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Reconcile yours with His teaching on shepherding, specifically as it would pertain to protecting His flock. You're as bad as a southern baptist preacher that latches on to one verse and delivers a sermon on it.

Your reluctance to act on others' behalf would indicate your contentment. We're you not content with all circumstances you would do something.

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You better be giving all your disposable income away to the poor, if you are going to be logically consistent.

Your failure to do so would indicate your contentment with others being in poverty.

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So those who are OK with "torture" have to die to act in accordance with the morality of some Christians.

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Sorry, this statement has me confused.

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Sorry but that's not the real world works. And God doesn't either.

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Christ told us how we are to treat others, even our enemies. Torture, or whatever cutesy name politicians give it, is not compatible with that. Saying that it is not how the real world works doesn't change the teachings of Christ.

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As I have already said, if some animal had one of my kids or wife I would do anything. And I mean anything.

And I would pray for them and me afterwards.

Sorry

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It's ok if you feel this way. Just admit that that's where your beliefs stop.

You don't have to apologize to us.

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Loaded words, loaded arguments, and high horses aplenty in this thread. If all human life has value and torture can save it, is it worth doing? How cruel would you have to be to be happy or content with others dying needlessly when you could prevent it? Would you even be able to say that you value human life? What is your arbitrary line for return?

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I disagree with your line of thinking here. In my opinion, you place the sin on yourself, instead of the person committing it.

Again, I ask you...removing all the rationalization that confuses the situation: Are you ok with intentionally harming another human being, maybe even permanently, to get whatever you want. Don't hide behind some supposed-altruistic end goal.

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Rationalization? Motive provides clarity, reason for action. Not confusion. What kind of stupid philosophical debate are you even angling for? Isn't motive key to the Christian? Isn't he told God knows his heart? If motivation was irrelevant to the Christian then why does God seem to care about it so much?

If you're asking me if I'm a sociopath that believes in torturing people just because, the answer is no. However if I am called to protect widows and orphans and I let hundreds die because I don't want to torture, I still have to face God and tell him I failed. Perhaps that doesn't frighten you as much as it does me. Either way we all go before Him sinful. The conceit and pretentiousness here is overwhelming though.

Retired Ag, would you be in favor of "torture" or any other of your "non Christ behaviors" if a psycho was holding one of your family members hostage?

RA believes in standing in the way and asking them nicely to stop. This thread is that behavior... just on a larger scale.

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If you're asking me if I'm a sociopath that believes in torturing people just because, the answer is no. However if I am called to protect widows and orphans and I let hundreds die because I don't want to torture, I still have to face God and tell him I failed.

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Do you not realize that one can protect others without using violence? You seem to be under the impression that causing harm to others is the only way to protect the innocent, but Christ was kind of big on that whole self-sacrificial love, for friend and enemy.

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Perhaps that doesn't frighten you as much as it does me. Either way we all go before Him sinful. The conceit and pretentiousness here is overwhelming though.

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What conceit and pretentiousness? Because we believe torturing other human beings is incompatible with our faith in Christ?

Please show me anything that Christ said that would allow for the torture of other human beings, even if you believe it was to save others. Of course, this doesn't even address the fact that nearly a quarter of those the CIA tortured were cleared, or that torture doesn't produce reliable results anyways.

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Retired Ag, would you be in favor of "torture" or any other of your "non Christ behaviors" if a psycho was holding one of your family members hostage?

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No. I would not be in favor of using violence, including torture.

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RA believes in standing in the way and asking them nicely to stop. This thread is that behavior... just on a larger scale.

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I believe in self-sacrificial love and non-violence. I believe Jesus was being serious when He said we are to love our enemies. I'm sorry that you feel the need to ridicule me for doing so, but as long as my views are consistent with Christ's teachings, I am fine with your ridicule.

More power to you for having that belief. If 100% of the world had it we'd be a better place. However, as we all know the world doesn't operate that way. I really only disagree with the portion where theoretically you'd endanger other people's lives by your inactions. Self sacrificial love is great on a 1-on-1 basis, but Christ didn't ask us to offer up innocent people's lives because we're afraid to act and do the right thing. Luckily these are just online discussions and none of us will ever really have to make these choices.

"In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;"

Was Christ not serious when He said these things?

RAB,

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I really only disagree with the portion where theoretically you'd endanger other people's lives by your inactions. Self sacrificial love is great on a 1-on-1 basis, but Christ didn't ask us to offer up innocent people's lives because we're afraid to act and do the right thing.

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I don't advocate inaction. I just don't support violence. Also, it has nothing to do w/ a fear of acting or doing "the right thing". The right thing is to treat others, regardless of the circumstances, as Christ instructed us to.

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If 100% of the world had it we'd be a better place.

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Yes, and as Christians, we should be live kingdom lives now to serve as a light to the world. How do you expect the world to see the benefits of Christ's love if Christians are rationalizing ways to not show it to the world?

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aggiegamecock,

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Reconcile yours with His teaching on shepherding, specifically as it would pertain to protecting His flock. You're as bad as a southern baptist preacher that latches on to one verse and delivers a sermon on it.

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I certainly believe we should protect others. I simply do not believe in the use of violence to do so. So, once again, please reconcile your position w/ Christ's teachings on how we are to treat others, specifically our enemies. What part of torture, or the cutesy "enhanced interrogations", is compatible w/ love of enemy?

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Your reluctance to act on others' behalf would indicate your contentment. We're you not content with all circumstances you would do something.

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You seem to be making the mistake of equating a refusal to use violence against others as a reluctance to act. That's simply not true.

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Why? You refuse to reconcile yours. How effective a shepherd you would be if you did not kill the wolf or the lion or bear!

There is a limit to what you can do. At some point when all other options have been exhausted you must be content with letting it play out because you will not cross a line. Were you not, you would act differently.

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Why? You refuse to reconcile yours. How effective a shepherd you would be if you did not kill the wolf or the lion or bear!

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My views are absolutely reconciled. You see what I'm saying as inaction, but it's not.

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There is a limit to what you can do.

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True. There's no limit to what God can do.

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At some point when all other options have been exhausted you must be content with letting it play out because you will not cross a line. Were you not, you would act differently.

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It's not a matter of being content with others dying. It's a matter of loving others as Christ loves us, including those that are attacking me or my loved ones. Instead of using violence, I'd rather lay my own life down to protect others. I don't see the cycle of violence as being productive in displaying God's love to the world.

Should we, as a nation, turned our cheek after Pearl Harbor?

aggiegamecock,
Can you please post the teaching of Christ that you believe my views are incompatible with?

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Should we, as a nation, turned our cheek after Pearl Harbor?

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I'd prefer to not have this conversation get derailed into my views on non-violence. I don't see what Pearl Harbor has to do w/ Christian support of torture.

That said, I will say that I believe Christians should respond non-violently in that situation.

So how do you respond non violently after thousands of innocents are killed whether it is 9/11, Pearl Harbor, etc.?

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So how do you respond non violently after thousands o innocents are killed whether it is 9/11, Pearl Harbor, etc.?

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What are you wanting to achieve with the response? For me, I believe the best response to violence is the allow the love of God to shine through us. I don't want revenge. I want the lost to accept Christ as their savior. What would my exact response be on Dec 8th? I hope it would be love, forgiveness and prayer.

I appreciate your consistency and earnestness of your beliefs retired ag.

Peace and Merry Christmas

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I appreciate your consistency and earnestness orof your beliefs retired ag.

Peace and Merry Christmas

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To you as well. Any time you wish to discuss these, or any issues, feel free to email me at christianpacifist@hotmail.com. I always enjoy sincere discussion.

And when Christ comes back and makes everything right we won't have to worry about this stuff.

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As I have already said, if some animal had one of my kids or wife I would do anything. And I mean anything.

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In the real world you don't know what people know. You don't often know how guilty they are or if they are guilty at all. When you torture them anyway they say whatever you want to hear. These guys were captured. They cant hurt us anymore.

If some guy has your kids, kill that mother ****er. He's an active threat. We don't get real life situations of hostages and some guy in our custody who we 100% know for sure has the information we want.

How you treat a human being who cannot hurt you says a lot about you.

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As I have already said, if some animal had one of my kids or wife I would do anything. And I mean anything.

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In the real world you don't know what people know. You don't often know how guilty they are or if they are guilty at all. When you torture them anyway they say whatever you want to hear. These guys were captured. They cant hurt us anymore.

If some guy has your kids, kill that mother ****er. He's an active threat. We don't get real life situations of hostages and some guy in our custody who we 100% know for sure has the information we want.

How you treat a human being who cannot hurt you says a lot about you.

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http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/torture-it-didnt-work-then-it-doesnt-work-now-9923288.html

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/homeland-security/226866-experienced-interrogator-torture-doesnt-work

As for the nonsense about loving your enemies so much that you do nothing while they attack your family, I never heard Jesus say to love your enemies more than your own children.

Jesus may have never said don't defend your own children but he certainly said don't defend your own life. He handed himself over for persecution and death. I think we have problems with turning the other cheek because we have world views that end with this world. Lot offered up his daughters. Abraham offered up his son. If anything isn't the bible a road map to sacrifice in this world? How many Christian martyrs have up their lives and continue to do so?

At what point should faith in God stop?

People were thrown into furnaces and God protected them?. They didn't say no, not me. Fleeing Egypt with overwhelming force in pursuit parents weren't bargaining for their children.

When Peter raised his sword to protect Christ he was stopped.

I hope I never find myself in a position where my kids are in danger or myself but the bible indicates faith will win out.

If something "bad" happens then God has other plans.

We are so weak in faith these days, myself included.

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The disconnect in that particular group is strange to witness.

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I agree and saddens me to see it. If such techniques are used by our enemies upon Americans there is outrage, however the same acts done in the name of our protection it becomes totally justified.

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Jesus may have never said don't defend your own children but he certainly said don't defend your own life. He handed himself over for persecution and death. I think we have problems with turning the other cheek because we have world views that end with this world. Lot offered up his daughters. Abraham offered up his son. If anything isn't the bible a road map to sacrifice in this world? How many Christian martyrs have up their lives and continue to do so?

At what point should faith in God stop?

People were thrown into furnaces and God protected them?. They didn't say no, not me. Fleeing Egypt with overwhelming force in pursuit parents weren't bargaining for their children.

When Peter raised his sword to protect Christ he was stopped.

I hope I never find myself in a position where my kids are in danger or myself but the bible indicates faith will win out.

If something "bad" happens then God has other plans.

We are so weak in faith these days, myself included.

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Lot also copulated with his daughters. And he gave them up to be raped in order to protect a couple of angels (great model there).

Abraham pursued the enemies of Sodom in the wars of the Four Kings against Five Kings and was blessed by Melchizedek after the victory.

The Israelites fought against the Babylonians before being taken into captivity where they were thrown in furnaces.

What about Joshua? Esther? David? Samson? Caleb?

It's absolutely ludicrous to suggest the Old Testament in any way commands or recommends pacifism.

What about the New?

Why was Peter carrying a sword to begin with?

When did Jesus command the Centurion to lay down his weapons?

Was Jesus' whip made out of cotton candy?

To everything there is a season - including a time to kill.

Self defense is certainly okay. The vast majority of what the military does has absolutely nothing to do with self defense. Self defense is warding off an eminent or ongoing attack. It doesn't include retribution or vengeance.

Just re read the thread and this is truly a tough subject.

I would disagree with the poster who said I would theoretically gain the world but lose my soul by doing anything to save my family.

I disagree as my soul and salvation are secure. Nothing can separate me from Christ.

Good discussion.

Peace

Aggrad08, thanks do refocusing the discussion a bit. This topic is torture of people the govt has captured, not self defense or pacifism in general.

I'm still honestly kind of baffled as to WHY so many evangelicals are fine with torture ( or "enhanced interrogation"). How do they rationalize it? A few responses in this thread had explained this a little bit, but still I'm not really sure.

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I'm still honestly kind of baffled as to WHY so many evangelicals are fine with torture ( or "enhanced interrogation").

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Personally I think it has a lot to do with politics being so intertwined with religion these days. For a lot of people, to be a good Christian is to be a good Republican, and vice versa. Rejecting something Republicans advocate for politically is weirdly seen as a sort of rejection of Christianity, even when the thing in question is decidedly un-Christlike.

You mean other than the fact that most evangelicals pick and choose the parts of the bible's teachings that they want to follow?

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You mean other than the fact that most evangelicals pick and choose the parts of the bible's teachings that they want to follow?

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I agree that they do, but that doesn't explain 'why torture?', of all things. There are plenty of things that are subject to valid debate and some real ambiguity, but this one seems like such a no-brainer to me. Seems like there's something else going on than being lazy/inconsistent bible readers.

Many of them believe in the hideous notion of American Exceptionalism. It's been reinforced by ignorant preachers in churches with the 'Murcan flag right next to the Christian flag. They can't begin to consider that we might be the bad guys.

On the other hand, lets not make this a Republican issue. Obama is a sadistic warmonger himself. Hillary is the reincarnation of Jezebel. No matter what lip service these "liberals" have given against torture, the practice - especially rendition - has continued and this administration has brought nobody to justice for it. Of course, these conservative Christian types fault Obama for not starting and expanding more wars than he has.

"Jesus and the American soldier, one died for your sins and the other for your freedom." Jingoistic imbeciles with no understanding of the world and no empathy in their black hearts.

I don't disagree with you. The torture has happened under both Democratic and Republican control and I wouldn't say Obama's any better than Bush on these issues. In fact, I think there's an argument that he's worse since his presidency is further removed from the hysteria of 9/11. If the first sentence in your second paragraph was directed toward me, that's not what I was going for. This thread is specifically about evangelicals, who happen to be overwhelmingly Republican politically. That's the only reason I mentioned the overlap between religion and politics the way I did.