*** OPPENHEIMER *** (Spoiler Thread)

62,905 Views | 550 Replies | Last: 11 hrs ago by Cliff.Booth
Zombie Jon Snow
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Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

For me, I figure Oppenheimer will be a movie that I will watch all the way through once every few years.

Yeah. Plus I can't wait to watch it with subtitles on.

A little hard of hearing and with the continuous droning/building tension noises some dialogue was hard to catch at times. I was in an IMAX theater maybe that was worse.

I got the gist of everything anyway, but I love to see the actual dialogue in dialogue heavy movies.


Brian Earl Spilner
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Great vid.
BCG Disciple
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I enjoyed it tremendously. There aren't many movies for which I stay awake, especially when it ends after 1245am on a Tuesday morning, but this one had me interested.

Slight criticism, I wanted more bomb making quantum mechanics theoretical physics back and forth. As someone who has taken his family to Los Alamos, it is just something that gets me going. Would have preferred the movie to have been titled A Bomb instead of Oppenheimer.

I knew Oppenheimer was caught up in some form of McCarthyism, but had no knowledge of the details. Watching how it went down, I couldn't help but think he was more guilty than they likely led on considering the source and intent of the movie. I did not have much sympathy for his plight. He was not a man of character considering his personal life choices, so I have a hard time believing he was suddenly a man of character when it came to his country. Maybe Nazi fear made him walk the straight and narrow, but it just didn't work for me on that level.
HollywoodBQ
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I Am A Critic said:

HollywoodBQ said:

where people are really slow to let go of the Covid fear.
As much as you bring it up when it's irrelevant to the conversation, it sounds like you're having a hard time letting go too.
We were discussing the theater experience that Oppenheimer and Barbie are responsible for.

There hasn't been one like this for many years. Sorry if your feels got hurt.

Think about how brave those people were to watch go out in public to watch movies about a Doll and an Atomic Bomb while fearing for their lives. They should really be commended for partially overcoming their fear.

After all, we're 24 months past when King Newsom allowed us back into bars briefly before shutting them down again. And it's been a whole 15 months since the last time I was vax carded to enter a bar.

Unless you live here in La La Land, you really can't comprehend it.
But, my ride here is almost finished. I'll be back in the Lone Star State before our next 5-7 football season kicks off.
jeffk
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3rd Generation Ag said:

The one thing I came home and researched last night was if any of the scientists who were so exposed to Trinity died of radiation related issues and found my answer. I also looked at civilian casualties.


Yeah, the whole era is filled with little known tragedies. The Navajo involvement with the uranium mining and the Downwinders are two stories that I barely knew anything about until adulthood despite growing up in NM and having a dad who worked at the labs.
TXTransplant
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One scene that really left an impression on me was during the hearings when Groves was asked by the board if he would give Oppenheimer his security clearance by current (at the time of the hearing) standards.

Before Groves even answered, I knew where it was going - of course not. Probably very few of the people would have gotten a security clearance to work on the Manhattan Project. But desperate times called for desperate measures, so to speak.

Oppenheimer himself, based on the little I have read, seemed to have mental health issues that were more severe than what was depicted in the movie. He had questionable politics, questionable taste in women, and a difficult personality.

But he was a scientific genius who happened to be in the right place at the right time in history. As I said in a previous post, I'm sure this started out as a vanity project for him. He was driven by ego, to beat his colleagues in Europe to the punch.

What I think the movie tried to convey is that at some point he realized the project and its impact were bigger than his genius and his ego.

Academics are primarily concerned with their legacy. Many of his colleagues went on to do other things - even win Nobel Prizes - and their names weren't synonymous with the bomb. However, at some point, Oppenheimer realized that as director, his name and his legacy was going to be forever known as the father of the most destructive weapon ever created and used. And I don't think he was comfortable with that (honestly, who would be).

I think the movie wants us to believe that his opposition to the hydrogen bomb was some sort of atonement or penance for his work on the atom bomb and that post-war, he became some sort of scientific "influencer" of atomic policy (at least until his security clearance was revoked). I also think it wants us to believe that, whatever association he had with Communism, he did not commit treason. Also, it makes no sense that we would give information to rival colleagues that could allow them to "scoop" him. That's the worst thing that can happen to an academic researcher, which is what he was.

I too didn't come away from the movie "liking" Oppenheimer or even feeling sorry for him, but I don't think that's what Nolan intended. The movie did carry through with the martyr theme, but in the context of the movie, that's not a desirable characteristic (Kitty is angry at him for being a martyr).

What I did come away with is an appreciation and respect for the wide ranging impact that Oppenheimer and this project have had - on the academic fields of physics, chemistry, thermodynamics, engineering, and the scientists who have built on his work, as well weapons, war, world peace, and the ethics and morality of it all.

The movie wanted us to believe that Oppenheimer died thinking his legacy was death and the destruction of the world. We all know that's not what happened (at least not yet), and I think in many ways the relative peace across the world of the last 75+ years is making us forget his name and his contributions.

This movie is really staying with me. There have been a lot of genius scientists who have made a lot of extremely significant contributions. But I'm inclined to view this one differently, not because of its larger impact, but because of what it required from Oppenheimer and his colleagues and what it left on their collective consciences. I can't think of a scientific development before or since that asked so much of the people who created it.
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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Good post.

The movie is sticking with me too for many of the same reasons that you mention. Plus someone else posted something about the Trinity test itself, and how that didn't happen in a vacuum. That has started me down a rabbit trail to find whatever I can on what damage that test blast caused to people who did live within the blast radius.
Jack Thauer
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Home media thoughts.

Obviously it can be downscaled to native 4K. Do they compress it down to fit on one 100gb disc or do they spread across one 100gb disc and one 66gb disc. Not many 4Ks that require disc swaps (I think the only ones in my collection are LOTR and Lawrence of Arabia).

If they do split, where does that disc swap occur? After trinity test? I feel like that would make the last hour feel more like a prologue than it already does.

I tend to think it'll get slightly compressed and they will squeeze it onto a 100gb disc with all special features on either it's own disc or the blu ray.
Head Ninja In Charge
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Dumb question as I'm not a historian nor did I catch every line of dialogue when watching it yesterday:

Were the stakes for Oppenheimer's sham hearing all around the renewal of his...security clearance??? Like there wasn't an actual crime he committed that he was being tried for where there was an actual sentencing risk or anything in play, right? He masterminded the atomic bomb, there were concerns (valid or invalid) about security leaks, and all of the courtroom/legal procedural stuff in the last third of the movie was just about a clearance? For a guy who already finished the job?

If so, I'm downgrading this from 9/10 to an 8/10.
TJaggie14
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Yes it was about security clearance. I think it's important to remember what was going on during that time. Folks were looking to scientist to make public policy (remember a couple years ago during a certain pandemic). Strauss was concerned that Robert Oppenheimer would tank his political ambitions, and so he set out to discredit him.

The US was in the cold war. Tensions were high with the Soviets. When looking at history it's critical to analyze things through the lense & perspective of what was going on at that time, not by today's perspectives.
Bunk Moreland
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Quote:

For a guy who already finished the job?

Making the first bombs wasn't finishing the job. Losing his clearance basically cut him off from being able to continue working on what had been his life's work.
BassCowboy33
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Jack Thauer said:

Home media thoughts.

Obviously it can be downscaled to native 4K. Do they compress it down to fit on one 100gb disc or do they spread across one 100gb disc and one 66gb disc. Not many 4Ks that require disc swaps (I think the only ones in my collection are LOTR and Lawrence of Arabia).

If they do split, where does that disc swap occur? After trinity test? I feel like that would make the last hour feel more like a prologue than it already does.

I tend to think it'll get slightly compressed and they will squeeze it onto a 100gb disc with all special features on either it's own disc or the blu ray.


Question, as this is something I've been pondering: How are the visuals and sound on 4K/blu-ray compared to streaming? I'm considering getting a Blu-ray player, and I have heard its quite a superior experience to streaming.
TJaggie14
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I've heard blacks/dark scenes are better on physical media vs. streaming. Has to do with compression. Some movies I'll stream and I have no clue what is going on because it looks like a black screen.

I'm sure sound is better as well.
Jack Thauer
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Less compression. Amount of data being transferred is considerably higher. I prefer physical media to streaming for this reason (plus I own it and it can't be altered or removed).

The final season of GoT is a perfect example. Dark scenes are so compressed on streaming it is difficult to make out what is happening. (Here is a good video explaining it)



You can find blu rays for cheap at Goodwill, pawn shops etc. blu ray players are pretty cheap now also.

I'm probably the wrong person to ask though because I have thousands of discs
Charlie Conway
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Jack Thauer said:

Less compression. Amount of data being transferred is considerably higher. I prefer physical media to streaming for this reason (plus I own it and it can't be altered or removed).

The final season of GoT is a perfect example. Dark scenes are so compressed on streaming it is difficult to make out what is happening. (Here is a good video explaining it)



You can find blu rays for cheap at Goodwill, pawn shops etc. blu ray players are pretty cheap now also.

I'm probably the wrong person to ask though because I have thousands of disc
while he explains the compromise in audio and video compression well, he also recommends the final season of GoT so basically I can't accept any argument he makes about anything.
TXTransplant
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Bunk Moreland said:

Quote:

For a guy who already finished the job?

Making the first bombs wasn't finishing the job. Losing his clearance basically cut him off from being able to continue working on what had been his life's work.


Not to mention, he was accused of treason. That in and of itself was worth defending himself against.

Then during the hearings, there was the whole issue of him previously lying about Chevalier, which I presume would be perjury.

Interesting though, looking just now at Oppenheimer's Wikipedia entry, there is a quote from Rabi in Oppenheimer's defense. Rabi pointed out that at the point the security clearance became an issue, Oppenheimer was pretty much just functioning as a government consultant. Rabi is quoted as saying if the government "didn't want to consult the guy, then don't consult him".

Kind of shows how much it got out of hand. It really was a personal vendetta/smear campaign (as many of these accusations at that time were).
Jack Thauer
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Haha fair enough. His coverage of physical media releases (from an AV perspective), however, is probably the best online.
Cliff.Booth
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I mean, the Soviet Union had been very actively placing and recruiting people in influential or sensitive positions. The guy had partied with, slept with, and worked alongside commies for years. At the very least it was likely he was a Soviet sympathizer, and it isn't that much of a stretch to believe he was cooperating with them on some level. It's true that Strauss was out to get him, but his past made him a very easy dude to get.
Tanya 93
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Tried to buy tickets for tonight because Tuesdays are 5.50 tickets.

Sold out.

So tomorrow night at 8.75 a ticket.


Frugal mom here
Jack Thauer
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Like the movie suggests though, they knew that going in and thought it was a positive that they could control him because of it. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Cliff.Booth
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It's really crazy if you think about it. I wonder how closely he was being monitored when he'd leave Los Alamos to travel. It seems he was meeting with his commie ex and having an affair, for starters. We probably know the tip of the iceberg.
TXTransplant
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I agree…he did himself no favors given who he associated with and the causes he chose to support. But communism was a very different thing pre-WWII. I think people were more worried about being accused of being a Nazi than accused of being a communist.

There are a lot of people who had associations that would have disqualified them for any sort of security clearance. Heck, most of these guys were European (or first generation Americans). Oppenheimer's own actions and "fame" made him just as likely to be a spy as they made him a great choice as a target/scapegoat for Strauss.

I'm pretty sure the movie wants us to believe he was innocent of those charges. Who knows what really happened, and in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter anymore. I provided that information to give more context as to why the security clearance hearings were such a "big deal".
I Am A Critic
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BCG Disciple said:

He was not a man of character considering his personal life choices, so I have a hard time believing he was suddenly a man of character when it came to his country.
lol

Username checks out.
Cliff.Booth
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And lol Clinton, JFK, etc. Not very uncommon.
Teslag
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Quote:

And I don't think he was comfortable with that (honestly, who would be).
Edward Teller for one.
Teslag
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Cliff.Booth said:

I mean, the Soviet Union had been very actively placing and recruiting people in influential or sensitive positions. The guy had partied with, slept with, and worked alongside commies for years. At the very least it was likely he was a Soviet sympathizer, and it isn't that much of a stretch to believe he was cooperating with them on some level. It's true that Strauss was out to get him, but his past made him a very easy dude to get.

There's a lot of truth to this. The real life version of Florence Pugh's character was a very active communist and the group she worked with funneled money FROM the USSR to promote espionage to groups in the United States up until its dissolution.

They kinda wanted to tie a lot of this to McCarthyist hysteria but truth is, the soviets were actually doing a lot of the things McCarthy accused people of.
TXTransplant
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Teslag said:


Quote:

And I don't think he was comfortable with that (honestly, who would be).
Edward Teller for one.


Based on what I've read, it wasn't black and white for Teller, either.

Teller was upset with Oppenheimer for taking part in the committee that ultimately recommended that military use was the only option. Not because he disagreed with the recommendation, but because he viewed Oppenheimer as a hypocrite.

Oppenheimer's position is clearly complicated as well. I think the purpose of the movie is to show just how complicated the situation is from a human perspective.
Squadron7
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Teslag said:


Quote:

And I don't think he was comfortable with that (honestly, who would be).
Edward Teller for one.

Ernest O Lawrence for another.
veryfuller
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I think we know more about Oppenheimer's movements than just about anyone else associated with the project. He was under intense scrutiny and if there was anything to be dug up there, Srauss or Hoover would have dug it up and made it public.

Also, the fascinating thing about Jean Tatlock is that her father discovered her body, then went through her apartment and burned all her papers in the fire place BEFORE calling the coroner (didn't call the authorities at all). And the suspicions of her being murdered were never quite quelled. Was it the FBI or the communists? One could think of a few motives for either side to get rid of her, especially if she was a spy and if her #1 mark decidedly broke contact with her.
Cliff.Booth
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veryfuller said:

I think we know more about Oppenheimer's movements than just about anyone else associated with the project. He was under intense scrutiny and if there was anything to be dug up there, Srauss or Hoover would have dug it up and made it public.




In the movie there are many private conversations shown between Oppenheimer and others that are imagined. Unless he was being recorded in these there really is much we don't know. What was he actually saying to his mistress? To Chevalier? To his brother? The movie also has him barely if ever speaking with Fuchs....but he must have. I'm intrigued by where he really falls on the spectrum between naive dude with shady associates or willing participant in espionage.
PeekingDuck
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Yep, everyone likes to **** on McCarthy and some of it is warranted. But he wasn't wrong.
Teslag
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TXTransplant said:

Teslag said:


Quote:

And I don't think he was comfortable with that (honestly, who would be).
Edward Teller for one.


Based on what I've read, it wasn't black and white for Teller, either.

Teller was upset with Oppenheimer for taking part in the committee that ultimately recommended that military use was the only option. Not because he disagreed with the recommendation, but because he viewed Oppenheimer as a hypocrite.

Oppenheimer's position is clearly complicated as well. I think the purpose of the movie is to show just how complicated the situation is from a human perspective.

Teller was very vocal about his support for fusion weapons, and even pushed many programs to use nuclear weapons to dig harbors, mine for minerals, and generally be used for large scale excavation. In his later years he consistently said he never had a single regret for his work on the hydrogen bomb.

I've read a lot about Teller and actually find him far more interesting than Oppenheimer as a real person. Loved his scenes in Oppenheimer as well.
TXTransplant
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One question the movie raised for me was whether Lawrence helped and supported Oppenheimer as director of the project because he didn't want that moral responsibility on his shoulders.

Lawrence was extremely accomplished in his own right, but outside of a bunch of science and engineering nerds, he doesn't have the "fame" (infamy?) and name recognition of Oppenheimer. He had already won the Nobel Prize, and his post war career was very focused on academic endeavors and getting government to fund "big science".

His involvement in the Manhattan Project was arguably not the defining moment of his career, but he did leverage that project to gain millions of dollars in federal funding for just about everything else he did after that.

Knowing what I know about academics and their obsession with "legacy", this seems like it was intentional and strategic to me. But there is definitely a lot of personal opinion and bias in my view.

Jack Thauer
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TXTransplant
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Funny takeaway from the movie…I noticed the black "eyeliner" around the actor who portrays Teller's eyes. I definitely had a Johnny Depp/Pirates of the Caribbean moment.

But I just looked at an actual picture of Teller, and his eyes in the photo are really black-rimmed.

But to your point, it seems like all of these scientists' view points changed over time (as one would expect). By some accounts, Teller looked to Oppenheimer on how the bomb should be used, at least during the development and testing period. When Oppenheimer disappointed him, he spoke out with a different viewpoint (and criticism of Oppenheimer).

He clearly became more certain in his convictions in later years, especially as he developed the hydrogen bomb. But in the context of the Manhattan Project/time frame of the film, he certainly seems to be more impressionable.

And his moniker of "Father of the Hydrogen bomb" doesn't quite leave the same legacy as Oppenheimer's since Teller's creation was never used as part of a conflict or war.
 
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