hugh hefner

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Aggrad08
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It can only said to be a choice wholly within the control of the person there if it's made fully informed (god does not reveal himself undeniably and even the believers here can't agree much on what hell is), and if they can change their mind. Otherwise god absolutely has a big role in their being there. Further, to the earlier points it still serves no purpose, and offers no good to anyone.

Good Bull Jones 17
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Aggrad08 said:

It can only said to be a choice wholly within the control of the person there if it's made fully informed (god does not reveal himself undeniably and even the believers here can't agree much on what hell is), and if they can change their mind. Otherwise god absolutely has a big role in their being there. Further, to the earlier points it still serves no purpose, and offers no good to anyone.



How could we agree on what hell is if none of us have been there or seen it? We can either read out of the Bible and try to figure out what it is from there, or take the opinion of someone who has studied the Bible and many other historical and religious works far more than we ever will. Either way will give us an impefect understanding, but is the best we can do and still gets the main point across.

2. It's not about serving a purpose. It's not about God getting justice or equity for what you have done. It's where you go when you have said in your heart, directly or indirectly, I don't want to be with God. And you go there because it is where God isn't.

3. If a person could be 100% entirely informed with no room for doubt and no way of getting around it, then there would be no choice. So if God had revealed himself to us such that there was no way we could deny it, there would be no choice. And hole point is that God wants you to love Him because he loves you. And you can only love someone if there is a choice to be made about loving them. If he just smacked you in the face with his presence, then you acknowledging his existence still isn't even necessarily love, and defeats the whole point of creation.
schmendeler
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"If a person could be 100% entirely informed with no room for doubt and no way of getting around it, then there would be no choice."

Why?
Good Bull Jones 17
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Can you choose to believe in Neptune? Can you choose to believe in gravity? There's no choice involved. Their existence is plainly obvious. The question applies to any other scientific phenomenon that is proven with observation and a logical thought process.

Yes, at a certain point you can "choose to not believe" in those things, but you can only make that counter as a philosophical exercise. Meaning no rational person doesn't acknowledge the existence of those things.

Because God cannot be seen, felt, or heard in the ordinary sense of the word, and doesn't just hang out on Jupiter to be seen with a telescope, accepting his existence requires a bit of faith. It requires a choice to believe.

That being said, I think there is a great deal of evidence for God's existence that seems irrefutable to me. I don't know how anything else could explain certain phenomenon.
schmendeler
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I can't choose not to believe gravity exists. But I can also decide whether or not I want to jump off a cliff even knowing for a certainty what happens when my body traveling at terminal velocity slams into concrete.
Good Bull Jones 17
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Can you explain the connection better? I don't see the point.
schmendeler
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Knowing something exists doesn't preclude me from deciding to choose it or not. Just like the angels in heaven that knew who god was in full but still decided to follow Lucifer.
Good Bull Jones 17
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AstroAg17 said:

Is the choice to believe in God really the choice that defines salvation? I was under the impression that belief in God was insufficient; that one has to accept Jesus' sacrifice in addition to that. You could believe in God and still decline his offer.


You are correct, but I figured it's best to start at step one and think about if God even exists or not. One can't accept Jesus Christ as their savior without believing in God first.
Aggrad08
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Quote:

How could we agree on what hell is if none of us have been there or seen it?
No one has been there or seen it for the majority of what's claimed true in the bible. But there is far more disagreement about hell than many other subjects. The fact is, what is in the bible is sparse and inconsistent. The OT prophets never mention the place, and neither does paul.

Quote:


2. It's not about serving a purpose. It's not about God getting justice or equity for what you have done. It's where you go when you have said in your heart, directly or indirectly, I don't want to be with God. And you go there because it is where God isn't.
This is entirely up to god. Is god on earth? Why must there be a place wholly void of him? God seems to do well enough with things as is, why change the status quo from earth for those you say don't want his presence?

And the dichotomy is false, as many people want to be with god as they understand him to exist but are not Christians, and other's don't choose to be away from god so much as they see him as non-existent. "I don't want to be with god" is perhaps the least common choice amongst those slated for hell.


Quote:

3. If a person could be 100% entirely informed with no room for doubt and no way of getting around it, then there would be no choice. So if God had revealed himself to us such that there was no way we could deny it, there would be no choice.
This is demonstrably false and inconsistent with the bible. We make choices to disregard undoubtedly real things all the time. Further, the very theology of satan and demons (Christian not jewish) requires them to have full knowledge and make this exact choice.


Quote:

And hole point is that God wants you to love Him because he loves you. And you can only love someone if there is a choice to be made about loving them. If he just smacked you in the face with his presence, then you acknowledging his existence still isn't even necessarily love, and defeats the whole point of creation.
Is the love between you and your family and less real or any more pointless because you know they exist? I find this line of reasoning completely peculiar. It's not unique to you, I've heard this argument before but I don't see any way in which it sticks.
dds08
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Good Bull Jones 17 said:

AstroAg17 said:

Is the choice to believe in God really the choice that defines salvation? I was under the impression that belief in God was insufficient; that one has to accept Jesus' sacrifice in addition to that. You could believe in God and still decline his offer.


You are correct, but I figured it's best to start at step one and think about if God even exists or not. One can't accept Jesus Christ as their savior without believing in God first.
Good Bull.

My two cents:

I want to make the comment that I believe some will NOT make it to heaven because they choose, indeed, not to believe in Jesus dying on the cross for their sins.

Some like you said, will NOT make it to heaven because they chose to be apart from Him for eternity and reject Him for eternity.

Some will NOT make it to heaven because they are guilty of the same thing Satan was guilty of, pride. They never admit to sin and they believe the lie that they are perfect.

Some will NOT make it because their love of money holds them back from a relationship with the Lord.

Some will NOT make it because, they have no faith.

Some will allow all of evil to overtake them and miss out. It's sad, but true. Choice. and Freedom.

On this side of life, they have the opportunity or a chance to receive salvation.

On the other side, they will spend all eternity wishing they had accepted a free gift.
cr
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Good Bull Jones 17 said:

AstroAg17 said:

Is the choice to believe in God really the choice that defines salvation? I was under the impression that belief in God was insufficient; that one has to accept Jesus' sacrifice in addition to that. You could believe in God and still decline his offer.


You are correct, but I figured it's best to start at step one and think about if God even exists or not. One can't accept Jesus Christ as their savior without believing in God first.

Not sure I agree with that.

I accepted Christ but I would not say I believed in God beforehand. I was convicted by the Holy Spirit when I heard the gospel; I then walked down to the alter and accepted salvation. So my belief in God and acceptance were simultaneous, I would say. I really had no firm belief one way or the other before that experience; I was agnostic if you will.
jja79
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Whats this about Hugh Hefner?
NoHo Hank
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dds08 said:

Good Bull Jones 17 said:

AstroAg17 said:

Is the choice to believe in God really the choice that defines salvation? I was under the impression that belief in God was insufficient; that one has to accept Jesus' sacrifice in addition to that. You could believe in God and still decline his offer.


You are correct, but I figured it's best to start at step one and think about if God even exists or not. One can't accept Jesus Christ as their savior without believing in God first.
Good Bull.

My two cents:

I want to make the comment that I believe some will NOT make it to heaven because they choose, indeed, not to believe in Jesus dying on the cross for their sins.

Some like you said, will NOT make it to heaven because they chose to be apart from Him for eternity and reject Him for eternity.

Some will NOT make it to heaven because they are guilty of the same thing Satan was guilty of, pride. They never admit to sin and they believe the lie that they are perfect.

Some will NOT make it because their love of money holds them back from a relationship with the Lord.

Some will NOT make it because, they have no faith.

Some will allow all of evil to overtake them and miss out. It's sad, but true. Choice. and Freedom.

On this side of life, they have the opportunity or a chance to receive salvation.

On the other side, they will spend all eternity wishing they had accepted a free gift.

This is breathtakingly stupid.
Good Bull Jones 17
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Aggrad08 said:


Quote:

How could we agree on what hell is if none of us have been there or seen it?
No one has been there or seen it for the majority of what's claimed true in the bible. But there is far more disagreement about hell than many other subjects. The fact is, what is in the bible is sparse and inconsistent. The OT prophets never mention the place, and neither does paul.

I don't have a good response to this. I'm going to have to look into it more, because my Biblical knowledge isn't as good as it should be. And this point is very intriguing.

Quote:


2. It's not about serving a purpose. It's not about God getting justice or equity for what you have done. It's where you go when you have said in your heart, directly or indirectly, I don't want to be with God. And you go there because it is where God isn't.
This is entirely up to god. Is god on earth? Why must there be a place wholly void of him? God seems to do well enough with things as is, why change the status quo from earth for those you say don't want his presence?

The reason there is a place without God's existence is because he doesn't want to force himself upon us. Lucifer was allowed to leave because God gave him free will, just like He did the rest of us. And God is present all around us on Earth, so that we can have the opportunity to encounter Him.

And the dichotomy is false, as many people want to be with god as they understand him to exist but are not Christians, and other's don't choose to be away from god so much as they see him as non-existent. "I don't want to be with god" is perhaps the least common choice amongst those slated for hell.

True, people don't say that directly. But they can say it with their hearts in with their actions. And I think those that seek truth and seek Him to the best of their understanding don't go to Hell. I don't think God holds it against people when they they don't get the chance to understand and know Him in the same way that we do.


Quote:

3. If a person could be 100% entirely informed with no room for doubt and no way of getting around it, then there would be no choice. So if God had revealed himself to us such that there was no way we could deny it, there would be no choice.
This is demonstrably false and inconsistent with the bible. We make choices to disregard undoubtedly real things all the time. Further, the very theology of satan and demons (Christian not jewish) requires them to have full knowledge and make this exact choice.

Just like humans have various levels of information when it comes to making their decision about how close they want to be with God, is it not logical that we would have a different level of understanding than an angel? Or demons and Satan himself? And I see where your coming from about disregarding real things, but to disregard God if we had a perfect knowledge of Him would be just exceedingly illogical to me.

Quote:

And hole point is that God wants you to love Him because he loves you. And you can only love someone if there is a choice to be made about loving them. If he just smacked you in the face with his presence, then you acknowledging his existence still isn't even necessarily love, and defeats the whole point of creation.
Is the love between you and your family and less real or any more pointless because you know they exist? I find this line of reasoning completely peculiar. It's not unique to you, I've heard this argument before but I don't see any way in which it sticks.



This is a good point, but I think where it misses the mark is that comparing your love for your family and comparing God's love for you isn't a perfect comparison. I think it's only logical that any emotion and relation with an all-powerful omnipotent being would be more intense than anything we have experienced here on Earth. But to more directly answer your question, I'm not totally sure. I'll have to think on that one more.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I've had a hell of a week and this was a long post.
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rosshoss00
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Sweet, so I can keep living an awesome sinning life, hopefully end up on a death bed for a couple hours, ask for forgiveness and then boom!!!! I'm in heaven. Being a Christian is awesome.
 
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