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making success the most important aspect of your life

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Who preaches this? Really? This is getting to be nothing more than a drawn out bad joke. Stop with the complete fabrications.

7thGenTexan said:

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Sorry, I don't click on Stephen Colbert links. I do laugh at rich people such as yourself virtue signaling about the nobility of the downtrodden.

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So, are the downtrodden less valuable than rich people? Are they worth less than rich people?

Are rich people worth more because they are rich? Are really rich people worth more than merely well-off people?

It's not that it is good to be poor. It is that wealth is a terrible measuring stick for the value of a person.

Texaggie7nine said:

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BusterAg said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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So everything God wants you to do only has to do with being close to Him?

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Yes.

This is the purpose of man.

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So then explain Leviticus.

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Leviticus is a bunch of rules Moses laid out to try and establish a society that could seek God. A bunch of it looks silly to people living millennia later. I'm not really all that surprised.

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I believe God's keeping the records, and I believe you will be rewarded even in this life. Somehow, some way, God will make it up to you. It may be He protected you from an accident you never knew. You can't give God something without God giving you more in return, whether it's peace or joy or satisfaction.

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God wants us to prosper financially, to have plenty of money, to fulfill the destiny He has laid out for us.

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It's God's will for you to live in prosperity instead of poverty. It's God's will for you to pay your bills and not be in debt.

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I believe that God's dream is that we be successful in our careers, and that we be able to send our kids to college. I don't mean that everyone is going to be rich, and I preach a lot on blooming where you're planted. But I don't have the mindset that money is a bad thing.

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None of the above quotes are defendable. This is the philosophy that I have a problem with.

BusterAg said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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BusterAg said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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So everything God wants you to do only has to do with being close to Him?

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Yes.

This is the purpose of man.

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So then explain Leviticus.

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Leviticus is a bunch of rules Moses laid out to try and establish a society that could seek God. A bunch of it looks silly to people living millennia later. I'm not really all that surprised.

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So Moses made them up himself? And every one of them is about seeking God?

BusterAg said:

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I believe God's keeping the records, and I believe you will be rewarded even in this life. Somehow, some way, God will make it up to you. It may be He protected you from an accident you never knew. You can't give God something without God giving you more in return, whether it's peace or joy or satisfaction.

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God wants us to prosper financially, to have plenty of money, to fulfill the destiny He has laid out for us.

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It's God's will for you to live in prosperity instead of poverty. It's God's will for you to pay your bills and not be in debt.

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I believe that God's dream is that we be successful in our careers, and that we be able to send our kids to college. I don't mean that everyone is going to be rich, and I preach a lot on blooming where you're planted. But I don't have the mindset that money is a bad thing.

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None of the above quotes are defendable. This is the philosophy that I have a problem with.

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Sounds like a personal problem to me.

"Yeah well I can pay all my bills, I can afford to send my kids to college, I am successful, but hey that's just because I'm special, God doesn't want everyone to be successful like me".

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Sounds like a personal problem to me.

"Yeah well I can pay all my bills, I can afford to send my kids to college, I am successful, but hey that's just because I'm special, God doesn't want everyone to be successful like me".

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I guess I just won't understand how you make this jump. You seem to be focused on a very specific circumstance in your rebuttals...and it's a circumstance that no one here is debating against. Everyone wants people to get out of poverty and to pay their bills. But, we do acknowledge that there are things like sending your kids to college that God may not give you money for. It maybe specifically NOT in God's will to do that. God can provide alternative methods of that education that don't involve you paying for it.

I don't have a problem with the last quote, if one defines success as growing in your faith and serving the lord in that role. I think the first 3 seem to have good intentions, but do make definitive statements that I don't think ailgns with the God I read about in the bible.

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I believe God's keeping the records, and I believe you will be rewarded even in this life. Somehow, some way, God will make it up to you. It may be He protected you from an accident you never knew. You can't give God something without God giving you more in return, whether it's peace or joy or satisfaction.

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God wants us to prosper financially, to have plenty of money, to fulfill the destiny He has laid out for us.

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It's God's will for you to live in prosperity instead of poverty. It's God's will for you to pay your bills and not be in debt.

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I believe that God's dream is that we be successful in our careers, and that we be able to send our kids to college. I don't mean that everyone is going to be rich, and I preach a lot on blooming where you're planted. But I don't have the mindset that money is a bad thing.

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None of the above quotes are defendable. This is the philosophy that I have a problem with.

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Not to draw a false dichotomy, but what would you think of the reverse of these statements?

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It's God's will for you to live in poverty instead of plenty.

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God wants us to lack financially, to have not have any money, which is the destiny he has laid out for us.

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Poverty instead of plenty, sickness instead of health, etc. While you may not necessarily agree with the reverse of those statements (I assume that he is quoting Olsteen), what I find surprising is that more people are comfortable with the latter idea than the former.

Haven't you heard Solo? God doesn't really give 2 craps about any part of your life that doesn't have to do with getting closer to him.

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Oh come on. No one has said that.

There is a big difference between "this is the purpose of the Christian life" and "God doesn't care about your problems"

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I've never heard any of the "prosperity" teachers I've listened to say the purpose of the Christian life is to make "oodles of money". I've only heard that the purpose of the Christian life is to worship God and glorify him.

But truly it amazes me how people do not have much a problem with the idea of a God that prefers his people to be defeated, poor, and sick than a God who's vision is for us to be victorious, in health, and prosperous (in all areas of life).

I think God takes joy in our actions that glorify and represent Him rightly.

He obviously does not 'enjoy' us suffering, as He came to Earth to suffer the most to rescue us from this condition.

That doesn't change the facts. 1) When we suffer, especially for good, we are more life Christ, because He suffered. The church is built on the blood of martyrs and maintaining faith and Christian joy through sickness and pain is a far more effective witness than a rich man's.

2) Sometimes, doing 'good' things is beneficial in a material way. However, Christians do good works because they are good, because they love God and want to serve Him. Faith causes good works. Good works without faith are simply ash. There are plenty of "good" people who are atheists and not saved. There are also plenty of bad people who have tremendously successful material lives but have never done a nice thing for anyone.

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Oh come on. No one has said that.

There is a big difference between "this is the purpose of the Christian life" and "God doesn't care about your problems"

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I've never heard any of the "prosperity" teachers I've listened to say the purpose of the Christian life is to make "oodles of money". I've only heard that the purpose of the Christian life is to worship God and glorify him.

But truly it amazes me how people do not have much a problem with the idea of a God that prefers his people to be defeated, poor, and sick than a God who's vision is for us to be victorious, in health, and prosperous (in all areas of life).

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I don't know anyone that thinks God wants us to be "defeated, poor and sick". I think God wants us to serve Him as ambassadors of His Kingdom. I think that applies no matter our circumstances. Some of the greatest witnesses to His Kingdom are the broken, the marginalized, the poor. Does God want us to be poor? No. Does God want us to be wealthy? No. God wants us to walk humbly, love mercy and seek justice. He wants us to love Him w/ all our heart, soul and mind. He wants us to love our neighbor as ourselves. That's what He desires.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Oh come on. No one has said that.

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Oh really?

BusterAg said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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So everything God wants you to do only has to do with being close to Him?

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Yes.

This is the purpose of man.

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It's almost as though you didn't read my post.

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I don't know anyone that thinks God wants us to be "defeated, poor and sick".

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People are far more comfortable with this idea than they are the alternative. How many people have you heard wonder aloud "What is God teaching me by putting me through (bad situation)?"

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I think God wants us to serve Him as ambassadors of His Kingdom. I think that applies no matter our circumstances. Some of the greatest witnesses to His Kingdom are the broken, the marginalized, the poor. Does God want us to be poor? No. Does God want us to be wealthy? No.

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So the circumstances of our lives do not matter to God at all?

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God wants us to walk humbly, love mercy and seek justice. He wants us to love Him w/ all our heart, soul and mind. He wants us to love our neighbor as ourselves. That's what He desires.

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I've not heard a "prosperity" teacher who would disagree with that. However, you stop there. That is when they say God would rather us be prosperous and blessed in all areas of life, without losing sight of what you said.

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I think God takes joy in our actions that glorify and represent Him rightly.

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In addition to walking in love, mercy, and generosity, could that include being prosperous in all that we do?

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He obviously does not 'enjoy' us suffering, as He came to Earth to suffer the most to rescue us from this condition.

That doesn't change the facts. 1) When we suffer, especially for good, we are more life Christ, because He suffered. The church is built on the blood of martyrs and maintaining faith and Christian joy through sickness and pain is a far more effective witness than a rich man's.

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The testing of our faith produces perseverance, yes.

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2) Sometimes, doing 'good' things is beneficial in a material way. However, Christians do good works because they are good, because they love God and want to serve Him. Faith causes good works. Good works without faith are simply ash. There are plenty of "good" people who are atheists and not saved. There are also plenty of bad people who have tremendously successful material lives but have never done a nice thing for anyone

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Again, there is not a prosperity teacher out there who would disagree with you. They always talk about motives and why you are doing things. If you are simply treating the gospel like a "get-rich" scheme, odds are you are not.

Fulfilling your vocation to the best of your ability serves your fellow man. There is no more spiritual glory for the best trash collector in the world than there is for the best engineer on earth. However, the financial disparity between the two is going to be huge. The logic of doing things to the best of your ability being rewarded is logical, not theological.

If you fast out of Christian discipline, you will probably lose some weight and be healthier, but that is not the purpose of fasting.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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It's almost as though you didn't read my post.

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Then explain how eating shellfish is about being close to God.

What do I care about shellfish?

I'm not jewish or a judaizer.

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People are far more comfortable with this idea than they are the alternative. How many people have you heard wonder aloud "What is God teaching me by putting me through (bad situation)?"

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Well, I think some may be more comfortable with it because Jesus regularly cautioned us about the dangers that wealth can pose to our faith.

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I think God wants us to serve Him as ambassadors of His Kingdom. I think that applies no matter our circumstances. Some of the greatest witnesses to His Kingdom are the broken, the marginalized, the poor. Does God want us to be poor? No. Does God want us to be wealthy? No.

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So the circumstances of our lives do not matter to God at all?

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I think God wants us to serve Him in any circumstances. If financial prosperity is a hindrance to our walk w/ Him, then I don't think He'd want us in that circumstance. If our eye causes us to sin, pluck it out.

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God wants us to walk humbly, love mercy and seek justice. He wants us to love Him w/ all our heart, soul and mind. He wants us to love our neighbor as ourselves. That's what He desires.

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I've not heard a "prosperity" teacher who would disagree with that. However, you stop there. That is when they say God would rather us be prosperous and blessed in all areas of life, without losing sight of what you said.

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I don't think that it's necessarily the case that He'd rather we be financially prosperous. Financial prosperity can very easily lead to complacency. Christ repeatedly warned us against the corrosive effects of wealth on our spiritual life. If you can radically serve Him and have wealth, great. Of course, if you are wealthy and radically serving Him, much of your wealth will be used to serve Him and you will live sacrificially anyways.

The purpose of the Christian life is not to worship and glorify Him. The angels do that. We are to become like Him, gods by Grace what God is by His nature.

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Fulfilling your vocation to the best of your ability serves your fellow man.

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Yes, but I believe that it glorifies God. Just like doing a half-assed job does not represent our God very well, no?

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There is no more spiritual glory for the best trash collector in the world than there is for the best engineer on earth. However, the financial disparity between the two is going to be huge.

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Of course.

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The logic of doing things to the best of your ability being rewarded is logical, not theological.

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"Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will serve before kings, not officials of low rank"
~ Proverbs 22:29

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If you fast out of Christian discipline, you will probably lose some weight and be healthier, but that is not the purpose of fasting.

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I grow weary of saying this, but there is not a prosperity teacher who've listened to who would disagree with this. I have been taught when I fast, spend the time that you would be eating in prayer and give away the money that would have been spent on food.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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What do I care about shellfish?

I'm not jewish or a judaizer.

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Is God of the OT a different God? Or are you saying at one point he DID care about people's lives beyond that which only directly correlates to getting closer to God, but now he stopped caring as much about us? "Hey as long as you are close to me, be poor for all I care."

Yeah because when you give that money away God will bless you for it. Like a divine vending machine.

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The purpose of the Christian life is not to worship and glorify Him. The angels do that. We are to become like Him, gods by Grace what God is by His nature.

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I'm generally curious about the bolded part. Mind elaborating on that for me?

k2aggie07 said:

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The purpose of the Christian life is not to worship and glorify Him. The angels do that. We are to become like Him, gods by Grace what God is by His nature.

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So we are all little gods after all???

I never said we weren't supposed to be.

There's a massive caveat in that teaching. We don't become Gods like God. We become united to His Energy, gods by Grace -- we are not gods in Essence or Nature like He is.

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Yeah because when you give that money away God will bless you for it. Like a divine vending machine.

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I believe he will if you are giving it away selflessly. You believe that he won't... or maybe that he can, but you just have no way of knowing.

Theosis/sancitfication/Christification etc etc. The goal of the Christian life is to become like God. Yes.


STC, Christification may be a good book for you to read if you want a thorough analysis of this concept throughout Christian scholarship. It is written from a Lutheran perspective but it goes through various viewpoint on this, because it is a thoroughly orthodox concept. If I were at home, I'd include a really nice quote from the book regarding that.

k2aggie07 said:

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I never said we weren't supposed to be.

There's a massive caveat in that teaching. We don't become Gods like God. We become united to His Energy, gods by Grace -- we are not gods in Essence or Nature like He is.

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yeah I forgot who it was that was accusing Joel of preaching that idea, and I'm too lazy to go looking for it.

Texaggie7nine said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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What do I care about shellfish?

I'm not jewish or a judaizer.

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Is God of the OT a different God? Or are you saying at one point he DID care about people's lives beyond that which only directly correlates to getting closer to God, but now he stopped caring as much about us? "Hey as long as you are close to me, be poor for all I care."

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oh this makes my brain explode because it is such an odd train of thought that I don't really know where to begin.

As with many theological pitfalls, there is a huge confusion of law and gospel in your mindset.

And no, God never changed, but the need for ceremonial law was washed away by Christ's blood. We are under the new covenant, but the Jews were not. God didn't change in the garden of Eden, not in the tower of Babel, the flood, the resurrection or any time after that. However, Jews were give a promise and Christians have the fulfillment of that promise.

As for God's caring about us..I don't understand the correlation to the purpose of our life. The intended purpose of a pack mule to carry large burdens, but that doesn't mean that I don't care about giving my mule good food or a nice blanket or whatever.

This idea is also rooted in the book of John:

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"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

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Texaggie7nine said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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I never said we weren't supposed to be.

There's a massive caveat in that teaching. We don't become Gods like God. We become united to His Energy, gods by Grace -- we are not gods in Essence or Nature like He is.

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yeah I forgot who it was that was accusing Joel of preaching that idea, and I'm too lazy to go looking for it.

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It was Paula White. You are very defensive about Joel.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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What do I care about shellfish?

I'm not jewish or a judaizer.

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Is God of the OT a different God? Or are you saying at one point he DID care about people's lives beyond that which only directly correlates to getting closer to God, but now he stopped caring as much about us? "Hey as long as you are close to me, be poor for all I care."

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oh this makes my brain explode because it is such an odd train of thought that I don't really know where to begin.

As with many theological pitfalls, there is a huge confusion of law and gospel in your mindset.

And no, God never changed, but the need for ceremonial law was washed away by Christ's blood. We are under the new covenant, but the Jews were not. God didn't change in the garden of Eden, not in the tower of Babel, the flood, the resurrection or any time after that. However, Jews were give a promise and Christians have the fulfillment of that promise.

As for God's caring about us..I don't understand the correlation to the purpose of our life. The intended purpose of a pack mule to carry large burdens, but that doesn't mean that I don't care about giving my mule good food or a nice blanket or whatever.

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so what does the "intended purpose of a christian" have to do with anything. The reference to the OT was to get you to admit that the God of the bible cares more about us than just exactly what has to do with getting closer to him. If that is the case. IF that biblical God love us, like you loving your pack mule, why would He not care if we were doing well financially or not making ends meet and living in desperation to get by? Or even living paycheck to paycheck barely getting by but not living as fully as we could if we were to live by faith and declare victory in our life? Not saying declaring victory means climbing the corporate ladder and making boatloads of money. But being in charge of your financial security and future.

Perhaps you feel God calls you to live without any financial security and depend solely on His providing like many do, but if you really want to be secure for your family, why is that a distraction from what real "Christianity" is? Why is Joel telling you that you can get out of your rut and be victorious in your career and life by putting all your trust in God and living as the bible instructs us to live and speaking blessings in to reality?