what God is.