I will be seeing this movie in theaters again
jamesagg said:
Can someone explain to me the part where it's revealed that lady jessica got impregnated by the baron and the baron was Paul's grandfather? I had to run to the restroom and came in the middle of that part.
hunter2012 said:
Moving this here from the main thread:
So far I only have 2 minor gripes.
First, the pacing and time skips are a little bit wonky, months go by in the first 2 acts and it's a little hard to keep up with how much time has passed between scenes. To be fair the book jumps about 5 years between Leto's death and Paul's ascendancy, so this may just be an issue the overall universe since the whole thing is on a huge timescale.
My second gripe is Zendaya's portrayal of Chani, particularly the end. In the books she was pivotal in supporting Paul's burden in the war that he wages and his pursuit of the "narrow way". She understood the political necessity that his marriage to Irulan was to be in stabilizing the imperium. I disagree that book Chani would sandworm off into the desert. It makes her come across as a petulant jealous lover. In the books she was swept along with everyone else by the legend of Muadib also Spoiler alert for books 2 & 3:she can't bear the twins if they've broken up. But that's an issue for messiah, I just hope he doesn't have to pull a retcon/plot realignment like the Star Wars sequel trilogy in order to get the larger story back on track. I get that Zendaya is a super star right now, but does the movie really have to end with her doing that? or are they really going to write off their kids completely? It would be a real shame because Leto II is a great foil for his father.
Cinco Ranch Aggie said:
The movie was great as both a stand-alone and the conclusion to the first part. I have only read Dune Messiah once, back in the 80s, so I cannot determine what changes were made to be able to set up DV's third movie. Possibly something with Chani heading into the desert rather than staying with Paul as already discussed.
I thought Chalamet did a great job portraying Paul's growth over these two movies. And damn if his reunion with Gurney was not an emotional moment. I also like Javier Bardem's work as Stilgar - he provided some humor here but was also used to great effect to show the religious aspect that drove the Fremen, well, the southern Fremen apparently. Good choice in not having Alia actually born as in the 1984 movie. Oh, and Rebecca Ferguson is strong as Jessica but also good to look at.
I listened to the score several times this week. I thought it was good, but now having heard it in the movie, it became so much better. This is my typical experience with Zimmer.
So one question. I don't think I missed any explanation, not sure one was provided, but once one gets on a worm to go for a ride, how does one get off that thing?
Denis Villeneuve says he "found a way" for the Fremen to get off the sandworms in #Dune: "I can’t wait to put that on screen."https://t.co/zuaWWTjDeB
— Variety (@Variety) March 2, 2024
Quote:
I totally get that Dune is about the dangers of false prophets, imperialism, the conflation of politics and religion, as well as being a critique on the white savior trope, etc. What I don't get is what was the alternative choice Paul could have made? I get that he made the "bad" choice, one that I gather ultimately results in jihad and the deaths of billions, but I don't feel like the "right" choice was clearly presented in the movie as a road he actively chose not to go down.
TCTTS said:hunter2012 said:
Moving this here from the main thread:
So far I only have 2 minor gripes.
First, the pacing and time skips are a little bit wonky, months go by in the first 2 acts and it's a little hard to keep up with how much time has passed between scenes. To be fair the book jumps about 5 years between Leto's death and Paul's ascendancy, so this may just be an issue the overall universe since the whole thing is on a huge timescale.
My second gripe is Zendaya's portrayal of Chani, particularly the end. In the books she was pivotal in supporting Paul's burden in the war that he wages and his pursuit of the "narrow way". She understood the political necessity that his marriage to Irulan was to be in stabilizing the imperium. I disagree that book Chani would sandworm off into the desert. It makes her come across as a petulant jealous lover. In the books she was swept along with everyone else by the legend of Muadib also Spoiler alert for books 2 & 3:she can't bear the twins if they've broken up. But that's an issue for messiah, I just hope he doesn't have to pull a retcon/plot realignment like the Star Wars sequel trilogy in order to get the larger story back on track. I get that Zendaya is a super star right now, but does the movie really have to end with her doing that? or are they really going to write off their kids completely? It would be a real shame because Leto II is a great foil for his father.
IMO, as a non-book-reader, this change was absolutely necessary. Someone had to be the voice of caution, as an audience surrogate of sorts, and it makes so much sense for it to be her. Again, I just wish that she would have better-stated or explained what Paul should do instead. Then again, maybe she did and I just missed it.
Either way, I didn't see her as "a petulant, jealous lover" at all. I saw her as a heartbroken lover, one who only knows how to express herself through anger and stoicism. In fact, I'm trying to imagine a version of the story where she's not mad or heartbroken and I just can't see it. Her supporting Paul's choice would feel not just frictionless, but pointless.
That, and for me, there's nothing better than a blockbuster with a great, big, bittersweet ending, a la The Empire Strikes Back, the first two The Lord of the Rings movies, The Dark Knight, The Batman, etc. This one fell right in line with those, and it doesn't happen with Chani reacting exactly the way she does.
hunter2012 said:
Moving this here from the main thread:
So far I only have 2 minor gripes.
First, the pacing and time skips are a little bit wonky, months go by in the first 2 acts and it's a little hard to keep up with how much time has passed between scenes. To be fair the book jumps about 5 years between Leto's death and Paul's ascendancy, so this may just be an issue the overall universe since the whole thing is on a huge timescale.
My second gripe is Zendaya's portrayal of Chani, particularly the end. In the books she was pivotal in supporting Paul's burden in the war that he wages and his pursuit of the "narrow way". She understood the political necessity that his marriage to Irulan was to be in stabilizing the imperium. I disagree that book Chani would sandworm off into the desert. It makes her come across as a petulant jealous lover. In the books she was swept along with everyone else by the legend of Muadib also Spoiler alert for books 2 & 3:she can't bear the twins if they've broken up. But that's an issue for messiah, I just hope he doesn't have to pull a retcon/plot realignment like the Star Wars sequel trilogy in order to get the larger story back on track. I get that Zendaya is a super star right now, but does the movie really have to end with her doing that? or are they really going to write off their kids completely? It would be a real shame because Leto II is a great foil for his father.
I think another hint is when they're in the tent after the raid and he gets his name. He says, maybe I will die, maybe you will die too, but others will carry on. His actions totally discard that line of thinking.TCTTS said:TCTTS said:hunter2012 said:
Moving this here from the main thread:
So far I only have 2 minor gripes.
First, the pacing and time skips are a little bit wonky, months go by in the first 2 acts and it's a little hard to keep up with how much time has passed between scenes. To be fair the book jumps about 5 years between Leto's death and Paul's ascendancy, so this may just be an issue the overall universe since the whole thing is on a huge timescale.
My second gripe is Zendaya's portrayal of Chani, particularly the end. In the books she was pivotal in supporting Paul's burden in the war that he wages and his pursuit of the "narrow way". She understood the political necessity that his marriage to Irulan was to be in stabilizing the imperium. I disagree that book Chani would sandworm off into the desert. It makes her come across as a petulant jealous lover. In the books she was swept along with everyone else by the legend of Muadib also Spoiler alert for books 2 & 3:she can't bear the twins if they've broken up. But that's an issue for messiah, I just hope he doesn't have to pull a retcon/plot realignment like the Star Wars sequel trilogy in order to get the larger story back on track. I get that Zendaya is a super star right now, but does the movie really have to end with her doing that? or are they really going to write off their kids completely? It would be a real shame because Leto II is a great foil for his father.
IMO, as a non-book-reader, this change was absolutely necessary. Someone had to be the voice of caution, as an audience surrogate of sorts, and it makes so much sense for it to be her. Again, I just wish that she would have better-stated or explained what Paul should do instead. Then again, maybe she did and I just missed it.
Either way, I didn't see her as "a petulant, jealous lover" at all. I saw her as a heartbroken lover, one who only knows how to express herself through anger and stoicism. In fact, I'm trying to imagine a version of the story where she's not mad or heartbroken and I just can't see it. Her supporting Paul's choice would feel not just frictionless, but pointless.
That, and for me, there's nothing better than a blockbuster with a great, big, bittersweet ending, a la The Empire Strikes Back, the first two The Lord of the Rings movies, The Dark Knight, The Batman, etc. This one fell right in line with those, and it doesn't happen with Chani reacting exactly the way she does.
Thinking on it a bit more, the below scene might actually go a long way toward answering this. Tell me if this tracks…
We already know Chani hates the whole Messiah thing. That's made loud and clear. But more specifically, instead of embracing the Messiah role, Chani wants Paul to be her equal; to simply be a fellow Freman and take down the Harkonnen that way. No Messiah bullsh*t, just her, Paul, and all the Fremen rising as up as one.
Paul earnestly agrees… but then slowly but surely is manipulated into going the Messiah route, via Jessica, his sister, and his visions, culminating in drinking the Water of Life, at which point there's no going back. He now sees all roads, the truth, etc, and realizes that jihad is unavoidable whether he's the Messiah or not, so it might as well be him calling the shots?
In other words, this scene serves as the "good" path Paul could have taken, but ultimately doesn't…
MBAR said:
I haven't read the books, but there's no way she's as meaningful of a character if she just goes along with Paul after what he does. He literally discards her and goes back on everything he's said the entire time to her. Expecting her to just go along with that for any reason is a complete dismissal of who she's been portrayed as and the purpose she serves in the movie to warn against the use of prophecy as a method of control. I can't see how she has any agency in the book if that's how she is. I can't imagine that being a better use of her character.
As I said, I haven't read the books, but its also my understand that Herbert makes it clear in later books that how many people felt about Paul wasn't what he intended and he course corrects. Its possible that his use robbing of Chani's agency is why. There's a host of problems involving religous control and white savior complex that Chani's character as used by DV is great at pointing out. And yeah, she's also a scorned lover. How can she not be? The love story is meaningless if Paul tosses it aside and she is just like OH OK THATS COOL.
Its hard for me to accept changes to a work that people seem to love as much as people love Dune, so I completely get it. I have held off reading as I wanted to get DV's interpretation but now that I have it I'm going to read the 2-3 books.StinkyPinky said:MBAR said:
I haven't read the books, but there's no way she's as meaningful of a character if she just goes along with Paul after what he does. He literally discards her and goes back on everything he's said the entire time to her. Expecting her to just go along with that for any reason is a complete dismissal of who she's been portrayed as and the purpose she serves in the movie to warn against the use of prophecy as a method of control. I can't see how she has any agency in the book if that's how she is. I can't imagine that being a better use of her character.
As I said, I haven't read the books, but its also my understand that Herbert makes it clear in later books that how many people felt about Paul wasn't what he intended and he course corrects. Its possible that his use robbing of Chani's agency is why. There's a host of problems involving religous control and white savior complex that Chani's character as used by DV is great at pointing out. And yeah, she's also a scorned lover. How can she not be? The love story is meaningless if Paul tosses it aside and she is just like OH OK THATS COOL.
You're correct, in the book she has considerably less presence and role (her role becomes more pronounced later). So from a purist perspective it was just odd to see. But from a story telling and theatrical perspective I see why DV did it and probably the better product. My OCD sometimes struggles with change, but that's a personal flaw.
MBAR said:hunter2012 said:
Moving this here from the main thread:
So far I only have 2 minor gripes.
First, the pacing and time skips are a little bit wonky, months go by in the first 2 acts and it's a little hard to keep up with how much time has passed between scenes. To be fair the book jumps about 5 years between Leto's death and Paul's ascendancy, so this may just be an issue the overall universe since the whole thing is on a huge timescale.
My second gripe is Zendaya's portrayal of Chani, particularly the end. In the books she was pivotal in supporting Paul's burden in the war that he wages and his pursuit of the "narrow way". She understood the political necessity that his marriage to Irulan was to be in stabilizing the imperium. I disagree that book Chani would sandworm off into the desert. It makes her come across as a petulant jealous lover. In the books she was swept along with everyone else by the legend of Muadib also Spoiler alert for books 2 & 3:she can't bear the twins if they've broken up. But that's an issue for messiah, I just hope he doesn't have to pull a retcon/plot realignment like the Star Wars sequel trilogy in order to get the larger story back on track. I get that Zendaya is a super star right now, but does the movie really have to end with her doing that? or are they really going to write off their kids completely? It would be a real shame because Leto II is a great foil for his father.
Calling Chani petulant is amazing considering she got stabbed almost as badly as Fayd. Couldn't love what they did with her character more and though the end scene and her acting was one of the best parts of the film.