Hey...can you email me at xxxx

It looks like my son and I may be able to head that way this week.

Nm

Wife and I and daughters went to St. George on Sunday. My 4th Orthodox service so I've figured out the pattern and can follow along now.

It's just as you've said, I've spent my Protestant life measuring Sunday by what I've personally got our or didn't get out of the service: Sermon and music.

I've come to see the Orthodox service as what we should be giving instead of getting. Worship, prayer, etc.

It is not entertaining. At all, at this point for me. But its Ancient and good. Refreshing really, that no matter how our culture or political landscape shifts, the liturgy will be unchanged as it has been for 1600 years. That's appealing to me.

I have a feeling that the first churches were much like Orthodox services.

I tend to agree. The earliest church we have has icons, a raised area, etc.

Some of the songs we still sing today were attested to be "ancient" in the 300s (like the Phos Hilaron / O gladsome light").

St Hippolytus of Rome (d 235 AD) left us a text that in many services has word for word matches with our services today.

Even our coffee hour is really an extension or adaptation of the ancient agape feast. Communion would begin with the breaking of the bread, have a meal, and end with the wine. (Some were getting drunk in the meal, which is what St Paul admonishes in 1 Cor 11:21). Now we celebrate communion and eat our feast together after.

Jaydoug said:

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Wife and I and daughters went to St. George on Sunday. My 4th Orthodox service so I've figured out the pattern and can follow along now.

It's just as you've said, I've spent my Protestant life measuring Sunday by what I've personally got our or didn't get out of the service: Sermon and music.

I've come to see the Orthodox service as what we should be giving instead of getting. Worship, prayer, etc.

It is not entertaining. At all, at this point for me. But its Ancient and good. Refreshing really, that no matter how our culture or political landscape shifts, the liturgy will be unchanged as it has been for 1600 years. That's appealing to me.

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It's interesting, I went to an Orthodox Church for two weeks in a row and then back to the Lutheran Church last week.

When the "band" started with their opening song, my first though was "wow I forgot how out of place this felt."

At this point, I'm somewhere "east of the LCMS" and "west of the Orthodox" and I don't know what that makes me right now.

AgLiving06 said:

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Jaydoug said:

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Wife and I and daughters went to St. George on Sunday. My 4th Orthodox service so I've figured out the pattern and can follow along now.

It's just as you've said, I've spent my Protestant life measuring Sunday by what I've personally got our or didn't get out of the service: Sermon and music.

I've come to see the Orthodox service as what we should be giving instead of getting. Worship, prayer, etc.

It is not entertaining. At all, at this point for me. But its Ancient and good. Refreshing really, that no matter how our culture or political landscape shifts, the liturgy will be unchanged as it has been for 1600 years. That's appealing to me.

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It's interesting, I went to an Orthodox Church for two weeks in a row and then back to the Lutheran Church last week.

When the "band" started with their opening song, my first though was "wow I forgot how out of place this felt."

At this point, I'm somewhere "east of the LCMS" and "west of the Orthodox" and I don't know what that makes me right now.

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Roman Catholic?

I don't know where you live/go to church. Try an LCMS church from this lutheranliturgy.org site

(If you tell me where you live, I can probably direct you)

If your area doesn't have an LCMS church that is confessional/traditional, you might check out the WELS churches or AALC. Also, a good Eastern oriented Lutheran pastor is Jordan Cooper. His books and podcasts are pretty great. Christification was really amazing. If you live in Houston, you should check out my church (and I'd lend you the book!)

swimmerbabe11 said:

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I don't know where you live/go to church. Try an LCMS church from this lutheranliturgy.org site

(If you tell me where you live, I can probably direct you)

If your area doesn't have an LCMS church that is confessional/traditional, you might check out the WELS churches or AALC. Also, a good Eastern oriented Lutheran pastor is Jordan Cooper. His books and podcasts are pretty great. Christification was really amazing. If you live in Houston, you should check out my church (and I'd lend you the book!)

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MLC is on my list of Church's to attend in the next couple of weeks. Probably would attend the 11 AM (I do wish this was earlier).

I've listened to Jordan Cooper in the past. His books interest me, but they are relatively short for what he charges.

I figured I'd give a small update.

At this point, I've started catechism classes at St. George. I've been attending St. Joseph (I didn't see K2 ) but I've liked it.

It has been a bit of a struggle for me (and my family) b/c we really like the Pastor at the Church we attend.

At the end of the day, for me at least, I couldn't rationalize why Lutheranism (or Protestantism in general) makes sense without ignoring the history of the church (beyond the injustices of the Catholic Church).

My wife isn't necessarily there, but I think she's come around a bit.

Maybe you did and you didn't know it.

True..my son doesn't give me much opportunity to look around as he likes to try and crawl away.

Try this... buddy of mine forwarded it to me

Just started reading it today

I too am very curious.

https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/assets/uploads/books/18403/Kallistos%20Ware%20The%20Orthodox%20Way.pdf

Emoji was a mistake

Fat fingers

Captain Pablo said:

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Try this... buddy of mine forwarded it to me

Just started reading it today

I too am very curious.

https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/assets/uploads/books/18403/Kallistos%20Ware%20The%20Orthodox%20Way.pdf

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Have you read "The Orthodox Church" by Kallistos Ware as well?

That gives you the fundamentals of the Orthodox Church where as this delves more into the Mysteries of the Church.

AgLiving06 said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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Try this... buddy of mine forwarded it to me

Just started reading it today

I too am very curious.

https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/assets/uploads/books/18403/Kallistos%20Ware%20The%20Orthodox%20Way.pdf

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Have you read "The Orthodox Church" by Kallistos Ware as well?

That gives you the fundamentals of the Orthodox Church where as this delves more into the Mysteries of the Church.

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No, I have not. My knowledge of the Orthodox Church is many conversations with one of the best friends I've ever had. He has been Orthodox for about three or four years now.

This is not something new for me. About five or six years ago, I came to this board seeking knowledge. I had pretty much given up in religion altogether, and sought knowledge from this board. Was looking for something that adhered to the original principles of Christianity, and that refused to succumb to cultural pull

A couple of guys recommended I look into eastern orthodoxy. I took slight interest, but never followed up on it. I do not live in a community that is anywhere near an Orthodox Church

Also, I knew a couple of people that had converted to Eastern orthodoxy, and within a year or two, they were sporting long goatees and wearing robes and neck jewelry, and all of that. I thought it was weird, and was, frankly, turned Off by it

And "Mysteries of the church" (your words) is the type of "secretive" language that at the time was disconcerting to me

Never explored it. Probably should have

Talking to my buddy has renewed interest and I am starting from scratch with "overview" reading material

I have been without religion for probably a quarter century. It's not because I want to be. I just never found what I'm looking for in Roman Catholicism, and certainly not mainstream Protestantism, which in my opinion, has gone completely off the rails

Will order the book you recommend

Thank you for the suggestion

Kinda odd about the robes and goatees thing. I mean... I wear a cross, but I have since I was a kid. And I've sported facial hair since before I was Orthodox. And I've worn robes since - haha - just kidding.

The only people who should wear robes in Orthodoxy on the regular are clergy. Readers and sub-deacons wear robes during services, but not out and about. And a person usually isn't ordained until several years after they convert (typically seven - see 1 Tim 3:6).

So, yeah - that is weird, but I'm not sure that it has much to do with Orthodoxy.

///

I converted from Protestantism-turned-agnosticism. I completely understand your reaction to words like "mystery" and "theosis" or "divinization". It's definitely different.

But, Christianity is a mystery religion. Mysterion in Greek appears 28 times in the NT. It doesn't mean unknowable, it means unknowable except by revelation from God. Sometimes in the NIV it is translated as "secrets" (a needless garble, in my opinion).

Christ tells the disciples "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted." Later these mysteries were opened to all believers through baptism and the Holy Spirit, through the Apostles (see John 17).

St Paul says his job is to proclaim the mystery of Christ (Col 4:3) which has been kept in secret since ages past (Romans 16:25, Col 1:26) -- a mystery he has become the steward of (1 Cor 4:1).

1 Timothy 3: says that there is mystery of our faith which we must hold to -- and what is it? "By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory."

So they Mystery of the Orthodox church is very simple: it is "the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints" (Jude 1:3). And all other mysteries are parts of this mystery, just as all confessions in Christianity are supported by and linked to the great Mystery of the Incarnation of the Logos of God, Christ Jesus.

It's much less cultish when you understand the meaning and use of the word in its proper context.

k2aggie,

Mind if I ask, what's the Orthodox view on hell? I lean toward annihilationism, and am curious about the Orthodox view. Eternal Conscious Torment? Something else?

I don't know the orthodox view, per se. There are several interpretations, I think... I think hell and heaven are the same place, eternity with God in God's presence. He is Love, but His Love is fire.

This is about where I end up:
http://www.clarion-journal.com/files/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all-1.pdf

I also have a special place for what St Maximos wrote. His Ambigua is a tough read but worth it.

Some articles on it:
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/02/16/st-maximus-the-confessor-hell-and-the-final-consummation/

http://orthochristian.com/96486.html

Thanks. I'll take a look.

So, preface this post with a disclaimer that this is only meant to broaden the mind of those with a western mindset; we tend to worship rationality a bit, and that impacts our understandings of grace, salvation and the nature of God.

An interesting study for protestants or Roman Catholics is to try to grasp the teachings about the nature of reality posed in Hinduism and Buddhism. The basic teaching that the world is an illusion, and that we are all One Thing will likely blow your mind. It is very foreign to the western way of thought.

Now, I am not saying that Orthodox believes any amount of what Eastern philosophy says about God. However some understanding of the depth of acceptance about the concept of mystery in general in Hindism/Bhuddism helped me to understand some of the Orthodox teachings about salvation, sin, death and God. I feel that it has made me a better person, because there are some aspects of God that absolutely ARE a mystery. Under the Western way of thinking, mystery is just a question that we don't know the answer too yet, as opposed to a question that has no rational answer. When you begin to accept mystery a bit when it comes to the nature of God, it opens a door to deeper relationship.

So, thanks to K2 for his contributions on this forum. I definitely feel like I have a closer relationship with God due to my study of eastern philosophy and Orthodoxy over the last 2 years or so, and K2s discussions about the Orthodox position on the nature of sin and salvation kicked that off.

I recommend a light study to everyone on the basic teachings of Hinduism and Buddhism (although I think both approaches are deeply and irrevocably flawed) in order to understand a non Western mindset, and some serious study on the nature of God, salvation and sin as taught by the Orthodox church.

Thanks man. I'm glad you found it useful.

I think the biggest or key difference as you said between Eastern faiths (Buddhism/Hinduism) and orthodoxy is in how the individual relates to the eternal. If the self is an illusion and we sink into this cosmic oneness we all "become God" by losing ourselves. On the other hand, the bedrock of Christianity is the idea that the only -real- thing we know about God is that He has persons, the Trinity. So our personhood is because of His, and when we're saved our personhood is realized in perfection, not lost.

I think the western idea of personhood, the self, and personality were heavily influenced by Trimitarian identity because of this.

Something I got from the east is the idea that knowledge can be experiential in a way that seems to be beyond the 5 senses. Revelation can be non-verbal, non-thinking, non-rational, and occur in such a way that words cannot describe it. It helps to break away from the scientism world view that you don't even realize you've internalized.

k2aggie07 said:

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Thanks man. I'm glad you found it useful.

I think the biggest or key difference as you said between Eastern faiths (Buddhism/Hinduism) and orthodoxy is in how the individual relates to the eternal. If the self is an illusion and we sink into this cosmic oneness we all "become God" by losing ourselves. On the other hand, the bedrock of Christianity is the idea that the only -real- thing we know about God is that He has persons, the Trinity. So our personhood is because of His, and when we're saved our personhood is realized in perfection, not lost.

I think the western idea of personhood, the self, and personality were heavily influenced by Trimitarian identity because of this.

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Great take. We believe in a personal God, and individual personhood. I think the other facet of Eastern philosophy, though, the nature of knowledge and reality, is worth trying to comprehend. There really is something worthwhile to understand what the kid meant about there is no spoon.

Quote:

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An interesting study for protestants or Roman Catholics is to try to grasp the teachings about the nature of reality posed in Hinduism and Buddhism. The basic teaching that the world is an illusion, and that we are all One Thing will likely blow your mind. It is very foreign to the western way of thought.

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion)

Thumbs up for K2. Great ambassador of our faith.

His knowledge has caused me to look at my own study habits (mostly natural and historical studies) and devote much more time to theology and the Church Fathers.

Aggiefan#1 said:

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Thumbs up for K2. Great ambassador of our faith.

His knowledge has caused me to look at my own study habits (mostly natural and historical studies) and devote much more time to theology and the Church Fathers.

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Indeed he is. Because of him, I've grown very intrigued with the Orthodox. It becomes even more attractive as this board hasn't been much more than a "Catholic vs Protestant" pissing match the past few weeks.

As Orthodox Christians we are instructed to exhibit a Christlike humility. "Pissing matches" are not an option.

Besides we don't have much to get into arguments about. Protestants and Roman Catholics are much more similar in nature than either are to us.

We have just been doing our thing for almost two millennia and don't plan on changing it.

Aggiefan#1 said:

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As Orthodox Christians we are instructed to exhibit a Christlike humility. "Pissing matches" are not an option.

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Aggiefan#1 said:

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As Orthodox Christians we are instructed to exhibit a Christlike humility. "Pissing matches" are not an option.

Besides we don't have much to get into arguments about. Protestants and Roman Catholics are much more similar in nature than either are to us.

We have just been doing our thing for almost two millennia and don't plan on changing it.

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You are a good dude and great poster but this entire post seems like a giant humblebrag. Humility is not the vibe I get from it.

Again I like your posts and am inclined to like Orthodoxy but this post comes across as the opposite of humility. I could be reading it in the wrong way.

Aggiefan#1 said:

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Besides we don't have much to get into arguments about. Protestants and Roman Catholics are much more similar in nature than either are to us.

.

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I understand the drastically different viewpoints between East and West highlighted by Bishop Ware and many others on salvation. Reading some Catholic responses I think a lot of these differences are overblown.

IMO the Roman Catholic approach to sacraments, the authority of the Church, apostolic succession, veneration, intercessory prayer, Patristics, monastic life, etc is MUCH closer to the Orthodox Church than it would be to some Baptist or Evangelical Church.