Booboo: you failed to address my statements. Does saving lives justify any action?

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I agree with what beer baron said.

I think that retired Ag refuses to say that the vast majority of our service folk who have nothing to do with torture are at least somewhat equivalent to the Taliban/North Vietnamese maybe I am reading you wrong?

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That's nice that you agree with what I said, but I only said it to point out how wrong you were about Retired's stance.

Boney,

1) No saving lives does NOT justify ANY action. But certain actions are Justified. It depends on the situation.

2) Christians do not think bombing an abortion clinic is justified. There are other ways- such as changing peoples hearts, change the laws to reduce abortions, or John Brown who killed others during a raid during Civil war time trying to end slavery - this was not justified. However there is the example I provided of police killing a school shooter before more innocent lives are taken this is justified.

3) The situations are different- Abortion and slavery (were legal in the USA) and killing a few people will not solve anything. By killing the school shooter- the situation is ended and lives are saved.

4) God is the just judge, he can read men's hearts, so he knows the intent with why we do things.

Baron, I was wrong about retired ag's stance on our military in general due to miscommunication and admitted as much.

And booboo, great post. This is not nearly as cut and dried as presented by some on here. And with that I will call it a night.

Jesus loves all of us sinners.

Peace

As I see it RetiredAg is made in a completely different mold than myself and that is ok, because God makes us all different. There are lots of way to pray and carry out our love. My ways are not his ways but yet we are still brothers in Christ.

Another great post.

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Boney,

1) No saving lives does NOT justify ANY action. But certain actions are Justified. It depends on the situation.

2) Christians do not think bombing an abortion clinic is justified. There are other ways- such as changing peoples hearts, change the laws to reduce abortions, or John Brown who killed others during a raid during Civil war time trying to end slavery - this was not justified. However there is the example I provided of police killing a school shooter before more innocent lives are taken this is justified.

3) The situations are different- Abortion and slavery (were legal in the USA) and killing a few people will not solve anything. By killing the school shooter- the situation is ended and lives are saved.

4) God is the just judge, he can read men's hearts, so he knows the intent with why we do things.

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i don't think we should confuse the issue with unrelated theoreticals. Essentially, you are ok with torture because it saves lives, as noted in a previous post...so lets just focus on that, since that's the topic at hand.

Since you say it "depends on the situation", then please elaborate on why you include torture in this list of justified actions.

Did you folks know more news media folks have been voluntarily water boarded than terrorists?

And Dr. Marshall's interview on Megyn Kelly's show was very enlightening. Shocking that he did not even get a chance to testify before the committee.

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i don't think we should confuse the issue with unrelated theoreticals. Essentially, you are ok with torture because it saves lives, as noted in a previous post...so lets just focus on that, since that's the topic at hand.

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Not to mention, comparing the use of torture to an active shooter situation is apples and oranges. And, if you are going to claim torture saves lives, then you must be able to support that claim with actual evidence that it saves lives.

I was thinking about this last night, and was wondering what those that support the use of torture would say about those that are tortured that don't give up any actionable intelligence. I figure they may say that the person is just withholding the information, but how do they know the person even has the intelligence that they are seeking? You are torturing human beings because they might have information that you think might save lives.

Of course, getting back to the original topic, this is entirely incompatible with Christ's teachings.

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Did you folks know more news media folks have been voluntarily water boarded than terrorists?

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This has no bearing on the morality of waterboarding. Not sure what the point of this question is.

I think it has a lot to do with the issue. The question becomes is water boarding true torture?

All Navy Seals do it. Media folks VOLUNTEER to do it. Is it Christ like for people to administer water boarding to these folks? If they ask for it?

And do most people volunteer for true torture?

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Did you folks know more news media folks have been voluntarily water boarded than terrorists?

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So? How many people have to be tortured before it becomes not ok to torture? ISIS has murdered more Muslims than it has westerners, but that doesn't make the beheadings of all those British/American journalists any less atrocious.

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I think it has a lot to do with the issue. The question becomes is water boarding true torture?

All Navy Seals do it. Media folks VOLUNTEER to do it. Is it Christ like for people to administer water boarding to these folks? If they ask for it?

And do most people volunteer for true torture?

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Yes, Navy Seals do it. You know, in case they are captured and tortured. The fact that media members voluntarily undergo waterboarding, to show the true nature of waterboarding, does not mean it isn't torture. The ones I've seen have been done to shine a light on what waterboarding actually is.

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Is it Christ like for people to administer water boarding to these folks? If they ask for it?

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The people tortured by the CIA didn't ask for it. It wasn't voluntary.

Of course, the US considered it to be torture when waterboarding of US soldiers was included in the war crimes charges against Japanese officers. Americans would scream for heads on platters if the Taliban waterboarded a US soldier, but we wear the right costume, so it's all good.

The reason why the CIA loves waterboarding is because it has 100% the psychological effect of torture with a low likelihood of causing permanent physical damage and does not cause visible damage like a traditional act of torture would.


Let's think about this for a moment. If an individual is left mentally scarred and ends up with disorders such as MDD and PTSD that they struggle with the rest of their life, is it torture? That is one of the things missing from this discussion. Specifically, we need to discuss the outcomes for the tortured individual of whatever actions are used on the individual.

One more note: we seem to be focusing on waterboarding, as if that were the only thing being done to these people. Forcing people to stay awake for more than a week at a time. Forced rectal hydration. Forcing people with broken feet or legs to stand in stress positions for extended periods of time. Ice water baths. Waterboarding to the point of unresponsiveness. Shackling a man to a wall in nothing but a sweatshirt, only to find him dead of hypothermia the next morning. The psychological and physical damage done to some of these men is just sad.

The question a Christian, or anyone for that matter, should ask themselves is could they do this to a person they truly love? If you can't do this to a person that you truly love, then seeing that we are called to love everyone, how can you justify such treatment?

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Did you folks know more news media folks have been voluntarily water boarded than terrorists?

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This has no bearing on the morality of waterboarding. Not sure what the point of this question is.

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Agree it has no bearing. However, for the sake of your point, Christopher Hitchens volunteered and did a 180 about whether it is torture or not. He completely changed his position on torture based on his volunteering to be waterboarded.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808

What a wuss.

Macarthur,
Thanks for the article. I had not seen that yet.

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i don't think we should confuse the issue with unrelated theoreticals. Essentially, you are ok with torture because it saves lives, as noted in a previous post...so lets just focus on that, since that's the topic at hand.

Since you say it "depends on the situation", then please elaborate on why you include torture in this list of justified actions.

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1) I focus on killing, because the minute we agree that it is ok to kill in certain circumstances then. you can agree to using unpleasant means to extract information- which we call torture. To me killing someone is worst than making them feel like they are drowning for 20 minutes.

2) I was ok with A KNOWN terrorist- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed being uncomfortable, so we could extract information. I am not a torture expert- use the most effective means to gathering the information. If you don't want to use water- boarding- I am ok with that, but another unpleasant means will be used to gather the information.

3) As I have said many times war is nasty. All means should be taken to avoid it, but once you go to War you go to win. There is no nice war. During war- people die and things get broken, we try and fool ourselves that there are nice wars- there are not nice wars.

4) When you look through history you see examples of how war brings peace- see how effective Sherman was on ending Civil War with his brutal march through the south, see Sherman Zero tolerance policy on the American Plains Indians, See dropping of the A- Bomb. The result was prompt peace.

5) I like studying Abraham Lincoln, he was religious man, he did not want war but once war was inevitable Lincoln eventually choose generals there were brutal and effective. Then Lincoln's plan was reconcillation with the South.

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1) I focus on killing, because the minute we agree that it is ok to kill in certain circumstances then. you can agree to using unpleasant means to extract information- which we call torture. To me killing someone is worst than making them feel like they are drowning for 20 minutes.

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I certainly don't agree on the initial point. But, yes killing someone is worse than torturing them, but that doesn't make the torture any less egregious.

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2) I was ok with A KNOWN terrorist- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed being uncomfortable, so we could extract information. I am not a torture expert- use the most effective means to gathering the information. If you don't want to use water- boarding- I am ok with that, but another unpleasant means will be used to gather the information.

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Torture is an ineffective means of gathering information. Also, you are assuming he has the information you want, but that is not a guarantee. So it is very possible you are torturing a human being for information he does not possess.

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3) As I have said many times war is nasty. All means should be taken to avoid it, but once you go to War you go to win. There is no nice war. During war- people die and things get broken, we try and fool ourselves that there are nice warsthere is no politically correct or nice war. But when you look through history you see examples of how war brings peace- see how effective Sherman was on ending Civil War with his brutal march through the south, see Sherman Zero tolerance policy on plains Indians, See dropping of the A- Bomb. The result was prompt peace.

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Sherman was a murderer. Nothing more. Dropping the atomic bomb was wrong. None of this attempt to rationalize evil is compatible w/ how Christ commanded we treat others.

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4) I like studying Abraham Lincoln, he was religious man, he did not want war but once war was inevitable Lincoln eventually choose generals there were brutal and effective. Then Lincoln's plan was reconcillation with the South.

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So the ends justify the means? Got it. Just please don't confuse that w/ being compatible w/ Christ's teachings.

It is dumbfounding that this is even a debate among Christians. Torture is entirely incompatible w/ Christian behavior. And nobody has even bothered answering my request that they provide one single teaching of Christ in which torture could be justified as "acceptable". We aren't called to live as the world lives. We are called to a higher nature, and torture is 100% incompatible with that.

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1) I focus on killing, because the minute we agree that it is ok to kill in certain circumstances then. you can agree to using unpleasant means to extract information- which we call torture. To me killing someone is worst than making them feel like they are drowning for 20 minutes.

2) I was ok with A KNOWN terrorist- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed being uncomfortable, so we could extract information. I am not a torture expert- use the most effective means to gathering the information. If you don't want to use water- boarding- I am ok with that, but another unpleasant means will be used to gather the information.

3) As I have said many times war is nasty. All means should be taken to avoid it, but once you go to War you go to win. There is no nice war. During war- people die and things get broken, we try and fool ourselves that there are nice wars- there are not nice wars.

4) When you look through history you see examples of how war brings peace- see how effective Sherman was on ending Civil War with his brutal march through the south, see Sherman Zero tolerance policy on the American Plains Indians, See dropping of the A- Bomb. The result was prompt peace.

5) I like studying Abraham Lincoln, he was religious man, he did not want war but once war was inevitable Lincoln eventually choose generals there were brutal and effective. Then Lincoln's plan was reconcillation with the South.

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Always sort of liked the version of Christianity you created booboo. Until now.

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1) I focus on killing, because the minute we agree that it is ok to kill in certain circumstances then. you can agree to using unpleasant means to extract information- which we call torture. To me killing someone is worst than making them feel like they are drowning for 20 minutes.

2) I was ok with A KNOWN terrorist- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed being uncomfortable, so we could extract information. I am not a torture expert- use the most effective means to gathering the information. If you don't want to use water- boarding- I am ok with that, but another unpleasant means will be used to gather the information.

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I think you underestimate the psychological effect of those 20 minutes. Considering the suicide rates of those who experience PTSD and other psychological scarring, one can presume that they feel that being killed is better than living.

Retired's question still remains: If we are called to love our enemies, do you consider these tactics as loving to KSM?

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3) As I have said many times war is nasty. All means should be taken to avoid it, but once you go to War you go to win. There is no nice war. During war- people die and things get broken, we try and fool ourselves that there are nice warsthere is no politically correct or nice war. But when you look through history you see examples of how war brings peace- see how effective Sherman was on ending Civil War with his brutal march through the south, see Sherman Zero tolerance policy on plains Indians, See dropping of the A- Bomb. The result was prompt peace.

4) I like studying Abraham Lincoln, he was religious man, he did not want war but once war was inevitable Lincoln eventually choose generals there were brutal and effective. Then Lincoln's plan was reconcillation with the South.

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I'm having a hard time reconciling this from a Christian perspective. Under this logic, you would be pro-genocide in Africa. As soon as 1 tribe obliterated the other, there would be peace.

See Catholic Catechism which provides more information:

Catchism- Respect for Life & Legit Self Defense

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

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See Catholic Catechism which provides more information:

Catchism- Respect for Life & Legit Self Defense

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

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Don't really care what the Catholics have to say on it. I believe your church is wrong, nor do I believe their views line up with the dominant views among Christians in the first 150-300 years after Christ. Nonviolence in Early Christian Thought.

But, that's an entirely different issue. The use of torture had nothing to do w/ self-defense. It was ineffective, and none has provided any evidence that it saved lives.

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See Catholic Catechism which provides more information:

Catchism- Respect for Life & Legit Self Defense

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

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Torture is not a legitimate defense.

Retired and Dirt,

Do you agree with Catholic teaching- with what I posted above?

Torture is not self-defense. Self-defense occurs in a situation where there is a clear, direct threat to one's life (or one's people if we're talking about a nation). There's nothing wrong with Christian Just War Theory, imo. Torture is not part of that.

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Retired and Dirt,

Do you agree with Catholic teaching- with what I posted above?

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No, but that's an entirely different issue that has been discussed ad nauseum on this board. What you posted has nothing to do with torture.

Also, do you believe it is possible to love your enemies, as Christ said, and use theses tactics against them?

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2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

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This is off topic but has it ever crossed your mind, have you ever considered even for a moment that perhaps we are the "unjust aggressors?"

It's so difficult to know where to begin with these blind jingoists.

booboo - Paragraphs 2207 & 2298 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

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Respect for bodily integrity

2297 Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately is gravely against justice and charity. Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.

2298 In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors.

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Please note that torture is addressed in the same paragraph as terrorism. Paragraph 2298 IMO removes torture as a method of legitimate defense even against an unjust aggressor.

Jesus was tortured to end all torture

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I grieve. And I'm disgusted. It is enough to make you want to quit church. It seems that going to church exposes people to bad moral influences. But I know that the influences that leads Christians in America to support torture have nothing to do with Jesus and everything to do with the propaganda absorbed from politicians and partisan pundits that have a greater impact on a lot of church-goers that the Gospel of love.

Unfortunately, too many Christians in American listen more carefully to people like Bill O'Reilly than they do to Jesus. O'Reilly, who often announces that he is a Christian, boldly asserted that torture is "morally correct." Why? "It is morally correct to protect innocent lives from barbarians." No one disputes that innocent lives should be protected. At issue is how people are to be protected. A good end does not justify every means possible, at least not if Jesus matters.

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But it seems that lifting up the ominous images of 9/11 and repeating warnings about the threatening nature of radical Islamists is a sufficient argument for torture. "We have to protect ourselves and do whatever it takes." Forget Jesus. Forget, "Do not repay anyone evil for evil" (Rom. 12:17-18; 1 Peter 3:9). Torture is acceptable because, as O'Reilly has said, "Bad things happen in war." And in the war on terror, whatever bad is done by the U.S. is small potatoes compared to the evil of them.

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Jesus was never one who pressed the point of nails into anyone else's flesh. Jesus was on the receiving end of the nails. And we can't legitimately claim to follow him if we insist on doing "whatever it takes" to someone else in order to avoid finding ourselves on the sharp end of the nails. As Jesus said, "Take up your cross and follow me" (Matt. 16:24).

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4) When you look through history you see examples of how war brings peace- see how effective Sherman was on ending Civil War with his brutal march through the south, see Sherman Zero tolerance policy on the American Plains Indians, See dropping of the A- Bomb. The result was prompt peace.

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Yet how many innocents perished in these actions? The answer to that question leads me to believe that these actions grossly failed to meet the criteria for just war.

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Why? "It is morally correct to protect innocent lives from barbarians." No one disputes that innocent lives should be protected. At issue is how people are to be protected. A good end does not justify every means possible, at least not if Jesus matters.

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More importantly, we are the barbarians slaughtering innocent life.

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But, that's an entirely different issue. The use of torture had nothing to do w/ self-defense. It was ineffective, and none has provided any evidence that it saved lives.

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Retired,

1) If it does not work, then I agree with you. It should not be used because it does not work. But my bet is it works, otherwise they would not use it.

2) You are a Pacifist, my bet is if you saw innocent people getting killed, you would probably drop down and pray and become a martyer. You would not employ any self defense and this is ok. But what I think you miss is that others are not like you and they are called to be Protectors/ Guardians (like St. Michael the Arch Angel). The Police, Firemen, Military. Their role is to protect us.

3) The bible is filled with battles of good confronting evil- in OT battle, the angelic battles in the book of Revelation, you have Jesus parable about a king preparing for war, you have Jesus not telling centurions to give up their ways. My guess- is Jesus wants peace and love, but he knows the practicalities of human nature, Some evil people will only be stopped with Force.

4) I think the use of War, Killing & Torture (unplesant information gatherig) all boils down to everything else in the bible like, sex, money, drinking, it is how you use it. Why are you doing it? There is nothing wrong with using legit self defense.