This is just an opinion, and it's not a big deal if no one else shares it, but if Palpatine is responsible for creating both Anakin and Rey, I'm going to be vastly underwhelmed.

Yeah, I'm with you, I'm just saying I think the definition is pretty clear.

For the purposes of that bet, I think you either

a) Think Rey was (at least in part) made by copying genetic material from (someone)
or
b) she was created literally any other way

Unless the movie specifically says her DNA (or some equivalent) is copied from someone else, then she's not a clone.

Why?

exitone said:

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Back on page 67 I mentioned I was reading the Darth Plagueis book. I finally finished it and thought I would drop a few more comments.

I'm not really into the Star Wars books, but I found this one a good read because it really expanded on events leading up to The Phantom Menace, so it fills in the gaps for a lot of what happened on screen. I have always thought Lucas could weave a good story, his downfall has always been the dialogue. I think this helps to illustrate how intricate a story he created for Ep 1 - 3.

A few interesting notes from the book...

• The story of Darth Plagueis takes place from about 40 years before the start of Ep1, and ends shortly after Ep1.
• Sidious kills Plagueis almost at the exact moment that Obi Wan kills Darth Maul in Ep1.
• In the book, in Episode 1, when Anakin is taken to Corsucant by Qui Gon to meet the Jedi Council, he stays in Palpatines apartment that night. Palpatine didnt really pay that much attention to him and thought he was just some desert trash. It's not until a day or so later that Dooku tells Plagueis or Sidious (cant remember which), that Anakin has a super high midi-clorian count and is rumored to be the chosen one. Plagueis / Sidious are floored at this as they did not sense he had the Force. Sidious thought back to when he was a kid and remembered he was able to do the same thing (mask his ability).
• Sidious courted Dooku and fanned the flames of his discontent with the Jedi Council to get him to leave. He finally left, and they hint around to each other that Sidious might like his services for dark side purposes, and Dooku might suspect that Palpatine is a Sith. Sidious ponders how he would use Dooku, but that he could never be a true apprentice and that he would need to focus on Anakin.
• Plaguesis did not follow the Rule of Two. Sidious disagreed with that secretly and wanted to follow it.
• In the book, Maul never really gets the title of Darth. He is just an apprentice that Sidious plans on making a Darth until he finds out he was killed. This seemed like a big error in things, but whatever...

But a comment on the book in regards to my thoughts on Ep9...


As I mentioned in my comments on page 67, Plagueis is obsessed with extending life for both himself and Sidious. They would rule the galaxy as a team without having to worry about death. He did a lot of experiments on people of different Force sensitivity. He also tried to get the Kaminos to clone a race of aggressive force sensitive beings, but that experiment failed.
Once Sidious learns of Anakin, Dooku tells him that they think he might be the chosen one, and he was conceived without a father. This stuns Sidious. He can only think of two ways this could happen:

• The Force has a way of balancing things (you see instances throughout the book). So did the Force create Anakin to balance out the mischief that Sidious and Plaguesis had been secretly constructing across the universe.
• Or, did Plagueis succeed in creating life through his experimentation. Plagueis kept a lot hidden from Sidious (which was one thing that Sidious hated him for and led to him killing Plaguesis).

So Sidious saw these two possible explanations for how it happened, but is unsure of which it is.... However... it was strongly hinted at that he suspected Plagueis was successful in his experimentation and created Anakin. Sidious plays it through in his mind and thinks back to the dealings that Plaguesis had with Gardulla The Hutt. They worked together a lot. Then all the sudden the boys mother (Schmi) is sold to Gardulla, who then sells him to Watto, where we find him in Ep1.

So the book almost comes out and tells the reader (but not quite) that Plagueis can create life. Sidious didn't know how to create life when he killed Plaguesis. But it's possible years after that he may have found out by digging through all of Plagueis' records. So for episode 9...

• Scenario 1: Sidious learned how to create life, created Rey, and is still present in some form for Ep 9
• Scenario 2: Plaguesis survived his death at Sidious' hands, created Rey, became Snoke (as I believe), and was killed by Kylo. While at the same time, Sidious was still alive in one form or another and we encounter in Ep 9.

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This is what I posted earlier this summer from the Darth Plagueis book on his research into extending life

bobinator said:

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Yeah, I'm with you, I'm just saying I think the definition is pretty clear.

For the purposes of that bet, I think you either

a) Think Rey was (at least in part) made by copying genetic material from (someone)
or
b) she was created literally any other way

Unless the movie specifically says her DNA (or some equivalent) is copied from someone else, then she's not a clone.

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Ok, here's what I think is my final answer...

- Rey was NOT made by copying genetic material from someone.

- Rey WAS, however, created by Palpatine.

- While Rey is not a clone of someone else, I think there MIGHT be clones of her.

In other words, I think Palpatine created Rey (and potentially a group of Reys) via the Force. But instead of doing this using a slave woman and leaving a lot to chance, this time he did it in more of a controlled environment / secret base, where he could experiment genetically.

However, Palpatine's untimely death derailed the experiment somehow. But someone else potentially took over in Palpatine's absence, and ultimately arranged for the Rey we know to be left on Jakku and grow up under harsh/desert conditions, same as Anakin.

Something along those lines. I probably have the details wrong, but I *do* believe that Palpatine had a hand in creating Rey somehow. She's not a clone of someone else, but there *might* be multiple clones of her.

bobinator said:

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Why?

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For 1, I think it's lazy. I think it's a convulted mess going from he created them, back to how/why he created them. I think it cheapens their characters. I think it makes Palpatine waaaay too powerful. Just seems like someone that powerful in the force wouldn't need decades to erode the Republic and ruin the Jedi. Or wouldn't have waited 30 friggin years to make whatever resurrection he's apparently about to make.

It's just a nonsensical mess. Again, just my opinion

New theory floated on Rule of 2: Rey is a clone of Shmi.

If Palpatine created Rey before he died, she'd be at least 32-35 years old at this point. That doesn't make any sense. The theory is becoming more and more Winter Soldier in Siberia by the minute.

That's why I said the program continued under someone else. Same way Palpatine had a contingency for everything else and comes back in this movie. Nothing is more far-fetched than that.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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New theory floated on Rule of 2: Rey is a clone of Shmi.

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but isn't this the same thing as saying Rey is the female version of anakin?

Shmi was Anakin's mother, so no.

a child of a mother that has no father is potentially genetically all his mother.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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New theory floated on Rule of 2: Rey is a clone of Shmi.

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That explains all of Rey's awesome cooking dinner and sad-face making abilities

TCTTS said:

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That's why I said the program continued under someone else. Same way Palpatine had a contingency for everything else and comes back in this movie. Nothing is more far-fetched than that.

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Building up a military in a remote location is a job you can entrust your normal officers to do.
Where does a guy like Palpatine find someone else capable of bending the Force to his will to create life yet have that person be loyal to Palpatine even when he's dead?

It's not the worst idea, actually. Maybe Shmi herself was a clone, too.

What would be the point of any of that?

Who are you talking to?

I can't see a reason why Rey would be a clone of Shmi Skywalker. That's not to say it's impossible, it just doesn't seem to make a lost of sense from a plot mechanics standpoint.

I too am in the camp that thinks someone continued the work of the emperor after he died and created Rey.

I'm actually kind of with TCTTS except I add a little twist, like on my theory a few pages back, I think there are others like Rey, but I don't think they're clones of Rey. I think they were created the same way though.

And then there was some kind of battle, the plan was abandoned and these various kids were cast out into the Galaxy.

bobinator said:

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I can't see a reason why Rey would be a clone of Shmi Skywalker. That's not to say it's impossible, it just doesn't seem to make a lost of sense from a plot mechanics standpoint.

I too am in the camp that thinks someone continued the work of the emperor after he died and created Rey.

I'm actually kind of with TCTTS except I add a little twist, like on my theory a few pages back, I think there are others like Rey, but I don't think they're clones of Rey. I think they were created the same way though.

And then there was some kind of battle, the plan was abandoned and these various kids were cast out into the Galaxy.

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Love that.

TCTTS said:

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bobinator said:

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I can't see a reason why Rey would be a clone of Shmi Skywalker. That's not to say it's impossible, it just doesn't seem to make a lost of sense from a plot mechanics standpoint.

I too am in the camp that thinks someone continued the work of the emperor after he died and created Rey.

I'm actually kind of with TCTTS except I add a little twist, like on my theory a few pages back, I think there are others like Rey, but I don't think they're clones of Rey. I think they were created the same way though.

And then there was some kind of battle, the plan was abandoned and these various kids were cast out into the Galaxy.

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Love that.

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And to go with someones idea ( I think it was TCTTS) that the Rise of Skywalker isn't about luke/anakin family but about Rey putting the group of force uses that are her "kin" back together, ie the new Jedi or Skywalker Order?

redline248 said:

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bobinator said:

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Why?

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For 1, I think it's lazy. I think it's a convulted mess going from he created them, back to how/why he created them. I think it cheapens their characters. I think it makes Palpatine waaaay too powerful. Just seems like someone that powerful in the force wouldn't need decades to erode the Republic and ruin the Jedi. Or wouldn't have waited 30 friggin years to make whatever resurrection he's apparently about to make.

It's just a nonsensical mess. Again, just my opinion

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Palpatine already is that powerful though right? He defeated Yoda in single combat, he destroyed the Jedi with a secret plan that none of them saw coming, etc. He was so powerful that his ultimate demise came in that he never thought someone under his influence would betray him. He was undone by his vanity, not by any incredible use of the force or something.

So he's already the most powerful force user we've ever encountered.

But I'm also basing everything on a 100% firm belief that Palpatine is not actually resurrected in this movie. I think his spirit may finally be able to contact the living world, almost certainly Kylo Ren, but I don't think he actually comes back.

I do agree that if he's been secretly amassing some secret army out in the far reaches of the galaxy that when he returns to the living he can recapture his throne then that would be incredibly dumb and make basically everything else that's happened in all of Star Wars seem pointless. But I don't think that's what's going to happen.

But I do think it's possible that something he began so long ago with the creation of Anakin Skywalker may come full circle in this movie.

Yep. Exactly.

Of all of the theories, this is the one I'm the most sure of, that at the end of this there's going to be a new group of people known as the Skywalker.

It's really the only way the title makes sense (at least without something really crazy happening.)

I think its the red color that is digital in this. Something is off. Maybe the lightsaber will be a different color in the movie but for the promos they made it red? IDK. Something looks so fake about this footage.

Yeah, like I said before, it looks like there's a bit of makeup and CGI work to her face/neck area to make her look more emaciated. But I don't see why the lightsaber color would change.

I like the way that would tie in, but then are we left wondering if every force sensitive kid in the galaxy was part of the emperors science project?

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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New theory floated on Rule of 2: Rey is a clone of Shmi.

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Dang... this is interesting.

amercer said:

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I like the way that would tie in, but then are we left wondering if every force sensitive kid in the galaxy was part of the emperors science project?

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I really hope they find a way to walk that back. It made no sense to me. (TLJ rant over)

TCTTS said:

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Yeah, like I said before, it looks like there's a bit of makeup and CGI work to her face/neck area to make her look more emaciated. But I don't see why the lightsaber color would change.

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You never know, look what Disney did for the Avengers Trailers with altering who was in a scene and what they were wearing.