Orthodox (k2aggie)

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Serotonin
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AG
RetiredAg, you asked about my path to Orthodox Christianity, figured I'd post it here.

I followed a typical path of reading a few books, starting to attend a few services, meeting with the Priest, taking catechism classes, joining. I don't think that part is all that interesting, so I'll focus on the "why". Apologies in advance, this is more of a rambling meditation than a tight argument. I'll leave the latter to k2.

1. I considered myself a Christian and affirmed that I would die for Christ and give up my life for Him. Yet this presented uncomfortable contradictions in my life. If I was honest with myself, the most important things in my life were material -- house, job, retirement/savings, finding a good school for kids. I'd get drunk, look at things I shouldn't on the internet, make stupid posts on texags, get angry, get jealous, argue, etc.

2. I think many Christians are in this same boat and the uncharitable view would be that we're not really Christian, or haven't been transformed by Christ. But I think the more accurate view is that we are constantly distracted and tempted by the evil one working through a materialist/consumerist culture that is hostile to the true Christian life. A minimalist approach to Christianity is simply overwhelmed by the ideas, sights and sounds that flood us every day, hour and minute. And we end up acting just like everyone else.

3. Orthodoxy was interesting to me because it is truly a way of life. The prayer, fasting, scripture reading, spiritual direction from a spiritual father or mother, the varied services throughout the liturgical year, the longer services, monasticism, etc. It is a maximalist approach. Christ in every aspect of our lives. I think this is vital.

4. CS Lewis has a nice quote here: "'If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth". What I was looking for was comfort. I wanted to check the box of faith and get my ticket to heaven and then do the bare minimum. I was not aiming for Christ, who is the Truth, the Way, and the Life; instead I was aiming for eternal comfort.

5. The Orthodox Church is a hospital designed to bring us to Truth; to heal us and purify our souls. We have to move away from our worldly passions/addictions and move towards God. I was filled with passions but said I wanted to go to heaven. How was this possible? Because I'd remade heaven in my image. Just an eternal, relaxing, fun time! That's the only way heaven sounded good to me. Instead, I needed to be remade in God's image.

6. The maximalist approach of Orthodoxy definitely clashes with surrounding secular culture which has probably been going on in one form or another for 20 centuries. The Church is not going to change for the sake of accommodating the latest social or cultural trend in society. It will stay serious, difficult, demanding and deep when society is trivial, easy, comfortable and shallow. It does not need to change to please me, I need to change to please God. I am challenged by the Church in a deep way to become holy.

7. The maximalist approach includes a physical side which has somewhat disappeared from Western Christianity. There has been a continual trend in the West of dropping various physical aspect of the Faith as non-essential. Fasting, standing for prayer and gospel readings, utilizing icons and prayer ropes in prayer, prostrations, bodily burial, etc. are "physical" aspects that have become non-essential in the West (although I think this result is logical/unavoidable with a minimalist approach). The writer William Dalrymple noted in his book 'From The Holy Mountain' that "In the sixth century, the Muslims appear to have derived their techniques of worship from existing Christian practice. Islam and the Eastern Christians have retained the original early Christian convention; it is the Western Christians who have broken with sacred tradition."

8. Monasticism. Monastics have saved the Church and have probably saved the world through their diligent prayer. Monastics help keep us in check and help give us the right frame of mind. They have died to the world and teach us that we can give up the treasures of the world willingly today and follow Christ or give up the treasures unwillingly tomorrow. St Feofil: "Leave the vanity of this world for its wells are useless, they cannot hold within themselves saving water. Yesterday, my eyes saw, my ears heard, my lips spoke, and my body moved. But the spirit of life has left it and what is now before you? And so remember, my friend, to live in fear for our earthly life is nothing but a daily death. Yesterday, we were not as we are today. Tomorrow we will not be as today. Each day, a part of our life vanishes and at the very time when we are growing, life is receding and diminishing. Your brother has died today and tomorrow you will die. The route is the same for all. All the earth is sown with the bones of the deceased like a field of wheat and the living cannot find a spot upon which to step without disturbing with their feet the remains of the deceased. Do not seek delights for sight and hearing, for tomorrow your eyes will close and your ears will stop hearing. Do not give will to your hands and feet. Tomorrow the hand of death will bind them and you yourself will be welded to your death-bed from which you will rise. Do not desire splendid clothing or grand houses, for tomorrow you will be clothed in a shroud and a coffin will be your house. Do not desire rewards and distinction, for they will be displayed only temporarily near your coffin, as if laughing at your vainglory. Do not tie yourself down to the earth or to anything earthly, for tomorrow the scythe of death will sever all such ties and against your will and desire, you will go to the distant country of another world where everything is different and will remind you of nothing of your earthly riches and treasures. Keep vigil and hurry to settle over there in good time in thought and heart so that at that hour when you are led to this region, you will not find yourself in a strange place, unfamiliar with the order there."

9. Humilty. It is in everything aspect of the Church, because pride is the greatest danger for believers. We see the Pharisees get prideful because of following the law. While they follow the law well, they've lost all humility and have become legalistic. On the way to doing what God commanded they lost the plot.

The danger is that we Christians do the same with faith. The Pharisee uses works as a path to pride, I can easily use faith as a path to pride; we Christians can become prideful towards other Christians and look down on those who have the wrong beliefs (in our view). This is a very bad approach. A much better approach is to stand or kneel and say, "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me a sinner" and stop judging others. Having a spiritual father and the Church to remind me and point me in that direction is absolutely essential. That is why I became Orthodox.
dermdoc
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AG
Gator03 said:

RetiredAg, you asked about my path to Orthodox Christianity, figured I'd post it here.

I followed a typical path of reading a few books, starting to attend a few services, meeting with the Priest, taking catechism classes, joining. I don't think that part is all that interesting, so I'll focus on the "why". Apologies in advance, this is more of a rambling meditation than a tight argument. I'll leave the latter to k2.

1. I considered myself a Christian and affirmed that I would die for Christ and give up my life for Him. Yet this presented uncomfortable contradictions in my life. If I was honest with myself, the most important things in my life were material -- house, job, retirement/savings, finding a good school for kids. I'd get drunk, look at things I shouldn't on the internet, make stupid posts on texags, get angry, get jealous, argue, etc.

2. I think many Christians are in this same boat and the uncharitable view would be that we're not really Christian, or haven't been transformed by Christ. But I think the more accurate view is that we are constantly distracted and tempted by the evil one working through a materialist/consumerist culture that is hostile to the true Christian life. A minimalist approach to Christianity is simply overwhelmed by the ideas, sights and sounds that flood us every day, hour and minute. And we end up acting just like everyone else.

3. Orthodoxy was interesting to me because it is truly a way of life. The prayer, fasting, scripture reading, spiritual direction from a spiritual father or mother, the varied services throughout the liturgical year, the longer services, monasticism, etc. It is a maximalist approach. Christ in every aspect of our lives. I think this is vital.

4. CS Lewis has a nice quote here: "'If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth". What I was looking for was comfort. I wanted to check the box of faith and get my ticket to heaven and then do the bare minimum. I was not aiming for Christ, who is the Truth, the Way, and the Life; instead I was aiming for eternal comfort.

5. The Orthodox Church is a hospital designed to bring us to Truth; to heal us and purify our souls. We have to move away from our worldly passions/addictions and move towards God. I was filled with passions but said I wanted to go to heaven. How was this possible? Because I'd remade heaven in my image. Just an eternal, relaxing, fun time! That's the only way heaven sounded good to me. Instead, I needed to be remade in God's image.

6. The maximalist approach of Orthodoxy definitely clashes with surrounding secular culture which has probably been going on in one form or another for 20 centuries. The Church is not going to change for the sake of accommodating the latest social or cultural trend in society. It will stay serious, difficult, demanding and deep when society is trivial, easy, comfortable and shallow. It does not need to change to please me, I need to change to please God. I am challenged by the Church in a deep way to become holy.

7. The maximalist approach includes a physical side which has somewhat disappeared from Western Christianity. There has been a continual trend in the West of dropping various physical aspect of the Faith as non-essential. Fasting, standing for prayer and gospel readings, utilizing icons and prayer ropes in prayer, prostrations, bodily burial, etc. are "physical" aspects that have become non-essential in the West (although I think this result is logical/unavoidable with a minimalist approach). The writer William Dalrymple noted in his book 'From The Holy Mountain' that "In the sixth century, the Muslims appear to have derived their techniques of worship from existing Christian practice. Islam and the Eastern Christians have retained the original early Christian convention; it is the Western Christians who have broken with sacred tradition."

8. Monasticism. Monastics have saved the Church and have probably saved the world through their diligent prayer. Monastics help keep us in check and help give us the right frame of mind. They have died to the world and teach us that we can give up the treasures of the world willingly today and follow Christ or give up the treasures unwillingly tomorrow. St Feofil: "Leave the vanity of this world for its wells are useless, they cannot hold within themselves saving water. Yesterday, my eyes saw, my ears heard, my lips spoke, and my body moved. But the spirit of life has left it and what is now before you? And so remember, my friend, to live in fear for our earthly life is nothing but a daily death. Yesterday, we were not as we are today. Tomorrow we will not be as today. Each day, a part of our life vanishes and at the very time when we are growing, life is receding and diminishing. Your brother has died today and tomorrow you will die. The route is the same for all. All the earth is sown with the bones of the deceased like a field of wheat and the living cannot find a spot upon which to step without disturbing with their feet the remains of the deceased. Do not seek delights for sight and hearing, for tomorrow your eyes will close and your ears will stop hearing. Do not give will to your hands and feet. Tomorrow the hand of death will bind them and you yourself will be welded to your death-bed from which you will rise. Do not desire splendid clothing or grand houses, for tomorrow you will be clothed in a shroud and a coffin will be your house. Do not desire rewards and distinction, for they will be displayed only temporarily near your coffin, as if laughing at your vainglory. Do not tie yourself down to the earth or to anything earthly, for tomorrow the scythe of death will sever all such ties and against your will and desire, you will go to the distant country of another world where everything is different and will remind you of nothing of your earthly riches and treasures. Keep vigil and hurry to settle over there in good time in thought and heart so that at that hour when you are led to this region, you will not find yourself in a strange place, unfamiliar with the order there."

9. Humilty. It is in everything aspect of the Church, because pride is the greatest danger for believers. We see the Pharisees get prideful because of following the law. While they follow the law well, they've lost all humility and have become legalistic. On the way to doing what God commanded they lost the plot.

The danger is that we Christians do the same with faith. The Pharisee uses works as a path to pride, I can easily use faith as a path to pride; we Christians can become prideful towards other Christians and look down on those who have the wrong beliefs (in our view). This is a very bad approach. A much better approach is to stand or kneel and say, "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me a sinner" and stop judging others. Having a spiritual father and the Church to remind me and point me in that direction is absolutely essential. That is why I became Orthodox.
Great post and although I have not become Orthodox, I have definitely changed my mind about what is important. And also depending on and trusting God completely. In other words, renewing and changing my mind, or repenting so to speak. When I completely dwell with the Lord, I have never felt such joy and peace. I call it "resting in the Lord". Not there all the time but definitely I hit the sweet spot much more frequently.
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Serotonin
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Quote:

Great post and although I have not become Orthodox, I have definitely changed my mind about what is important. And also depending and trusting God completely. In other words, renewing and changing my mind, or repenting so to speak. When I completely dwell with the Lord, I have never felt such joy and peace. I call it "resting in the Lord". Not there all the time but definitely I hit the sweet spot much more frequently.
Great point, I'm glad you described that. I think that is very close to heysachsim (translated as stillness, rest, quiet, or silence).

Some have accused heysachistic practice as being a Christian version of Buddhism, but there is one important difference. They both seek to remove the "clutter" of life and the mind, but whereas Buddhism seeks to achieve a sort of emptiness, heysachism seeks to turn the focus to God and dwell with Him.

Evagrius Ponticus (345-399) calls it "the practice of inner prayer, aiming at union with God on a level beyond images, concepts and language".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
swimmerbabe11
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What's that quote you use about if only one person didnt get to heaven it would be me but also if only one did, I'd have a pretty good chance?
Zobel
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AG
Was this directed at me? Cuz I dono
swimmerbabe11
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Yes sir, you have used it several times. I don't know who said it tho
Zobel
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Understand two thoughts, and fear them. One says, "You are a saint," the other, "You won't be saved." Both of these thoughts are from the enemy, and there is no truth in them. But think this way: I am a great sinner, but the Lord is merciful. He loves people very much, and He will forgive my sins.
-St. Silouan the Athonite

swimmerbabe11
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Harumph. Not it but that is super pretty. I'll grant you a blue star for good effort.
Serotonin
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New book out from Princeton University Press that looks great -- Christianity in the Twentieth Century
https://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Twentieth-Century-History-Princeton/dp/0691157103/

Of course there is much more of interest, but here is an excerpt that fits in this thread:
Quote:

History is all about change, and the writing of history seeks to explain processes of change. Of the main strands of Christianity, Eastern Orthodoxy is the most resistant to change and the most reluctant to admit that patterns of Christian worship, let alone Christian belief, ought to display any variation in response to shifts in the cultural and political climate. The Orthodox Church views itself as the divinely appointed witness to the unbroken "Tradition" of primitive apostolic Christianity. Through its divine liturgy it unites the faithful in mystical communion with the holy fellowship of saints and martyrs extending backwards through the centuries of Christian history and forwards into the heavenly company of the redeemed. The church is the visible embodiment of heaven on earth.

Protestant and Catholic history since the eighteenth century has substantially been a narrative of either positive or negative responses to the challenges to ecclesiastical authority presented by modernity -- both those intellectual challenges created by the Enlightenment and modern scientific knowledge, and the social or institutional challenges posed by the emergence of democratic politics and an urban industrial society. In comparison with the Protestant or Catholic churches, the Orthodox Church has appeared relatively untroubled by either of these sets of questions. It has seen comparatively little need to adjust the presentation of the faith to the presuppositions of the Age of Reason.
That second paragraph is interesting to me because you see that reflected in American society and on this board -- Current top 3 threads are about Gender Neutral Bathrooms, Social Justice, and Science/Miracles.
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

That second paragraph is interesting to me because you see that reflected in American society and on this board -- Current top 3 threads are about Gender Neutral Bathrooms, Social Justice, and Science/Miracles.

I wouldn't say that lack of response is anything but lack of engagement. I'm sure the Orthodox faith has something to say to all of those topics and many more besides. They are just a lot less dramatic about it
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Serotonin
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

That second paragraph is interesting to me because you see that reflected in American society and on this board -- Current top 3 threads are about Gender Neutral Bathrooms, Social Justice, and Science/Miracles.

I wouldn't say that lack of response is anything but lack of engagement. I'm sure the Orthodox faith has something to say to all of those topics and many more besides. They are just a lot less dramatic about it
ramblin, sorry for the delayed response...

There is a lot of truth to what you say, but I think something additional is going on.

Imagine an argument between two artists from different modern movements (e.g. a surrealist and a cubist), who argue over some point of technique, or material, or use of color or something else. They then turn to a traditional iconographer to ask her opinion on the dispute.

The problem is that her presuppositions are so far from the surrealist and cubist that any agreement would be merely coincidental. Stepping into the argument is probably inappropriate, since the argument carries a lot of extra baggage that she would inherit by taking a side.

So you take a modern argument like gay marriage. The liberal says that extending marriage equality to gay people is the only fair thing to do in a society that values individual rights. The conservative counters that gay marriage will undermine traditional "judeo-christian" values, which have led to a prosperous society in Western Europe and America.

They then turn to the Orthodox Christian: Whose side are YOU on??

Here again you have the same problem as the first example. The Orthodox Christian's goal in life is to love God and neighbor and acquire the Holy Spirit, not to promote liberal Western values or the general wealth and prosperity of society. Of course we can participate in political life and we're called to be diligent in our jobs, but they can't become our life's end; they impermanent and fleeting.

One of the great dangers for Christians is that it is very easy to become distracted by political and other worldly diversions and forget God. We end up on the island of the Lotos Eaters and forget our journey's purpose.

That's just my take on the subject, and why I now steer clear of political topics and debates.
EmoryEagles
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swimmerbabe11 said:

Yes sir, you have used it several times. I don't know who said it tho

Sounds an awful lot like something I've read:

Yahya ibn Abi Kathir reported: Umar ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, said, "If a caller from heaven announced that all people would enter Paradise together except for one man, I would fear that I am him. And if a caller announced that all people would enter Hellfire together except for one man, I would hope that I am him."


Source: Hilyat al-Awliya


Easy to mix up teachings between religions. Our heart yearns to be close to our Beloved, and things that seem devotional, even if they are foreign or even inaccurate substitutes, still have an effect of calming the heart.
AgLiving06
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Russian Orthodox Church breaks with Constantinople in row over Ukraine


I imagine this has to be kind of a big deal for the Orthodox Church right now.
Serotonin
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Interestingly enough I haven't heard one thing from our Priest or fellow parishioners. I'm sure it's on his radar but probably not on the average parishioner's.
Zobel
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From a bishop:
Aside from believing that this action should be evaluated solely on ecclesiastical grounds and in view of what is best for the spiritual advancement of the whole of Orthodoxy, and not on what may or may not be issues of procedural, canonical, historical, or (sadly) political considerations and consequences (whether these consequences be positive or negative), I am terribly concerned about the caricature of Orthodoxy, and especially here in the West, that emerges from the public airing of concerns about this recent event from our Church "leaders."

Orthodoxy is little known in the West, despite the many exaggerations that exist about its growth here, and it is truly sad that when it does appear in the public media, it is quite commonly in the context of some scandal or a political struggle for power among its constituent members; hence, my comments below.

Oddly, in a Church which bases authenticity solely on adherence to Orthodox Church Canons and theological uniformity with the Patristic consensus, the arguments today about who recognizes whom in Orthodoxy has settled on a very papal model, the Patriarch of Constantinople gravitating towards a universal accrediting role and away from the place of the first among equals.

In reaction, the unequal equals make their arguments on the foundation of some historical, ethnic, or self-proclaimed administrative accrediting authority derived from historical, ethnic, or political claim to power.

As such, Orthodoxy has transformed the foundation of the unity of its communities, which has always been spiritual and doctrinal, to something foreign to its ecclesiology. In effect, Orthodoxy is becoming an ecclesio-political phenomenon, instead of the criterion of truth in Christianity, which was always the source of its witness and the more inclusive definition of its claims to primacy.

Ironically, those political concerns that have transformed Orthodoxy into what it is not have also attracted it to the ecumenical movement, a decidedly political and ideological one, which, while laying claims to an inclusive, if not syncretistic, definition of the Christian Church, does so in such a way as to misunderstand, wrongly express, and distort the Orthodox definition of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

The Orthodox Church by its very nature invites all who embrace it as the criterion of Truth into a singular communion of Baptism, confession, and correct Christian practice (Orthopraxy). Its singularity if inclusive in the most basic evangelical way.

I dare say that, in this distortion of the Body of Christ, we find Orthodoxy, in its modernized form, at odds with the primacy of Orthodoxy, while, at the same time, we who stand for traditional Orthodoxy have wrongly looked at its primacy in terms that represent it as a closed, exclusivist, ethnic, and even intolerant witness.

What a sad thing that, recovering from the depths of the earth a gem that is brilliant with the splendor of Truth (an encompassing and self-verifying Truth that is found in the heart and which belongs to all: that Johannine Light that enlightens any man or women coming into the world), we have dimmed its brilliance.
PacifistAg
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Okay, random question for any of the Orthodox posters. I was looking at this site: First Visit to an Orthodox Church: Twelve Things I Wish I'd Known, and I have a question about the sign of the cross. So, I get the symbolism (and love it, btw) about how the hand is held:

Quote:

We cross with our right hands from right to left (push, not pull), the opposite of Roman Catholics and high-church Protestants. We hold our hands in a prescribed way: thumb and first two fingertips pressed together, last two fingers pressed down to the palm. Here as elsewhere, the Orthodox impulse is to make everything we do reinforce the Faith. Can you figure out the symbolism? (Three fingers together for the Trinity; two fingers brought down to the palm for the two natures of Christ, and his coming down to earth.)
My question is regarding the bolded section. Is there a reason for the "push, not pull" method of crossing?
Zobel
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Just the older way. There's a catechism of the Roman church from the medieval period instructing their people to do it the way we do it now. I don't know why or when it changed.
PacifistAg
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Thanks. Reached out to the priest here at St Silouan about visiting. I'll let you know when, in case you're still willing to come up to show me the ropes.
Zobel
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In College Ststion? Fr Meletios?
PacifistAg
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Yes, College Station. I emailed a person named Fr Gregory Gibson. Got the email from their website. Should I direct my email elsewhere?
Zobel
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Fr Gregory moved - or if he hasn't, he is moving soon. Fr Meletios has been serving up there a lot in the meantime.

PacifistAg
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Thanks
Serotonin
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AG
Good luck, look forward to hearing your impressions.
Captain Pablo
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Good thread and I'm glad you started it

I too have developed an interest in exploring Eastern Orthodoxy, and indeed have recently attended Divine Liturgy worship services

I don't know you, And I'm not Orthodox, bUt I would certainly encourage you to look seriously into whether that anarcho-pacifism thing you got going there is compatible with being faithful to the Church

Not so much the pacifism thing, that's definitely compatible with Eastern Orthodoxy, but...

There is certainly a strong element of obedience in Eastern Orthodoxy, to the church, It's charge, directives, etc.. is that up your alley?

The Church also recognizes the need for civil governmental authority and laws... from what I understand, the church says members are subject to civil authority just like anyone else. Members may, and would be expected to conscientiously object to the immoral commands of civil authority... such as a directive to fight in an immoral war

But, if you get into trouble with the authorities because of your conscientious objection, you don't whine about it, throw a fit, or fight it tooth and nail... You take your medicine like a man

It is your anarchistic worldview that I can see clashing with this element of the Orthodox Church.

Maybe it's perfect for you. I have no idea.. I'm just wondering how you reconcile some of these seemingly incompatible elements

What do you think?

And k2, please correct any of my errors you see fit.
Zobel
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Lol I am not in any place to correct anyone.
Captain Pablo
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k2aggie07 said:

Lol I am not in any place to correct anyone.


Of course you are!

I don't want to misrepresent anything the church stands for. Like I said, I'm not a member, I am very, very early in this exploration
Captain Pablo
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Sorry. Wrong emoji. Was supposed to be a
PacifistAg
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AG

Quote:

There is certainly a strong element of obedience in Eastern Orthodoxy, to the church, It's charge, directives, etc.. is that up your alley?
I have no issue with obedience.
Quote:

The Church also recognizes the need for civil governmental authority and laws... from what I understand, the church says members are subject to civil authority just like anyone else. Members may, and would be expected to conscientiously object to the immoral commands of civil authority... such as a directive to fight in an immoral war

But, if you get into trouble with the authorities because of your conscientious objection, you don't whine about it, throw a fit, or fight it tooth and nail... You take your medicine like a man
That last paragraph is basically what I say we should do any time the subject comes up. I won't support the state. I won't do their bidding. But, if my refusal to adhere to Caesar's commands put me in his crosshairs, then I'll submit to whatever they wish to do to me.
 
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