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You haven't refuted a thing.

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Oh but I have. You as someone who has not attended a "prosperity doctrine" church for years on end have laid forth accusations of preaching that the level of wealth one has is relational to how righteous you are, among many other interpretations. I, as someone who has gone to those churches, have told you flat out that that is not what they preached and that they actually agree with many of the sentiments you posted in opposition to what you think they are about.

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however there is nothing wrong with enjoying life while serving God.

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And nobody said there was something wrong with it. Where we differ is that you say "enjoying life while serving God", and I would say "enjoying life by serving God". Your "enjoyment" of life is driven by self. I want my enjoyment of life to be driven by God.

So if your preaching were successful then everyone that went would live in RVs and give every extra cent to others?

Texaggie7nine said:

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So if your preaching were successful then everyone that went would live in RVs and give every extra cent to others?

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Nope. Never said that. You like creating fake arguments, then arguing against them.

I didn't say you said that. I am asking. So would any of your church goers have nice houses or nice things if they were listening to your preacher?

Texaggie7nine said:

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I didn't say you said that. I am asking. So would any of your church goers have nice houses or nice things if they were listening to your preacher?

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Sorry. You framed a question in a way to make it appear to be an argument I've made.

If I were a preacher, I'd hope that people walked away wanting to devote every cent possible to the service of others. I'm a fan of the church in Acts, where all things were held in common. I've long described myself as a communalist. We, along with our closest friends, are actually looking at doing that very thing (starting a communal church).

Does that mean I believe all Christians should live in communes? No. Do I think we should give till it hurts, or a more churchy term -- sacrificially? Yes. How that looks is largely dependent on a variety of circumstances. The key, though, is that I believe we should be living for Him, not for ourselves. I don't believe in an egocentric faith, which is why I reject the prosperity gospel.

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Maybe people can understand nuanced lessons of the Bible and see that money, like anything else but God, cannot make you happy alone, however there is nothing wrong with enjoying life while serving God.

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The danger is that the prosperity gospel spends no time setting limits on what is "enjoying life" and what's not. It seems to minimize the "serving God" concept to lift up the "enjoying life" concept.

So no one in your hypothetical church would be living a good Christian life if they had a nice house or nice things relative to a poor american?

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It seems to minimize the "serving God" concept to lift up the "enjoying life" concept.

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Retired church seems to relegate humans as to nothing more than dogs but I can't say for a fact they do.

Texaggie7nine said:

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So no one in your hypothetical church would be living a good Christian life if they had a nice house or nice things relative to a poor american?

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Didn't say that. Seriously, I've never known you to be this intellectually dishonest in discussions before.

Texaggie7nine said:

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It seems to minimize the "serving God" concept to lift up the "enjoying life" concept.

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Retired church seems to relegate humans as to nothing more than dogs but I can't say for a fact they do.

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Sigh. More nonsense.

RetiredAg said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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So no one in your hypothetical church would be living a good Christian life if they had a nice house or nice things relative to a poor american?

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Didn't say that. Seriously, I've never known you to be this intellectually dishonest in discussions before.

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Again. I'm asking. Why do you think I'm saying you said that?

Texaggie7nine said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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So no one in your hypothetical church would be living a good Christian life if they had a nice house or nice things relative to a poor american?

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Didn't say that. Seriously, I've never known you to be this intellectually dishonest in discussions before.

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Again. I'm asking. Why do you think I'm saying you said that?

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Because your framing of the question make it obvious. Don't be obtuse.

As for your charge that I'm relegating humans to nothing more than dogs, that couldn't be further from the truth. I believe we, the church, are the hands and feet of Christ in this world. I believe we are missionaries of His Kingdom. It's dirty work, but oh so enjoyable. Our job isn't to fill our barns, then build even bigger ones. Our focus isn't self, as it is with your prosperity gospel false teachers. Dogs? Hell no. We are servants of the Most High God, and serving Him is hard, challenging, often dangerous, but far more enjoyable than anything the world offers.

RetiredAg said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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It seems to minimize the "serving God" concept to lift up the "enjoying life" concept.

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Retired church seems to relegate humans as to nothing more than dogs but I can't say for a fact they do.

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Sigh. More nonsense.

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How can you say that. You have no right to say what something seems like to me.

Texaggie7nine said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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It seems to minimize the "serving God" concept to lift up the "enjoying life" concept.

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Retired church seems to relegate humans as to nothing more than dogs but I can't say for a fact they do.

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Sigh. More nonsense.

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How can you say that. You have no right to say what something seems like to me.

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Oh, I don't doubt that you believe it seems like that. It's nonsense that it does, because it shows just how intellectually dishonest you've been this entire thread.

Ok, so good Christians that are following the good book can live in nice houses, have nice things. Can I say you said that?

Texaggie7nine said:

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Ok, so good Christians that are following the good book can live in nice houses, have nice things. Can I say you said that?

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Oh, you've proven you'll say whatever you want regardless of whether or not it's accurate. You don't need my authorization, as you've proven reality won't stop you.

But, yes, a Christian can have a nice house and nice things. I've never said otherwise, but you know that.

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Ok, so good Christians that are following the good book can live in nice houses, have nice things. Can I say you said that?

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It's a mindset thing. What's a "nice house" and "nice things" and whats your justification? I think if it's because God wants you to have them or that you deserve them...that's a problem.

diehard03 said:

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Ok, so good Christians that are following the good book can live in nice houses, have nice things. Can I say you said that?

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It's a mindset thing. What's a "nice house" and "nice things" and whats your justification? I think if it's because God wants you to have them or that you deserve them...that's a problem.

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Exactly.

RetiredAg said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Ok, so good Christians that are following the good book can live in nice houses, have nice things. Can I say you said that?

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Oh, you've proven you'll say whatever you want regardless of whether or not it's accurate. You don't need my authorization, as you've proven reality won't stop you.

But, yes, a Christian can have a nice house and nice things. I've never said otherwise, but you know that.

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A christian can go into a strip club and bang hookers too. That's not what I asked. I said a GOOD Christian.

Texaggie7nine said:

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So no one in your hypothetical church would be living a good Christian life if they had a nice house or nice things relative to a poor american?

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It's about priorities and attitudes, not about bank account size.

If the rich Christian gives a away a lot of his money, doesn't feel like he is more important than the average bum on the street, would be willing to give it all away if God asked him to, his job held a proper place in his life compared to his commitments to God, his family, church, and community, and would have about the same amount of Joy in his life if he suddenly lot it all, then, yes, he would be living a Christian life.

Pretty much easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to pull the above off perfectly.

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I think if it's because God wants you to have them or that you deserve them...that's a problem.

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Well I already established that Joel doesn't preach about getting abundance because we deserve it. So. Does God want us to have them?

Would you consider your nice things a blessing? Or all your own doing and no help from God, and God could care less whether you have them or not?

Texaggie7nine said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Ok, so good Christians that are following the good book can live in nice houses, have nice things. Can I say you said that?

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Oh, you've proven you'll say whatever you want regardless of whether or not it's accurate. You don't need my authorization, as you've proven reality won't stop you.

But, yes, a Christian can have a nice house and nice things. I've never said otherwise, but you know that.

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A christian can go into a strip club and bang hookers too. That's not what I asked. I said a GOOD Christian.

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See diehard's response.

7nine,
There's really no point in continuing this if you're going to be as obtuse and intellectually dishonest as you've been. On way home. Have great evening.

Texaggie7nine said:

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I think if it's because God wants you to have them or that you deserve them...that's a problem.

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Well I already established that Joel doesn't preach about getting abundance because we deserve it. So. Does God want us to have them?

Would you consider your nice things a blessing? Or all your own doing and no help from God, and God could care less whether you have them or not?

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The proper attitude is that they are not my nice things. They belong to God.

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It's about priorities and attitudes, not about bank account size.

If the rich Christian gives a away a lot of his money, doesn't feel like he is more important than the average bum on the street, would be willing to give it all away if God asked him to, his job held a proper place in his life compared to his commitments to God, his family, church, and community, and would have about the same amount of Joy in his life if he suddenly lot it all, then, yes, he would be living a Christian life.

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And what evidence do you have that Joel preaches the contrary to this?

RetiredAg said:

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7nine,
There's really no point in continuing this if you're going to be as obtuse and intellectually dishonest as you've been. On way home. Have great evening.

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You can accuse me of whatever you want. All I am doing is fighting fire with fire. If you cannot see how intellectually dishonest you have been, then I guess go pray for God to bless you with opening your eyes. You throw out all these assumptions of what you think the prosperity gospel preachers teach and then continue on your merry way even after I have stated to the contrary.

So then you believe God blesses Christians with the nice things they have?

He hasn't been.

If you have an issue with what they actually believe, fine. I can live with that. The trouble is you have not been stating what they believe. I've been attending such a church for years and I've never heard any of what you have said. 7Nine has told you that you're incorrect well. The amount of pride and hubris it takes to triple-down when you're told "that is not what they believe" astounds me.

No such thing as a good Christian. Only One is Good (Luke 18:19).

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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He hasn't been.

If you have an issue with what they actually believe, fine. I can live with that. The trouble is you have not been stating what they believe. I've been attending such a church for years and I've never heard any of what you have said. 7Nine has told you that you're incorrect well. The amount of pride and hubris it takes to triple-down when you're told "that is not what they believe" astounds me.

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No, you dismiss it as being taken out of context or misrepresented. The article in the OP had plenty of comments from these peddlers. Your defense is simply they are being taken out of context. But 7nine has been creating false dichotomies throughout this thread. K2 repeatedly called him out on it. 7nine has repeatedly made up arguments never made.

It's fine if you disagree with how the quotes from prosperity gospel leaders are being presented. That's not what he's done. He's made up arguments and constantly used false dichotomies as if that's a legitimate discussion method.

Also, you have repeatedly said you haven't listened to many of the prosperity gospel peddlers, and haven't even heard of Paul White, so I don't see how you have much credibility as to what these people peddling. You may attend a prosperity gospel church, but are clearly not well informed on what the leaders of this movement are teaching.

You say I credit them when I end the sentence with a question mark. You end yours with a period.

k2aggie07 said:

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No such thing as a good Christian. Only One is Good (Luke 18:19).

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So your ideal preacher is to just tell everyone how horrible and pathetic they are?

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As a student of Kenyon, Kenneth Hagin, revered as "granddaddy" in Word of Faith circles, gave the faith-healing movement its theological core. It included odd teachings about us all being "little gods." Those who are born again, Hagin said, "are as much the incarnation [of God] as Jesus of Nazareth." "You don't have a God living in you," says Hagin's student Kenneth Copeland. "You are one." Creflo Dollar adds, "[The] only human part of you is the flesh you're wearing."

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Texaggie7nine said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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No such thing as a good Christian. Only One is Good (Luke 18:19).

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So your ideal preacher is to just tell everyone how horrible and pathetic they are?

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Arguing point never made again