Will Evangelicals Continue to Support Torture?

quote:

---

In 2009, the Pew Research Center released a headline-grabbing survey showing that 6 in 10 white evangelical Protestants supported the use of torture against suspected terrorists.

---

That is a shocking, and disturbing, number to me. My brother and I were talking about this the other day, and how we are both floored to see so many people that claim Christ also support the use of torture. It runs so counter to the very message of Christ that we both assumed it wasn't even an issue that would be up for debate within the church.

quote:

---

Will Evangelicals Continue to Support Torture?

quote:

---

In 2009, the Pew Research Center released a headline-grabbing survey showing that 6 in 10 white evangelical Protestants supported the use of torture against suspected terrorists.

---

That is a shocking, and disturbing, number to me. My brother and I were talking about this the other day, and how we are both floored to see so many people that claim Christ also support the use of torture. It runs so counter to the very message of Christ that we both assumed it wasn't even an issue that would be up for debate within the church.

---

Cafeteria Christians, I've heard them called. I feel like capital punishment falls into this same category. . . . And the fact that some the most religious people that I know are also the most avid hunters and gun enthusiasts.

This doesn't surprise me. It's a very Christian thing to accept grace for one's sins, while withholding grace for someone else's.

I find much of the rhetoric from evangelicals surrounding the recent racial crisis's to be equally deplorable.

quote:

---

Cafeteria Christians, I've heard them called. I feel like capital punishment falls into this same category. . . . And the fact that some the most religious people that I know are also the most avid hunters and gun enthusiasts.

---

I feel the same on the capital punishment thought. Life is either sacred or it's not. It can't be sacred when you want it to be, and not sacred when you don't.

I usually reserve cateteria christianity for knowing somethings wrong, and choosing it anyway (ie, picking and choosing which parts you want or not want). I think many who fall under this really don't know or understand what Scripture might speak into these issues. I think many of these people are just "infants or toddlers" on the Christianity spectrum.

I think the gun enthusiasm can be a red herring, as one can just like guns and hunting...and not human killing.

quote:

---

I find much of the rhetoric from evangelicals surrounding the recent racial crisis's to be equally deplorable.

---

Agreed. A startling lack of empathy.

You Cannot Be Christian and Support Torture

http://brianzahnd.com/2014/12/christian-support-torture/

quote:

---

And the fact that some the most religious people that I know are also the most avid hunters and gun enthusiasts.

---

How is this dumped with torture and capital punishment?


For the record, I'm not a hunter or even own a gun. Also strongly opposed to the use of torture and in almost all cases the use of capital punishment.

A4L,
Thanks. Read the Zahnd piece the other day. Excellent article on the subject.

quote:

---

You Cannot Be Christian and Support Torture

http://brianzahnd.com/2014/12/christian-support-torture/

---

Ugh, I hate statements like this. Yes you can. Being Christian isn't a ticket to perfectionism on your doctrine. You can be Christian and be wrong.

Frok,
Zahnd addressed the title in the article.

quote:

---

P.S. I have slightly edited the title and a couple of sentences. I took out a single letter. "You Cannot Be A Christian and Support Torture" is now "You Cannot Be Christian and Support Torture." I took out the "a". Evangelicalism has placed nearly all the emphasis on becoming a Christian, which ends up as "ticket to heaven" Christianity. But the emphasis needs to be on becoming Christian (Christlike). Can you support torture and go to heaven? Maybe. Can you support torture and be Christlike? No.

---

If you support the use of torture, you aren't being Christian. That's not to say you aren't actually a Christian. I had cringed when I first saw the title that said "You Cannot Be a Christian and Support Torture", but his edited title, I agree with.

quote:

---

quote:

---

And the fact that some the most religious people that I know are also the most avid hunters and gun enthusiasts.

---

How is this dumped with torture and capital punishment?


For the record, I'm not a hunter or even own a gun. Also strongly opposed to the use of torture and in almost all cases the use of capital punishment.

---

Agree with all this. Not sure how gun ownership/hunting relates to torture/capital punishment.

It is odd seeing the overlap between the highly religious and the "ho-hum" at best and "hell yeah!" at worst reactions to the torture story though.

quote:

---

It is odd seeing the overlap between the highly religious and the "ho-hum" at best and "hell yeah!" at worst reactions to the torture story though.

---

I recently discussed this issue w/ my dad. He has no issue with what the US government was doing to these detainees. I asked him how can he reconcile torture w/ Christ's teachings, and he said that he doesn't believe what the US was doing is "torture". I was floored, but I pointed out that whether or not we want to call it torture, the actions are still incompatible w/ the teachings of Christ.

Abhorring. From your previous posts though, I suspect you think any actions of any government are incompatible w/ the teachings of Christ...including their very existence.

quote:

---

Abhorring. From your previous posts though, I suspect you think any actions of any government are incompatible w/ the teachings of Christ...including their very existence.

---

What is abhorring? Also, my views on government and violence are no secret here.

quote:

---

What is abhorring?

---

The reports on the U.S. torturing prisoners.

quote:

---

quote:

---

What is abhorring?

---

The reports on the U.S. torturing prisoners.

---

Ah okay. That's what I thought.

Ask the politics board that's where you are most likely to find that combo.

For the record I don't see why religion should have anything to do with it. It's a disgusting opinion for any person.

quote:

---

It is odd seeing the overlap between the highly religious and the "ho-hum" at best and "hell yeah!" at worst reactions to the torture story though.

---

While I agree that much of the reaction to this story by religious is disturbing, not all the non-ho-hum reaction is of the the "hell-yeah" variety but on the other end of the spectrum as indicated by RetiredAg's and Aggie4Life's links as well as this and a number of others I've seen over the past week or so.

quote:

---

For the record I don't see why religion should have anything to do with it. It's a disgusting opinion for any person.

---

It doesn't.

However, the topic is on why there are a troubling number of adherents of a religion whos principle figure would be against torture, are for torture.

We aren't debating the merits of torture or anything.

quote:

---

quote:

---

It is odd seeing the overlap between the highly religious and the "ho-hum" at best and "hell yeah!" at worst reactions to the torture story though.

---

While I agree that much of the reaction to this story by religious is disturbing, not all the non-ho-hum reaction is of the the "hell-yeah" variety but on the other end of the spectrum as indicated by RetiredAg's and Aggie4Life's links as well as this and a number of others I've seen over the past week or so.

---

I think you misunderstood my post. I was just saying that among the religious people who don't outright oppose this in the way you and Retired do, the reactions range from "ho-hum, we gotta do what we gotta do," to "Hell yeah! 'Merica y'all!" The former I can almost find some kind of common ground with. The latter just come off as sadistic jerks. Often their very next facebook post is something about "Our lord and savior and loving they neighbor." The disconnect in that particular group is strange to witness.

quote:

---

That is a shocking, and disturbing, number to me. My brother and I were talking about this the other day, and how we are both floored to see so many people that claim Christ also support the use of torture. It runs so counter to the very message of Christ that we both assumed it wasn't even an issue that would be up for debate within the church.

---

There's a lot more that I think needs to be thought through.

Q1. Would it be "Christian" to use any means necessary to prevent the one's doing the torturing?
Q2. What's the difference between the torture of the Jews vs what the U.S. government is doing? (torture of the innocents vs a torture to potentially save a life) ((I'm not convinced our gov. has been perfect or without fault in this.))
Q3. Is there any instance in which torture could/should be justified?
Q4. In the scriptures do you see different commands for individuals, the church, and the governments?

quote:

---

This doesn't surprise me. It's a very Christian thing to accept grace for one's sins, while withholding grace for someone else's.

---

It's a very Christian thing for Christians to commit acts of sin until that day. A Christian withholding grace is not very Christ-like.

quote:

---

Q1. Would it be "Christian" to use any means necessary to prevent the one's doing the torturing?
Q2. What's the difference between the torture of the Jews vs what the U.S. government is doing? (torture of the innocents vs a torture to potentially save a life) ((I'm not convinced our gov. has been perfect or without fault in this.))
Q3. Is there any instance in which torture could/should be justified?
Q4. In the scriptures do you see different commands for individuals, the church, and the governments?

---

1. No. The ends don't justify the means. Ever. I don't believe we are allowed to sin, in order to prevent the circumstances of another's sin.
2. No difference. Torture is torture, regardless of the motivation.
3. No.
4. No.

quote:

---

It's a very Christian thing for Christians to commit acts of sin until that day. A Christian withholding grace is not very Christ-like.

---

I'm not sure how to read this...are you saying I am withholding grace by holding my opinion? Come on...we are just talking about the issues here. I am not condemning anyone or reducing their value as a human.

I also don't believe that Christians sinning is an acceptable thing, either....so I will not call sinning a "Christian" thing. An unfortunate truth, sure.

quote:

---

---

quote:

---

Dear CV Friend,
Remember the words of the Pledge of Allegiance?

When we pledge allegiance, we say to ourselves and to the world that ours is a nation "under God."

Because of this, we hold ourselves to the highest standard of all. International treaties and law, or concerns about creating recruitment tools for terrorists are important. But they are not the ultimate measure.

High moral standards matter. And the dignity of every human person is paramount.

Today we have been reviewing the report released by the Senate intelligence committee detailing interrogation practices used in the past by the CIA in the war on terror. The report contains some truly disturbing findings, including details on practices that were truly inexcusable and inhumane.

The truth is some members of our CIA engaged in activities intended to protect America that have no place in any civil society -- and we unequivocally oppose and condemn these actions by our government.

Writer Jim Manzi wrote years ago that "a decent society needs to defend itself from armed aggression without becoming a society not worth defending. This is never simple to accomplish."

Saint John Paul the Great described torture as an 'intrinsically evil' act. In such acts he explained "a good intention or particular circumstances can diminish their evil, but they cannot remove it. They remain 'irremediably evil acts; per seand in themselves they are not capable of being ordered to God and to the good of the person.'"

Part of the greatness of America is that we DO hold ourselves to such high standards. We are right to subject our government and its leaders to heavy scrutiny.

And when our government fails the universal test of human dignity, we demand justice. And rightly so.

Some people have pointed out that the timing of the release of this report was political. The preparation of the report has been clouded in controversy. But that doesn't change the facts. Based on confirmed reports, the CIA has acknowledged that it made mistakes and the political fallout has only just begun.

We readily admit that there are some difficult questions involved in interrogations. What constitutes torture can at times be difficult to define.

But what is not up for debate is that there have been cases where government officials have crossed the line. As one example, regardless of whether you believe waterboarding is torture, surely subjecting a person to the practice 183 times is indefensible. Or practices that brought our own interrogators to tears.

Torture is a violation of the dignity of the human person. Every human is made in the image and likeness of God.

The actions by those who engaged in torture, however well intended, or whether helpful intelligence was garnered in the process, does not excuse their actions.

Those who have fought to defend America have done so with both valor, and at times, with moral restraint. Their service remains worthy of our deepest esteem.

The greatness of America lies in holding ourselves to the highest of standards. "Under God" must mean something. This same standard allowed us to condemn and overcome slavery. And in time, by the grace of God, will allow us to end the evil of abortion too.

In the words of St. Thomas More, we are indeed called to be the 'King's good servant.'

But always God's first.

Brian


P.S. In condemning the use of torture, the Catechism of the Catholic Church specifically calls on us to "pray for the victims and their tormentors." CCC 2298. We join you in doing so today.

---

I am against torture.

I am very troubled by Christian ministers and
leaders basically questioning other Christian's
salvation based on differing opinions on a difficult subject. And there sure seem to be a lot of them that do this based on their own criteria.

Things were a lot different shortly after 9/11 and Navy Seals undergo water boarding as part of their training. And honestly I would like to know who the pastor voted for.

quote:

---

Q1. Would it be "Christian" to use any means necessary to prevent the one's doing the torturing?
Q2. What's the difference between the torture of the Jews vs what the U.S. government is doing? (torture of the innocents vs a torture to potentially save a life) ((I'm not convinced our gov. has been perfect or without fault in this.))
Q3. Is there any instance in which torture could/should be justified?
Q4. In the scriptures do you see different commands for individuals, the church, and the governments?

---

A1. Any means necessary? No.
A2. First, your question seems to assume that the ones tortured by the US government were guilty. I believe 22% were cleared and released. Second, the difference is irrelevant. Torturing an innocent man or torturing an evil man is still torture and incompatible w/ Christ's teachings.
A3. No, not at all.
A4. Individuals are called to love their enemies. Wearing a uniform doesn't release the individual Christian from the standard Christ set.

quote:

---

I am very troubled by Christian ministers and leaders basically questioning other Christian's salvation based on differing opinions on a difficult subject. And there sure seem to be a lot of them that do this based on their own criteria.

---

This isn't a difficult subject though. There is absolutely no way torture can be reconciled with Christ's teachings. This isn't Zahnd's criteria. He's using Christ's criteria.

quote:

---

Things were a lot different shortly after 9/11 and Navy Seals undergo water boarding as part of their training. And honestly I would like to know who the pastor voted for.

---

It is irrelevant that Navy Seals undergo waterboarding, and Christ's teachings were the same shortly after 9/11 as they were before 9/11. As for who Zahnd voted for, not sure why that is relevant to his point that supporting torture is not Christian.

quote:

---

quote:

---

And the fact that some the most religious people that I know are also the most avid hunters and gun enthusiasts.

---

How is this dumped with torture and capital punishment?


For the record, I'm not a hunter or even own a gun. Also strongly opposed to the use of torture and in almost all cases the use of capital punishment.

---

Apologies, my intention was neither to equate gun ownership with torture or capital punishment nor make a political statement.

I scratch my head when someone tells me that I should live more like Christ in one breath and in the next breath tells me about their collection of assault rifles. There seems to be a portion of hard core Christians who are obsessed with devices designed for murder and the two ideas seem at odds.

Lets stick with my reference to capital punishment as a better example of some Christians supporting something that seems at odds with their faith.

Stuff white people like: Torture

(I totally missed the race baiting in the OP article)

quote:

---

I scratch my head when someone tells me that I should live more like Christ in one breath and in the next breath tells me about their collection of assault rifles. There seems to be a portion of hard core Christians who are obsessed with devices designed for murder and the two ideas seem at odds.

---

I can understand your concern with assault weapons, or anything else that's specifically designed to kill humans, rather than animals.

There are a lot of things at play here.....

- Hardly anybody supports torture
- People can disagree on what exactly is defined as torture
- IMO, if the CIA believed that these terrorist had useful information, they had an obligation to use all means necessary (short of actual torture) to protect this country
- This report is not very credible IMO since they talked with few, if any, actual people involved.
- Even if this report was 100% accurate, it never should have been released to the public. This should have been handled internally.

quote:

---

Stuff white people like: Torture

(I totally missed the race baiting in the OP article)

---

Race baiting? If your issue is with singling out white evangelicals, the author explains why that was done:

quote:

---

White evangelicals were the only religious group with a majority of respondents who believed torture was often (18%) or sometimes (44%) justified in defense of United States interests. The study's sample size was too small to include some sizable other U.S. religious groups, such as Hispanic Catholics, but still, the data and the headlines remained: A clear majority of white evangelicals were in favor of the U.S. torture regime.

---

The Pew study: http://www.pewforum.org/2009/04/29/the-religious-dimensions-of-the-torture-debate/

Retiredag, I understand what you are saying but would guess that most of the Christians in favor don't consider water boarding classic torture.

And yes, I have a problem with a pastor basically threatening your salvation over any one issue which is essentially what the author did.

What about adultery? Stealing? Committing fraud? Lying?

What if a Christian is pro choice?

And I think since this issue has become so politicized that one's political preference is important.

No pastor, Pope, etc. can take away my salvation.

quote:

---

There are a lot of things at play here.....

- Hardly anybody supports torture

---

I disagree. I think an alarmingly high number of people support the use of torture when the victims are from a different country.

quote:

---

- People can disagree on what exactly is defined as torture

---

Whether what the US was doing qualifies as "torture" or not doesn't change the fact that what they were doing should not be supported by Christians.

quote:

---

- IMO, if the CIA believed that these terrorist had useful information, they had an obligation to use all means necessary (short of actual torture) to protect this country

---

This is not a Christian perspective though.

quote:

---

- Even if this report was 100% accurate, it never should have been released to the public. This should have been handled internally.

---

Our money was confiscated to fund these barbaric practices. It most certainly should have been released.

dermdoc,

quote:

---

Retiredag, I understand what you are saying but would guess that most of the Christians in favor don't consider water boarding classic torture.

---

As someone that has seen a grown man relegated to tears within 30 seconds of waterboarding, if they don't believe it is torture, then I believe it's due to a lack of understanding of what waterboarding is.

quote:

---

And yes, I have a problem with a pastor basically threatening your salvation over any one issue which is essentially what the author did.

---

No, that's not what he did. He said supporting torture isn't Christian. He clarified at the end w/ : "Can you support torture and go to heaven? Maybe. Can you support torture and be Christlike? No." He's not threatening anyone's salvation. He's just saying supporting something that is incompatible w/ Christ's teachings is not Christian.

quote:

---

What about adultery? Stealing? Committing fraud? Lying?

What if a Christian is pro choice?

And I think since this issue has become so politicized that one's political preference is important.

No pastor, Pope, etc. can take away my salvation.

---

If someone says adultery, theft, fraud, lying, or abortion are okay, then their views are not Christian views. They are not being Christ-like.