No. The ideal priest teaches the gospel which tells us how amazing and wonderful God is, and how overwhelmingly important He is when compared to the entire while.

Perspective is important.

The problem with prosperity gospel as explained by people on this thread create a nice feeling middle way where it's ok for God to do his but also to have stuff be a nice reward. God offers us Himself - no more and no less. Saying it's Him and temporal blessings trivializes Him and diminishes Him.

Well if we are created by God, if we have a purpose here. If we could do the exact same things Jesus did if we had the faith. Why is that so far off of a statement?

Quote:

---

Of course, to be a "little god," you have to do your part, often involving a financial commitment. It's what they call "seed faith." White even gives her viewers the words to tell themselves: "So I'm going to activate my miracle by my obedience right now. I'm going to get up and go to the phone." When you do that, she says, and "put a demand on the anointing," you're "going to make God get off His ivory throne." "Don't you miss this moment! If you miss your moment, you miss your miracle!" When Jesus raised Lazarus, according to the old King James Version, "his face was bound with a napkin." It's taken from John 11:44, so for everyone who sends $1144 (get it?), White said, she would send a napkin she blessed.

---

Quote:

---

God offers us Himself - no more and no less.

---

So then any and all financial abundance in your life is not a blessing from God but merely your own doing?

Quote:

---

Some representatives, like Osteen, offer an easy-listening version that seems as harmless as a fortune cookie. It's when he tries to interpret the Bible that he gets into trouble, as in his latest book, "The Power of I Am." "Romans 4 says to 'call the things that are not as though they were,'" he says, but the biblical passage is actually referring to God.

But it's not really about God. In fact, one gets the impression that God isn't necessary at all in the system. God set up these spiritual laws and if you know the secrets, you're in charge of your destiny. You "release wealth," as they often put it, by commanding it to come to you. "Anyone who tells you to deny yourself is from Satan," White told a television TBN audience in 2007. Oops. It was Jesus who said "anyone who would come after me" must "deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Matthew 16:24).

---

Quote:

---

Southern Baptist leader Russell Moore tweeted, "Paula White is a charlatan and recognized as a heretic by every orthodox Christian, of whatever tribe."

---

RetiredAg said:

---

Quote:

---

Some representatives, like Osteen, offer an easy-listening version that seems as harmless as a fortune cookie. It's when he tries to interpret the Bible that he gets into trouble, as in his latest book, "The Power of I Am." "Romans 4 says to 'call the things that are not as though they were,'" he says, but the biblical passage is actually referring to God.

But it's not really about God. In fact, one gets the impression that God isn't necessary at all in the system. God set up these spiritual laws and if you know the secrets, you're in charge of your destiny. You "release wealth," as they often put it, by commanding it to come to you. "Anyone who tells you to deny yourself is from Satan," White told a television TBN audience in 2007. Oops. It was Jesus who said "anyone who would come after me" must "deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Matthew 16:24).

---

---

Well now that's actually closer to what I believe. But Joel doesn't preach that.

RetiredAg said:

---

Quote:

---

Southern Baptist leader Russell Moore tweeted, "Paula White is a charlatan and recognized as a heretic by every orthodox Christian, of whatever tribe."

---

---

I don't know much about her.

Texaggie7nine said:

---

Quote:

---

God offers us Himself - no more and no less.

---

So then any and all financial abundance in your life is not a blessing from God but merely your own doing?

---

Because we aren't just as much the incarnation of God as Jesus. Despite what heretics say, Christ is the only begotten Son of God. We are created in His image, but that doesn't mean we are His incarnation. That's putting man on the level of Christ. It's a rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity.

Moved on from false dichotomy to non sequitur I see.

Texaggie7nine said:

---

RetiredAg said:

---

Quote:

---

Southern Baptist leader Russell Moore tweeted, "Paula White is a charlatan and recognized as a heretic by every orthodox Christian, of whatever tribe."

---

---

I don't know much about her.

---

Amazing how those defending the prosperity gospel seem to know very little about the leaders of this heresy.

Quote:

---

No, you dismiss it as being taken out of context or misrepresented. The article in the OP had plenty of comments from these peddlers. Your defense is simply they are being taken out of context. But 7nine has been creating false dichotomies throughout this thread. K2 repeatedly called him out on it. 7nine has repeatedly made up arguments never made.

---

Your original premise is "These heretics believe ______. And then you're told, no they don't believe ______ and You double down on your statement

Quote:

---

It's fine if you disagree with how the quotes from prosperity gospel leaders are being presented. That's not what he's done. He's made up arguments and constantly used false dichotomies as if that's a legitimate discussion method.

---

I read it as trying to illustrate a point, not necessarily a false dichotomy.

Look, I have admitted that I have not heard Paula White or many others speak, so I cannot properly assess what their beliefs are. But I know what my church teaches, and I know what we believe, and I can unequivocally state that none of what you have posted is what we believe. So maybe, just maybe, you're a little off base regarding the word of faith preachers.

Maybe Paula does believe exactly what you have said. Or maybe you have stripped what she said of all context. But I can admit it.

k2aggie07 said:

---

Moved on from false dichotomy to non sequitur I see.

---

Answer the question if you don't fear it.

Have you ever consider that if people who claim to have attended prosperity gospels haven't heard of her, maybe those within those churches don't consider her to be a leader of their movement?

Error - that the rewards of Christianity are God and ___.

"God and" theology is wrong.

It's God. That's what He gives us: Himself. Why? To be like Him, to become joined to Him.

Saying "God and" implies merely God is insufficient.

Nothing else is relevant.

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

---

Look, I have admitted that I have not heard Paula White or many others speak, so I cannot properly assess what their beliefs are. But I know what my church teaches, and I know what we believe, and I can unequivocally state that none of what you have posted is what we believe. So maybe, just maybe, you're a little off base regarding the word of faith preachers.

---

Or maybe, just maybe, your church is unique and doesn't reflect the heretical views of the leaders of this movement. You seem to not be familiar with their teachings, so it could be that they ate an aberration, which would be odd given they're the visible leaders, or your church is the aberration.

k2aggie07 said:

---

Error - that the rewards of Christianity are God and ___.

"God and" theology is wrong.

It's God. That's what He gives us: Himself. Why? To be like Him, to become joined to Him.

Saying "God and" implies merely God is insufficient.

Nothing else is relevant.

---

Well he did say that this comment is closer to what he believes:

"In fact, one gets the impression that God isn't necessary at all in the system. God set up these spiritual laws and if you know the secrets, you're in charge of your destiny."

k2aggie07 said:

---

Error - that the rewards of Christianity are God and ___.

"God and" theology is wrong.

It's God. That's what He gives us: Himself. Why? To be like Him, to become joined to Him.

Saying "God and" implies merely God is insufficient.

Nothing else is relevant.

---

So all the nice things you have are blessing from God. And as you watch a poor person whom needs your help to eat today, and they ask if you thought they could look towards God to get out of the financial misery they were in, you would sit in your nice house and tell them that "welp God only gives to those that he wants, so just be content with what you have and praise Him". And that would be all the advise you would offer??

Alright. Your turn to answer some questions.

1. You're always fond of the eternal suffering point of view. What value is anything, even a lot of something, if ultimately it is temporal, when compared to the point of view of eternity?

2. If God is Uncreated and therefore Transcendent and greater than all created things, would you agree He has infinite value? What can be added to infinity to make it greater? If God gives us Himself, to become like Himself, of what value or possible utility to our salvation can literally any thing be?

3. If God's promises include material wealth, why were so many of the divinely inspired prophets in such miserable temporal circumstances? Just dummies who asked for the wrong things, or..?

4. What use is it to have a promise that includes material wealth if material wealth might also not come from God? As a comparison, why would we bother with God for salvation if it also could be achieved by other means?

You are not making any sense. God gives abundantly yet God apparently isn't where to look if you are desperate to get out of financial poverty. So there are some things in life you think that God doesn't have the answer? Because obviously if a fishing rod can't start a fire then you are saying God can't help the guy's financial issues.

Texaggie7nine said:

---

You are not making any sense. God gives abundantly yet God apparently isn't where to look if you are desperate to get out of financial poverty. So there are some things in life you think that God doesn't have the answer? Because obviously if a fishing rod can't start a fire then you are saying God can't help the guy's financial issues.

---

I didn't say He didn't have the answer. I said it's a waste of time to ask for the finite when you're being offered the infinite.

Quote:

---

1. You're always fond of the eternal suffering point of view. What value is anything, even a lot of something, if ultimately it is temporal, when compared to the point of view of eternity?

---

Well if God created a pit of eternal suffering where millions of humans were going to go then I would advise to not follow that evil god.

However, in the context of Joel's preaching, there is nothing wrong with wanting to ease your suffering while here and using the tool of faith to work with God to live in abundance.

Quote:

---

2. If God is Uncreated and therefore Transcendent and greater than all created things, would you agree He has infinite value? What can be added to infinity to make it greater? If God gives us Himself, to become like Himself, of what value or possible utility to our salvation can literally any thing be?

---

Well this is a non sequitur as you seem to be so fond of, since Joel has never equated how much you have with how saved you are.

Quote:

---

3. If God's promises include material wealth, why were so many of the divinely inspired prophets in such miserable temporal circumstances? Just dummies who asked for the wrong things, or..?

---

I don't recall Joel preaching that God promised that all his loyal followers would be wealthy.

Quote:

---

4. What use is it to have a promise that includes material wealth if material wealth might also not come from God? As a comparison, why would we bother with God for salvation if it also could be achieved by other means?

---

Again I don't believe in salvation, but as far a Joel preaches, simply being wealthy doesn't mean you are happy.

God provided mana in the Bible but that didn't mean everyone that ate it was saved did it?

Solo/7nine,
I just watched a video re: Christian treatment of the LGBTQ community. One of the pastors in the video mentioned a verse from Peter about approaching others with gentleness and respect. Thinking back on this thread, I realize I have failed in that regard. While we clearly disagree on the prosperity gospel, I did not voice my disagreements with the gentleness and respect I should have. So, I'm sorry.

k2aggie07 said:

---

Texaggie7nine said:

---

You are not making any sense. God gives abundantly yet God apparently isn't where to look if you are desperate to get out of financial poverty. So there are some things in life you think that God doesn't have the answer? Because obviously if a fishing rod can't start a fire then you are saying God can't help the guy's financial issues.

---

I didn't say He didn't have the answer. I said it's a waste of time to ask for the finite when you're being offered the infinite.

---

So a person who is born again, lives for God but is simply impoverished and cannot provide anywhere near a secure financial life for his/her family is wasting their time to want to be able to provide?

Do you not see how callous and cruel this line of thinking looks to those without and suffering financially?

RetiredAg said:

---

Solo/7nine,
I just watched a video re: Christian treatment of the LGBTQ community. One of the pastors in the video mentioned a verse from Peter about approaching others with gentleness and respect. Thinking back on this thread, I realize I have failed in that regard. While we clearly disagree on the prosperity gospel, I did not voice my disagreements with the gentleness and respect I should have. So, I'm sorry.

---

It is kind of you but I don't think it is needed on a board where debate is the norm. I can take it.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Look, I have admitted that I have not heard Paula White or many others speak, so I cannot properly assess what their beliefs are. But I know what my church teaches, and I know what we believe, and I can unequivocally state that none of what you have posted is what we believe. So maybe, just maybe, you're a little off base regarding the word of faith preachers.

---

Or maybe, just maybe, your church is unique and doesn't reflect the heretical views of the leaders of this movement. You seem to not be familiar with their teachings, so it could be that they ate an aberration, which would be odd given they're the visible leaders, or your church is the aberration.

---

It's possible that it is. However, I know of a connection to some of the people you've listed. Knowing my church and its leadership like I do, I can say in no uncertain terms that they would not associate, much less consider someone who believes what you have stated to a spiritual mentor. So you may be a little incorrect of your assessment of what they actually believe.

You're behaving just like those people on the politics board you so despise. The funny thing is, I never took you to be this kind of person. Edit: I didn't see your apology prior to posting.

No. Man you love that false dichotomy.

Work hard. Provide as best you can. But your number one priority above all things to the point that is from all your heart and soul and mind is to love God, to seek God - to subordinate all things to God.

You may never be rich, but you can attain to salvation.

They. Are. Not. Related.

I really don't see any point in repeating it again.

Texaggie7nine said:

---

RetiredAg said:

---

Solo/7nine,
I just watched a video re: Christian treatment of the LGBTQ community. One of the pastors in the video mentioned a verse from Peter about approaching others with gentleness and respect. Thinking back on this thread, I realize I have failed in that regard. While we clearly disagree on the prosperity gospel, I did not voice my disagreements with the gentleness and respect I should have. So, I'm sorry.

---

It is kind of you but I don't think it is needed on a board where debate is the norm. I can take it.

---

Oh, I am sure you can take it. I was wrong and needed to apologize.

Quote:

---

You're behaving just like those people on the politics board you so despise. The funny thing is, I never took you to be this kind of person. Edit: I didn't see your apology prior to posting.

---

You're right. My apologies.

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Texaggie7nine said:

---

A "prosperity doctrine" church would tell the people that beyond being saved, the people in Africa should put their faith in Jesus to help them server a higher purpose and to live more abundantly. To not have to worry about where the next meal comes from. Not that they are living so destitute because they didn't obey God but rather that they can get out of it with faith in God to help them.

---

Here is the prosperity doctrine in Africa. Enjoy.

---

After watching that I did not find anything similar to Joel in their preaching. They look to be outright charlatans to me. Joel and his Father both preached on all aspects of living as a christian. The financial prosperity aspect of it was just a piece that wasn't talked about in every sermon.

k2aggie07 said:

---

No. Man you love that false dichotomy.

Work hard. Provide as best you can. But your number one priority above all things to the point that is from all your heart and soul and mind is to love God, to seek God - to subordinate all things to God.

You may never be rich, but you can attain to salvation.

They. Are. Not. Related.

I really don't see any point in repeating it again.

---

You don't see the point, as a Christian, to look to God for help in all aspects of life? It's almost like you are cutting off your professional life from your religious one.

On the contrary, you're drawing a line where none exists. All aspects of life implies that there are more than one. There are not. There is only one aspect of life: to live is Christ. It is the only goal in my life, and if I'm doing it properly everything else is a part of that, a tool for that, a means to that end.

If I was poor, I would probably pray about money. I don't begrudge anyone for worrying about money. If I were also struggling with money, it's probably not something I can do. I don't know.

I do know that we are all in situations for our salvation, good and bad situations. I know that it all works for good, not just the stuff that seems good today.

Which is really another problem with your vantage. You say it's cruel and mean to tell people not to hope for money or security. I think it's cruel to have them hope for anything other than salvation in Christ, because ultimately all other hopes are empty and hollow.

Quote:

---

Would you consider your nice things a blessing? Or all your own doing and no help from God, and God could care less whether you have them or not?

---

I am sure that K2 has covered this, but I am not sure how you get here from my statement. God is the source of all things. God cares what we have. It's just wrong to take those 2 statements that think that God wants us to be rich or "successful in our careers".

just re joined this thread....what the heck