aTmAg said:

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fig96 said:

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There's never been a blockbuster film on the scale of BP with a cast of people of color, and that's understandably a really big deal to a lot of people. Representation does matter.

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Notice that representation matters a whole lot more to people who want to stoke racial tensions than those who do not? People who aren't fixated on race and really see us all as one human race don't care. I don't care that whites are underrepresented in the NFL and NBA, since the best players play. Whining about racial representation in movies is as idiotic as whining that there are not enough left handed soccer players.

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Representation matters to people who have been underrepresented in the past. Go watch videos of young African American kids who are thrilled that they have characters on screen who look like them and tell me they're stoking racial tensions.

aTmAg said:

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fig96 said:

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I haven't seen much directly implying others are racist, but it's silly to act like there's been equal representation in film across time. If a film isn't for you then it isn't for you, but people that are genuinely bothered by this need to step back and look at the bigger picture IMO.

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Again, I'm not bothered that the movie exists, did well at the box office, has a black cast, etc. I'm bothered by the notion that RACISM is the reason it hasn't happened prior to now. I'm bothered that I was called a sexist because I mocked that latest Ghostbusters movie. I'm bothered that I was called a racist because I disagreed with Obama's policies (nevermind I disagreed with both Clinton and Bush too).

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Studios haven't been willing to put big budgets into minority driven films in the past. Is that due to bias, financials, systemic racism, or some combination of lots of different factors?

It's certainly more complex than can be distilled down into a paragraph, but it's not radical to conclude that the Hollywood system has been biased against minority drive films for quite some time.

That doesn't make anyone in particular racist, but it does put an onus on studios to try to be more inclusive in the films they make. And from the box office of several recent films that doesn't look to be a bad thing from a business perspective.

PatAg said:

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I was saying I don't get why they can't just be happy with the movie being goo and being a huge box office hit. We don't need to pretend it's some amazing feat, or any more Oscar worthy than other Marvel movies.

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I haven't seen the movie, so I'm not going to comment on it's awesomeness or suckiness. It seems that others think it's not worthy of being nominated for an Oscar, and I'll let them argue that. I was merely addressing your question about the greatness of seeing someone of your color represented in a role.

To me, it will be great when nobody cares to comment on how great it is to see black, white, purple, etc. people in certain roles. We seemed to reach that state decades ago. Nobody took special notice that Will Smith was the heroic black lead in Independence Day, for example. We just went and saw that movie in huge numbers and went home and lived our lives.

We (as a country in general) seem to be reverting from that to a bunch of race baiting arguing nowadays. Things have gotten worse, not better. That's not something to celebrate, IMO.

There's also the difference between "a black character" or "a black lead" and "an [almost] all-black cast." The MCU already had Nick Fury, War Machine and Falcon. Black Panther was in Civil War. These were all small roles, but they were there.

That said, this is a movie where almost the entire cast was black, it was set in Africa, it paid tribute to African cultures, etc. And black women is an especially important note - you can name a handful of black male superheroes, but black female superheroes are pretty hard to come by. Marvel has Monica Rambeau, Misty Knight... I'm at a bit of a loss after that. So in a way, it's not just that it was a black-led superhero film, but that there were a lot of talented black actors - male and female - in a film that showcased some (fictional) African culture, had a black director, etc. That may not be a big deal to you, but it is to some.

And while black actors may, technically, be over-represented in Hollywood compared to the U.S. population average, it's often in comedic or supporting roles, like the MCU examples I listed above. So the film is a bit of an exception in that way.

Lastly, in regards to African Americans being over-represented in Hollywood: this is statistically true. But I think people are hoping that this is opening the eyes of some studios - there are obviously very big populations who felt underrepresented and turned out in droves for both Wonder Woman and Black Panther. So I think there are plenty of people out there who would like to see that extended to other situations as well, and make it less of a black/white thing. I mentioned black female superheroes above, but good luck naming many prominent Asian or Hispanic Marvel characters while you're at it. Or actors. I think that's what a lot of the vocal internet folks want to see more of - more opportunities and representation for people of all ethnicities and genders.


Edit: none of that is to say that the movie is of better quality than, say, Infinity War. I just wanted to add a little on why some people saw Black Panther as a big deal. It's not really fair to say "there are black superheroes! Go watch Blade, from 1998!" to someone who wants to see more black heroes on screen. For the record, I thought Black Panther was good, I thought Danny Rand was correctly cast as white, I thought Wonder Woman was overrated, and I think BP shouldn't have a Best Picture nomination, but it definitely deserved recognition for design, costumes, music, etc. etc.

fig96 said:

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aTmAg said:

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fig96 said:

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There's never been a blockbuster film on the scale of BP with a cast of people of color, and that's understandably a really big deal to a lot of people. Representation does matter.

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Notice that representation matters a whole lot more to people who want to stoke racial tensions than those who do not? People who aren't fixated on race and really see us all as one human race don't care. I don't care that whites are underrepresented in the NFL and NBA, since the best players play. Whining about racial representation in movies is as idiotic as whining that there are not enough left handed soccer players.

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Representation matters to people who have been underrepresented in the past. Go watch videos of young African American kids who are thrilled that they have characters on screen who look like them and tell me they're stoking racial tensions.

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I will tell you exactly that.

The fact that such a thing matters so much to young African American kids IS the problem. That is a symptom of the underlying disease, not a sign of a cure. Many of them are being taught by race baiting parents, teachers, politicians, etc. that society is holding them down. That has been untrue for decades and is a mentality that itself is holding them down.

If this movie inspired kids to work their ass off to better themselves, then THAT would be something I would praise. This movie has certainly made it's producers, actors, etc. wealthy, but it won't help those kids or their parents in any way. Those of them who think this movie is some sort of sign that the boot of life has taken some weight off their neck will be sorely disappointed. What they don't realize that that boot is on all our necks, and the only way to get out from under it is to work and fight out of it ourselves. It is NOT wait and hope that the boot comes off on it's own.

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aTmAg said:

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fig96 said:

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I haven't seen much directly implying others are racist, but it's silly to act like there's been equal representation in film across time. If a film isn't for you then it isn't for you, but people that are genuinely bothered by this need to step back and look at the bigger picture IMO.

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Again, I'm not bothered that the movie exists, did well at the box office, has a black cast, etc. I'm bothered by the notion that RACISM is the reason it hasn't happened prior to now. I'm bothered that I was called a sexist because I mocked that latest Ghostbusters movie. I'm bothered that I was called a racist because I disagreed with Obama's policies (nevermind I disagreed with both Clinton and Bush too).

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Studios haven't been willing to put big budgets into minority driven films in the past. Is that due to bias, financials, systemic racism, or some combination of lots of different factors?

It's certainly more complex than can be distilled down into a paragraph, but it's not radical to conclude that the Hollywood system has been biased against minority drive films for quite some time.

That doesn't make anyone in particular racist, but it does put an onus on studios to try to be more inclusive in the films they make. And from the box office of several recent films that doesn't look to be a bad thing from a business perspective.

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If it was about "systemic racism" then studios wouldn't have put black's in lead roles for so many of their movie for all these years. If movie goers themselves were racist, then we wouldn't have flocked to see them. The reason studios don't put big budgets into "minority driven" films is because, unlike BP, most minority driven films are about being in that minority. Such topics typically do not appeal to people outside that given minority. Giving Spike Lee $500M dollars to spend on CGI for Jungle Fever will not make that movie a blockbuster. No matter how much is spent, it would max out as a $40M by it's nature. So studios are smart, and give Spike Lee $14M and spend that $500M on movies that appeal to a wide audience, such as Black Panther.

Sorry, but you speak as someone rather disconnected from reality.

People want to see people that look like themselves on film. A postracial world where no one cares would be ideal, but until that point in time representation does matter. And even if we did have that utopia, people would still relate to people that look like them, have home lives like they do, have friends and schoolmates like they do.

And a handful of black film stars over the years doesn't mean there's no such thing as systemic racism, not to mention ignores directing/producing/writing/etc.

It's threads like this that make me wish there was a TexAgs equivalent of The Snap.

How is this conversation STILL going on?

(Rhetorical question. The answer is obvious.)

fig96 said:

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ac04 said:

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GiveEmHellBill said:

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No one actually thinks that Black Panther is a Best Picture nominee.

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ok, tell that to the posters who started doing kegel exercises when i pointed this out.

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Yeah, not what you said, nor has anyone on this thread been campaigning for the film.

I personally really enjoyed BP and some didn't, to each their own. But stating that it was so bad you couldn't even finish it is just dumb.

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No it's not. I had to start and stop it 3 times BECAUSE IT WAS BAD! And I only finished it b/c of ties to the Marvel Universe. If it was a stand alone movie, I'd likely have turned it off and forgot about it.

I also tried to watch it multiple times. Only good thing about this movie is that they were involved in IW.

fig96 said:

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Sorry, but you speak as someone rather disconnected from reality.

People want to see people that look like themselves on film. A postracial world where no one cares would be ideal, but until that point in time representation does matter. And even if we did have that utopia, people would still relate to people that look like them, have home lives like they do, have friends and schoolmates like they do.

And a handful of black film stars over the years doesn't mean there's no such thing as systemic racism, not to mention ignores directing/producing/writing/etc.

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fig96 said:

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Sorry, but you speak as someone rather disconnected from reality.

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Ditto.

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People want to see people that look like themselves on film.

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Obviously most people don't. If they did, then Black Panther would have tanked as blacks only make up 12% of the population. It is not a coincidence that those who do care are seem to find themselves in decline. It's because that mentality is poisonous.

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A postracial world where no one cares would be ideal, but until that point in time representation does matter.

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The only way that it matters is in how it's a poisonous mentality that keeps people who think it down. We should be trying to dispel that myth, not propagate it.

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And even if we did have that utopia, people would still relate to people that look like them, have home lives like they do, have friends and schoolmates like they do.

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Merely relating to people is vastly different than what's going on here. People wouldn't declare it as "groundbreaking" nor would it be up for an Oscar if it was merely about that.

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And a handful of black film stars over the years doesn't mean there's no such thing as systemic racism, not to mention ignores directing/producing/writing/etc.

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Lack of black directors/producers/writers/actors is not a sign of systemic racism anymore than the lack of white NBA/NFL/etc. players.

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And a handful of black film stars over the years doesn't mean there's no such thing as systemic racism, not to mention ignores directing/producing/writing/etc.

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Lack of black directors/producers/writers/actors is not a sign of systemic racism anymore than the lack of white NBA/NFL/etc. players.

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So you're saying here that black people aren't capable of being as good at acting, writing or directing? Ridiculous.

Athletics is about physical ability, not a good comparison.

dave94 said:

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And a handful of black film stars over the years doesn't mean there's no such thing as systemic racism, not to mention ignores directing/producing/writing/etc.

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Lack of black directors/producers/writers/actors is not a sign of systemic racism anymore than the lack of white NBA/NFL/etc. players.

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So you're saying here that black people aren't capable of being as good at acting, writing or directing? Ridiculous.

Athletics is about physical ability, not a good comparison.

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Terrible comparison...that's like saying the reason there aren't as many female doctors or lawyers is because they aren't as capable as male doctors and lawyers.

If you don't want to be called a racist then you should probably refrain from saying things like that.

And by the way if you are someone who is tired of being called a racist all the time you might want to think about why that is instead of blaming everyone else....

rhutton125 said:

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Lastly, in regards to African Americans being over-represented in Hollywood: this is statistically true. But I think people are hoping that this is opening the eyes of some studios - there are obviously very big populations who felt underrepresented and turned out in droves for both Wonder Woman and Black Panther. So I think there are plenty of people out there who would like to see that extended to other situations as well, and make it less of a black/white thing. I mentioned black female superheroes above, but good luck naming many prominent Asian or Hispanic Marvel characters while you're at it. Or actors. I think that's what a lot of the vocal internet folks want to see more of - more opportunities and representation for people of all ethnicities and genders.

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At least we covered the midgets already with The Wizard of Oz and Under the Rainbow.

Check!

Maybe the lack of black superheroes is that there are too few black authors who write comic books with compelling black leads.

This is the absurdity of saying "why arent there more Jewish anime characters?!" Anime was written by Japanese creators, for a Japanese audience. Likewise comic books were written by white guys, for a young white male audience. And now Hollywood is saying Johnny Storm has to be black...because "representation."

It's funny how only cultural appropriation is only bad when white folks do it. Otherwise its "social justice."

GRRM talked about representation of the extras and he basically told them to stfu. "When we film in Morocco, the extras are Moroccan. When we film in Ireland, the extras are Irish. We arent going to fly in moroccans to the sets in Ireland."

dave94 said:

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Quote:

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And a handful of black film stars over the years doesn't mean there's no such thing as systemic racism, not to mention ignores directing/producing/writing/etc.

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Lack of black directors/producers/writers/actors is not a sign of systemic racism anymore than the lack of white NBA/NFL/etc. players.

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So you're saying here that black people aren't capable of being as good at acting, writing or directing? Ridiculous.

Athletics is about physical ability, not a good comparison.

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Or they more often choose to act, write, and direct movies that focus on racial topics that do not have wide appeal. Only a small niche are into race based Spike Lee-esq movies (Jungle Fever, Chi-Raq, etc). Yet movies such as Get Out and Black Panther have much wider appeal and therefore do very well, even though the cast is black. John Singleton made both Higher Learning (race-based) and 2 Fast 2 furious (wide appeal). The former did poorly, the latter did great. It's not about race of the movie makers or actors, it's about the subject of the movie. The more niche movies a director is going to pick, the less money studios will offer. No matter if the directory is white or black.

The way you can tell that it's not based on racism is because there wasn't a standout black director/writer/etc. that came in and crushed everybody else. Compare that to when Jackie Robinson first joined MLB. Blacks were kept out of baseball because of racism, not because they were bad. For a racist league to finally play a black player, you know that player had to be damn good, and Jackie Robinson was DAMN good. He had a Hall of Fame career and got rookie of the year in a league that was still damn racist. Then the dam broke. Within 5 years, there were 20 blacks in the league, those smart teams who were signing a bunch great black players were winning world series. Blacks were killing it.

That is not the case for black movie makers. There wasn't a studio, like paramount, hiring the most talented (yet previosly passed over) black director and killing it at the box office. The first black director made his debut in 1919. And there had been black directors throughout. They simply chose to make "race films" and movies like shaft and Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song rather than wide audience films. Black directors run the gambit from great to poor, but none of them are kicking Speilberg's ass at the box office.

TCTTS said:

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It's threads like this that make me wish there was a TexAgs equivalent of The Snap.

How is this conversation STILL going on?

(Rhetorical question. The answer is obvious.)

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I don't think this topic is out of bounds on the entertainment board board, as long as people remain respectful (I realize there have been some posts in the thread that needed to be nuked, it's probably not easy being a mod on this board).

I'm genuinely curious about your thoughts about including this movie on the Best Picture list as you're there in Hollywood.

I don't think the topic is out of bounds either. Frankly, I'm just embarrassed to even be remotely associated with a small handful of posters/comments/beliefs in this thread, by virtue of posting on the same board as them. That, and at this point everyone is going around and around in circles and nothing new is really being said, no one's minds are being changed, etc. It just seems like a pointless exercise this far into the life cycle of this thread.

But to answer your question, as for my thoughts on including Black Panther as a Best Picture nominee, I guess I'd say I'm of two minds. It was fine overall, fun at times, and I appreciate that it attempted to tackle more nuanced, complicated themes than most Marvel movies. But based on its technical/narrative merits, no, I don't think it belongs as one of the top 8-10 movies of the year. Top 25? Sure. But not top 8-10.

That said, the Best Picture category feels like it's slowly but surely changing. Rather than the "best" movies full stop, it feels like it's starting to trend slightly more toward the "the best movies that best represent the year as a whole," if that makes sense. Obviously, it's not there yet, and probably never will be, but it's becoming more frequent that a "popular" movie or two (that might not have otherwise been considered) is seeping in to help better create a more accurate/complete snapshot of the year. So, if that's what Best Picture is coming to mean/represent, then absolutely, Black Panther belongs as a zeitgeist movie for 2018, helps best represent the "vibe" of the year, and "earns" a spot because of how beloved it is to an increasingly important part of film culture.

And look, I've only seen Black Panther once, in theaters. Before Endgame I plan on watching it again, and maybe my opinion will change (for better or worse), so we'll see how I feel then. All I know is that its "worthiness" in the Best Picture category depends on how you define the category itself, and honestly, I'm fine with either definition, especially if it means more people watching the Oscars, and thus discovering movies they might not have otherwise discovered.

That's an interesting point. Do you think the Best Picture should continue down that path for nominations? Personally I don't, but I imagine it must be a way for them to try to get viewers.

I honestly don't know. I like the idea of the Oscars being more accessible to more people, for the reason I listed above, but I also like the attempt to definitively say THESE are the BEST movies of the year, period. Then again, I can't remember the last time I actually agreed with the winner of the category, so I might not be the best person to ask.

Just watched it the other night. Did not live up to the hype. I enjoyed it, but I am completely shocked it received a best picture nomination.

Movie is hot wet garbage.

How could you be surprised it received a nom? Make a movie about the plight of the black man and it's guarenteed to get a nom.

Jesus. Is this how y'all want to spend your day?

I did really like both villians in this movie and I think it was a mistake to kill them off, especially killmonger. He was badass and would make a great neutral type character for next phase, like Loki played in first phase.

FAT SEXY said:

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OP checking in.. This movie still is the most overrated thing I've ever watched.

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claym711 said:

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Movie is hot wet garbage.

How could you be surprised it received a nom? Make a movie about the plight of the black man and it's guarenteed to bet a nom.

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Hard to believe posts like this are acceptable.

PatAg said:

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claym711 said:

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Movie is hot wet garbage.

How could you be surprised it received a nom? Make a movie about the plight of the black man and it's guarenteed to bet a nom.

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Hard to believe posts like this are acceptable.

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The truth hurts your delicate sensibilities?

claym711 said:

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PatAg said:

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claym711 said:

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Movie is hot wet garbage.

How could you be surprised it received a nom? Make a movie about the plight of the black man and it's guarenteed to bet a nom.

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Hard to believe posts like this are acceptable.

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The truth hurts your delicate sensibilities?

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You poor child. Show us on the doll where the movie touched you.

claym711 said:

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PatAg said:

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claym711 said:

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Movie is hot wet garbage.

How could you be surprised it received a nom? Make a movie about the plight of the black man and it's guarenteed to bet a nom.

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Hard to believe posts like this are acceptable.

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The truth hurts your delicate sensibilities?

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I just thought it was good, nothing special. Just not a fan of a certain tone a lot of posts are taking on the forum lately.

Maybe some of you are right that the Academy is slowly tingering with its formulas for Best Picture. It can be argued it has needed that for a couple of decades.

I think the Academy should create 2 Best Movie categories; one for enormous budget movies appearing in substantially all the theaters in the US and one for smaller budget, fewer venue movies. With "Best" defining the movies that provided the highest quality of each category.

That way a film like Black Panther can win convincingly in the first category and a more purist best movie that is a gem but didn't bring the audiences primarily because of its subject matter and/or budget can win the second.

They already tried this. They called it Best Popular Film and it failed spectacularly.