Going to spin off this thread from the hell thread, because I want to discuss the topics above. Let me first say that hell in the absence of free will is the most awful theology I can think of. God creates someone a certain way, gives them no freedom to change, and then tortures them forever. There is no rationalization that makes that any less terrible than it sounds.

I would also argue that the mere presence of hell negates free will. The reason is coercion. The colloquial saying "would you do it if you had a gun pointed at your head" is a reference to this. Threats of pain, violence, and suffering are common used to coerce people to do things they would not otherwise do. The worse the threat, the stronger the coercion and the less someone is likely to follow their own will in any situation. In other words, coercion causes people follow the will of the person threatening violence and not follow their own will.

People can also be coerced with rewards. If I offered a million dollars to you for punching a stranger in the face, many people would do it. They don't want to, and they wouldn't just randomly punch a stranger in the face, but they will for a million dollars. I am coercing them to follow my will with an obscene reward.

Now hell is the ultimate threat and heaven is the ultimate reward. Hell is an eternity of unthinkable pain without any possiblity of escape. As a method of coercion, it makes the whole "gun to the head" situation almost laughably tame. If it is real, then it is the single most coercive tactic that can be ever be used, to the point that people would do anything to avoid it. They would readily check their will at the door to avoid hell, and no one would blame them. Now match this with the reward of heaven, and the "free will choice" becomes the most coercive decision imaginable. There is literally no room for free will in that "choice." Anyone who "chooses" hell in that scenario must be fundamentally incapable of "choosing" heaven.

So regardless of how you look at it, the mere existence of hell destroys any notion that free will actually exists. Then you end of with a God that creates and predestines people to eternal torture.

I've never taken free will to mean free from coercion. Coercion is just influence and everything we do is influenced. Heaven is coercion to make "the right choice." Under your construct it seems free will doesn't exist. There are no truly free choices.

I don't even think free will exists though.

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Under your construct it seems free will doesn't exist. There are no truly free choices.

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My post only discusses free will in the context of hell. I do believe in free will, and I might go into more detail on this thread later. It's a pretty big topic, though.

Heaven is a place where you worship God, submit to his Lordship, and sing his praises forever. Ask any atheist or Christian if this is desirable.

Hell is a place where you worship yourself, you are the center of attention, and you are occupied with yourself forever. Ask any atheist or Christian if this is desirable.

Both is simply eternity of the choices you make today.

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Heaven is a place where you worship God, submit to his Lordship, and sing his praises forever. Ask any atheist or Christian if this is desirable.

Hell is a place where you worship yourself, you are the center of attention, and you are occupied with yourself forever. Ask any atheist or Christian if this is desirable.

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Using these definitions of heaven and hell I could certainly support the presence of free will. Most people are pretty insistent on the whole "eternal torture" aspect.

Ah yes, if you don't find worshiping God desirable then you must worship yourself. A silly and false binary choice. Obviously it's the selfish atheists who worship themselves. Not the religious who think God made them in his image and designed the universe with them in mind and killed his son for them so that they may have eternal bliss in a heavenly kingdom designed for them.

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Heaven is a place where you worship God, submit to his Lordship, and sing his praises forever. Ask any atheist or Christian if this is desirable.

Hell is a place where you worship yourself, you are the center of attention, and you are occupied with yourself forever. Ask any atheist or Christian if this is desirable.

Both is simply eternity of the choices you make today.

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Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens

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So regardless of how you look at it, the mere existence of hell destroys any notion that free will actually exists. Then you end of with a God that creates and predestines people to eternal torture.

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Can the same be said for the mere existence of heaven? How can we have free will rather than be coerced into falling in line in order to get the reward of eternal bliss?

I still think it is entirely possible that heaven and hell are more akin to descriptions as to the consequences of actions, as opposed to promises of what God will do.

The idea of eternity is hard. I don't know why anyone would base their life decisions around their capability to contemplate this subject.

I think you could make the argument that the presence of heaven is coercive. I think that is one reason why we don't have certain knowledge of heaven. Just the certainty of heaven's existence would preclude free will, at least for any person not already headed there.

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I think you could make the argument that the presence of heaven is coercive. I think that is one reason why we don't have certain knowledge of heaven. Just the certainty of heaven's existence would preclude free will, at least for any person not already headed there.

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If I've gotten the gist of your posts correctly, you think Calvinism is a horrible theology (as do I) and don't believe in a literal hell. I'd guess you were an annihilationist but correct me if I'm wrong.

Do you believe God could have created the universe in a manner other than the one we experience, and do you believe He knew who would and would not choose to follow Him prior to creation?

One last question: if you don't believe in Hell, what exactly is it that you need to be saved from?

I've never seen a convincing argument on how free will can possibly exist given an omnipotent and omniscient creator. However while by legal definitions you can't have a real choice if under strong coercion (like the gun to the head example), there's no real reason to think any deity would operate using similar definitions of free will.

The infinite coercion argument doesn't really negate free will to me. Under those conditions you may not be free to do what you want, but you're still free to will what you want. To me, that's what free will seems to be about.

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I've never seen a convincing argument on how free will can possibly exist given an omnipotent and omniscient creator. However while by legal definitions you can't have a real choice if under strong coercion (like the gun to the head example), there's no real reason to think any deity would operate using similar definitions of free will.

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If I TiVo whose line is it anyway, did I negate the actors free will since I know exactly what they'll do every time I watch the taped version?

Never mind.

Annihilationism is pretty close, but I believe in conditional immortailty. I reject the notion that all humans inherently have an eternal aspect, since God's eternal aspect is one of the things that makes Him God. But it works out to pretty much the same thing in the end.

Second, I think God made the universe according to the same rules by which it now operates. So I would believe that a rock is 1 billion years old before I believe that it is 6000 years old but only appears 1 billion years old.

Third, I believe God gives everyone the choice to follow Him and doesn't choose for us.

Lastly, we are saved from the finality of death and will live a second, eternal life.

While God may use a different definition of free will, I can't imagine it would be less nuanced or sophisticated than ours. If our cobbled together assortment of laws can recognize the influence of coercion on free will and responsibility for our actions, I bet God figures these things in as well.

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I've never seen a convincing argument on how free will can possibly exist given an omnipotent and omniscient creator. However while by legal definitions you can't have a real choice if under strong coercion (like the gun to the head example), there's no real reason to think any deity would operate using similar definitions of free will.

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If I TiVo whose line is it anyway, did I negate the actors free will since I know exactly what they'll do every time I watch the taped version?

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If you also wrote the damn script, then yes... you have negated the actor's free will. He will do as you have written.

So you're saying an omnipotent Creator couldn't create free will? It's not exactly the 4 sided triangle problem.

To me the key is equipoise. If your desire to follow God is equal to your desire to not follow God, then you have a free choice. As an example, I could offer you one ounce of gold, or today's market value of one ounce of gold in US dollars. The consequences of each choice would still be different, but at this moment the options are equally weighted. It is entirely up to your will to choose which you prefer.

Where does it say that God wrote the script?

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Where does it say that God wrote the script?

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Sigh. I feel like we have one of these arguments every couple months or so. It always ends in an impasse.

It is my contention than an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God wouldn't have created the universe as we see it. I don't pretend I can refute Platinga, but I don't see how God can gift free will simply by declaring it so. God still had the option to create us differently than He did. I will admit, however, that it is more difficult to argue the utter absurdity of it all when someone doesn't believe in a literal hell.

I don't believe in double predestination, and am not a card carrying Calvinist, but certainly see the logical presuppositions upon the foundations of Reformed Theology. Essentially, without the Sovereignty of God and his drawing of all those who will eventually repent and believe, nobody is going to choose God (John 6:44).

Whether free will exists, I don't know. I do know man has the responsibility to repent and believe upon the finished work of Christ for salvation. Romans 9:22 states, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction".

Lastly, even if free will does exist, we have to accept the fact that God in HIS perfect omniscience foreknew all those who would inherit eternal life and all those who would die in their sin without a Savior and spent eternity in the lake of fire. Yet, he still created the vessels of wrath knowing they would die in their sin and be judged accordingly. This is not an easy doctrine to embrace and should make all the redeemed absolutely overwhelmed with gratitude that they have been saved by the grace alone, when they were dead in their trespasses.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28

God strategically had us procreate in a way that resembles a humanity that doesn't believe in him

I'll give a short explanation of what I mean by omnipotence and omniscience negating free will. Let's say God decides he wants to create a new person. We'll call him Bob. Let's further say that God, in his omniscience, knows that Bob's existence can be accurately described in how he responds to five choices with possibilities A, B, and C. So God goes to create Bob and realizes, before Bob even takes his first breath, that he will choose A-A-A-A-A. Being omnipotent, God could easily change Bob to choose B-B-B-B-B or C-C-C-C-C or any other variation he wants. But no matter what God does, he knows Bob's choices before Bob is even created. God can't not know Bob's choices or he isn't truly omniscient. Random chance is, by definition, eliminated. Bob is exactly who and what God meant to create, no matter what choices he makes. Perhaps he has the illusion of free will, but not the reality of it.

And yes, I know the example has been vastly simplified. But an omnipotent and omniscient God can handle a billion choices and events as easily as we can handle five simple ones.

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Where does it say that God wrote the script?

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Omniscience + creator = author = writer

It's funny these issues only come about due to theists insistence on the literal omniscient. If God is merely just vastly knowing rather than all knowing the problem goes away. And if you look at the bible, these superlatives are not clearly defined and often god appears limited in power or knowledge.

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I'll give a short explanation of what I mean by omnipotence and omniscience negating free will. Let's say God decides he wants to create a new person. We'll call him Bob. Let's further say that God, in his omniscience, knows that Bob's existence can be accurately described in how he responds to five choices with possibilities A, B, and C. So God goes to create Bob and realizes, before Bob even takes his first breath, that he will choose A-A-A-A-A. Being omnipotent, God could easily change Bob to choose B-B-B-B-B or C-C-C-C-C or any other variation he wants. But no matter what God does, he knows Bob's choices before Bob is even created. God can't not know Bob's choices or he isn't truly omniscient. Random chance is, by definition, eliminated. Bob is exactly who and what God meant to create, no matter what choices he makes. Perhaps he has the illusion of free will, but not the reality of it.

And yes, I know the example has been vastly simplified. But an omnipotent and omniscient God can handle a billion choices and events as easily as we can handle five simple ones.

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Why does God have to directly create Bob? Is there room for an omniscient God in a universe where the creation of who Bob is is a product of chance?

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Maybe you can articulate to us why you base you life off a demonstrably false god. It's obviously crazy and ignorant.

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My faith is actually very rational, and my life is better and more fulfilling because of it.

Maybe you can articulate why you spend the vast majority of your energy creating false personalities on an anonymous message board with the sole purpose of trying to tear other people down?

From what I see of you, you live a sad and despicable life, have serious self-worth or anger issues, and some sort of anti-social psychosis that prevents you from acting in a civil way when you are online.

If you want to have a civil discussion with me, I am all for it, but you are going to have to learn some manners before you are worth my time.

I see your point. God creates someone and knows the choices they will make from the point they are created. Doesn't that just mean that God made the choices based on how He created the person? However, I think my point above still stands. God knows the person, and He can make sure that all the choices are equally appealing to that person at the time the choice is made. The only thing that determines the decision at that point is the will of the person. To God, our will is predictable, but that doesn't make it less free.

On my earlier thread about prayer, someone mentioned a view of God's omniscience that I found interesting. According to this view, God knows all the consequences and outcomes of every possible permutation of choices from the beginning until the end. However, He doesn't know the results of the choices themselves. He would still be omniscient, because He knows the "future" regardless of which choice is made. However, until the choice is made He wouldn't know "which" future was going to happen. Not saying I ascribe, but it is interesting in the context of the current conversation.

Buster, the problem is bigger than just Bob. The universe itself which led to Bob's existence is also a creation of an omnipotent and omniscient God and faces the exact same problem which I laid out in my example. If God is omnipotent and omniscient then we must conclude that the universe and everything in it exist exactly how God wants it to. He had to have known before "Let there be light" exactly how everything would play out and still chose to create the world exactly how it is.

Ramblin, the part you're missing is that the will of the person is also a creation of an omnipotent and omniscient God. You could almost treat our will or character like programming. Given a certain choice we will choose one way or the other based on our will/programming. But given that God created that will/programming we are again shown that we just have the illusion of free will. And you can't be omniscient and not know some things, that goes against the very meaning of the word. Like Aggrad said you could call God vastly knowledgeable and the problem goes away, but if you insist on omniscient there are consequences.

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Ramblin, the part you're missing is that the will of the person is also a creation of an omnipotent and omniscient God. You could almost treat our will or character like programming. Given a certain choice we will choose one way or the other based on our will/programming

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Yet I contend that a creator can create independent will. All you need is the ability and desire to do the opposite of whatever God's will is in a situation. God doesn't program people to oppose His will. Otherwise He would be willing someone to oppose His will, which doesn't even make sense. He could program people with the ability and desire to both do His will and go against His will. Then the person can make a self-determined choice.

Even people are trying to do create free will with the drive for artificial intelligence, and humans have neither the knowledge or power of God. We are trying to create machines with the ability for self-determination, but you contend that an omnscient, omnipotent God couldn't pull it off?

That said, I think Christianity completely falls apart without free will. Without free will, we are by definition doing whatever God wants us to do at any given time. If God "programs" you to do bad things without an ability to change, then you doing bad things would be God's inviolable will. It would then make no sense for God to punish you for doing His will or reward other people for doing His will by doing good things. The concept of sin would evaporate, because no one could act out against God's will. Given the option of no free will versus some limitation on God's omniscience, I would believe the latter every time.

However, I don't think they are in conflict. I would use another example. Think about Lorne Michaels watching a recorded SNL skit that includes Jimmy Fallon. Lorne knows from the beginning how it should go, he was there for the performance, and he has the recording now. He has past, present and future knowledge of the event, and complete control of the entire process. However, the event is live, and Jimmy breaks character and starts laughing. Lorne can't stop this from happening, even though it goes against the script and is not the part Jimmy is supposed to play. In retrospect, it is obvious that Jimmy would break character and laugh, and on some level Lorne knew this would happen even before the skit was written. However, Lorne did not want it to happen and would rather it didn't, but it was an exercise of Jimmy's will. It was a live show, so no do-overs.

There is room for belief in an omniscient God without forcing perfect determinism. This is a false dichotomy, in my opinion.

My opinion is that there is an overarching will of God that you have no power to frustrate, but that most of the things that happen on the planet are chance / chaos. Otherwise, I have no answer on why there would be, for example, children born with birth defects.

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Otherwise, I have no answer on why there would be, for example, children born with birth defects.

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You mean, other than the possibility they weren't created by anything that cared about them?

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Otherwise, I have no answer on why there would be, for example, children born with birth defects.

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You mean, other than the possibility they weren't created by anything that cared about them?

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Is it possible in your mind to believe in a deity that created mankind, without believing that each individual born had DNA that was hand picked by that deity?