Clark didn't know this was how Dany's character would end. So, she didn't get an opportunity to put those crazy tells in there through all the earlier seasons.smokeythebear said:
Ok, I've got a new argument. I think this is all Emilia Clark's fault. She never made me afraid of Dany. She never made me dislike her or feel like she was bordering on psycho. Maise Williams certainly had me wondering if Arya was truly lost. For a good 2 seasons, I thought Arya was indeed insane and Maise did such a great job playing that role. Emilia always made me feel compassionate and understanding of all the "hard" decisions she had to make. Even more so through Season 7 and Season 8 where she REPEATEDLY did ****ing dumb things because that's what her advisors advised her to do. Then she's "in love" with Jon and I like her all over again. Makes the heel turn so much harder to stomach, but it's really because Emilia Clark just didn't do "crazy ex-gf" well enough. Arya had no problem scaring the piss out of me, even after the BoW she's clearly anti-social and acting all crazy like.
****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******
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Ok here's my new thought.
Arya starts cutting through Dany's army to save Jon from being deep fried.
After freeing him, grey worm stabs her with his spear.
Jon kills grey worm in retaliation (first big kill for Jon)
As he turns to look at Dany, Arya appears behind her and slits her throat before bleeding out (she took 2 buildings, 3 shrapnel blasts, and 1 dragon fire blast, so a spear should be nothing)
Jon brings Arya to winterfell before heading to the wall
Davos rules the 6 kingdoms
Sansa rules the north
Arya starts cutting through Dany's army to save Jon from being deep fried.
After freeing him, grey worm stabs her with his spear.
Jon kills grey worm in retaliation (first big kill for Jon)
As he turns to look at Dany, Arya appears behind her and slits her throat before bleeding out (she took 2 buildings, 3 shrapnel blasts, and 1 dragon fire blast, so a spear should be nothing)
Jon brings Arya to winterfell before heading to the wall
Davos rules the 6 kingdoms
Sansa rules the north
You're going to be really disappointed Sunday night.cbr said:I get it. I also recently binge watched the whole show in the last month - so all the foreshadowing is recent to me. That may be the source if some perspective. I have also watched some key episodes twice and REALLY picked it up a lot more. I think on a re-watch my position may take a little easier.bobinator said:
It seems like everyone else is basically at a place where we can all at least agree that no matter what the writers were going for there, it could have been either set up or played out a little better.
And I've even agreed with you that your scenario makes sense if they would have set that up, but even the writers themselves said that's not what happened. So it seems kind of weird that you're still defending an idea that even the people that make the show said isn't the case.
I really havent watched the 'explanations'...but what has been quoted seems more like a 'dont spoil the plot' spin than a 'thats not what happened' spin.
redline248 said:I just don't understand this post, at all. Especially the bolded partcbr said:Not only was it totally 100% logical, but it was her ONLY chance to live.AustinAg2K said:What was the logic of burning civilians after she won? There is no logic to it. If the writers had done something to put the civilians between Dany and the throne it would make sense. If the civilians had attacked her, it would have made sense. As the show wrote it, she had won the throne without harming civilians. Her advisers didn't fail her. She makes a conscious choice on her own to turn evil for no reason. I think GRRM will make her character arc be a tragic story, but will do it in a different way. One that is "bitter sweet." Something where she has to make a choice. If she wants to throne, she has to kill civilians/burn the city. The way the show did it, there is nothing bitter sweet about her character. She is just evil now.bobinator said:
OI disagree here. I think this was always the idea, which is why it's so tragic. Dany sets out to free the world from oppression, and through a series of decisions and small steps, each of them perfectly logical in the moment, she becomes exactly what she set out to defeat.
She places good people around her to provide honest feedback, creating a council that isn't just full of 'yes-men.' And they fail her.
She tries as hard as possible not to become what she set out to defeat, but she does anyway. She can't avoid it. That's more or less the message of this whole show. You can't overcome evil with kind words and deeds. You make compromises along the way until, without realizing it, you've become no better than those you plan to unseat.
It's a beautifully tragic story, and it's been told perfectly until (for some of us) right at the very end.
She knew it '
Varys knew it
Lady tyrell knew it
Sansa and arya knew it
Cersi knew it.
Everything they all did was in clear recognition of that.
It was foreshadowed 1000 times.
It wasnt evil, anymore than any other character in the show. It was just the rules of the game.
it means her only chance to not be continuously threatened was to go full monty. now they might not dare try to touch her. if she didn't she would be continuously undermined, attacked, usurped, plotted against, etc.
varys, sansa, lady tyrell, arya, cersei - all kept saying she was not to be trusted and this might happen. nobody else believed it.
that's what the post means - not saying i agree fully. i think she is still under attack either way but..... she definitely sent a message.
Jon's gonna get an earful of "told you sooooo's" from whiny Sansa though.
I explained it in great detail on prior posts, but people probably dont want it all again.redline248 said:I just don't understand this post, at all. Especially the bolded partcbr said:Not only was it totally 100% logical, but it was her ONLY chance to live.AustinAg2K said:What was the logic of burning civilians after she won? There is no logic to it. If the writers had done something to put the civilians between Dany and the throne it would make sense. If the civilians had attacked her, it would have made sense. As the show wrote it, she had won the throne without harming civilians. Her advisers didn't fail her. She makes a conscious choice on her own to turn evil for no reason. I think GRRM will make her character arc be a tragic story, but will do it in a different way. One that is "bitter sweet." Something where she has to make a choice. If she wants to throne, she has to kill civilians/burn the city. The way the show did it, there is nothing bitter sweet about her character. She is just evil now.bobinator said:
OI disagree here. I think this was always the idea, which is why it's so tragic. Dany sets out to free the world from oppression, and through a series of decisions and small steps, each of them perfectly logical in the moment, she becomes exactly what she set out to defeat.
She places good people around her to provide honest feedback, creating a council that isn't just full of 'yes-men.' And they fail her.
She tries as hard as possible not to become what she set out to defeat, but she does anyway. She can't avoid it. That's more or less the message of this whole show. You can't overcome evil with kind words and deeds. You make compromises along the way until, without realizing it, you've become no better than those you plan to unseat.
It's a beautifully tragic story, and it's been told perfectly until (for some of us) right at the very end.
She knew it '
Varys knew it
Lady tyrell knew it
Sansa and arya knew it
Cersi knew it.
Everything they all did was in clear recognition of that.
It was foreshadowed 1000 times.
It wasnt evil, anymore than any other character in the show. It was just the rules of the game.
Short version - all the west tried to kill her all her life.
All the west refused all her efforts at mercy/alliance/marriage/friendship.
Her efforts at 'playing the game' all ended in disaster
Her success has always been violent use of dragons, plus turning the common people against their lords
The commoners and soldiers of the west all chose death and service to a monstrous cersi/king over following her.
Even after she saved the world varys tries to kill her. Sansa rejects her friendship. The lords all seek to serve jon.
The only way for her to win is make sure that no soldier and no commoner is ever willing to follow their lords against her.
The only way to live is to win
The only way to ensure that soldiers and commoners wont follow their western lords against her is to prove right now that she will burn their lord, their army, their city, and their families, if they mess with her.
And the fact that I'm so pissed at them for giving us shortened seasons so they can do Star Wars - I really don't care what they have to say. I CHOOSE NOT TO LISTEN!cbr said:
I really havent watched the 'explanations'...but what has been quoted seems more like a 'dont spoil the plot' spin than a 'thats not what happened' spin.
Butchering the quote from revelations/Tombstone here but:
"The man on the pale horse was Death, and Hell came with him."
Arya perhaps? Apologies if this has already been discussed.
"The man on the pale horse was Death, and Hell came with him."
Arya perhaps? Apologies if this has already been discussed.
It's been discussed, but I like it.Tree Hugger said:
Butchering the quote from revelations/Tombstone here but:
"The man on the pale horse was Death, and Hell came with him."
Arya perhaps? Apologies if this has already been discussed.
Don't know if it applies to GOT, though, as there is no Christianity in GOT land.
Thanks for recapping your point, it makes sense now. I'm not sure I agree, but that's ok.
Phrasing said:I want my 10 minutes back from writing my post. You explained it 10X better with 1/10th of the words.jenn96 said:
Maybe because I'm a mom, but Cersei dying terrified and bereft, all of her children dead, knowing that her baby and the only man she ever loved were all going to die was very fitting to me. A big dramatic Plot Point death is what we all wanted and expected, but instead she dies broken and scared. I was okay with it.
Haha it's season 8. I figured I needed to rush through it.
I'm sure there is a similar passage in the book of the seven pointed star, or whatever Martin called it. The Stranger is probably death, anyway.bangobango said:It's been discussed, but I like it.Tree Hugger said:
Butchering the quote from revelations/Tombstone here but:
"The man on the pale horse was Death, and Hell came with him."
Arya perhaps? Apologies if this has already been discussed.
Don't know if it applies to GOT, though, as there is no Christianity in GOT land.
Arya shoots the dragon with an arrow while Dany is riding it. Maybe it takes Jon out as well. Either that or he heads North. Arya sits on the Iron Throne as she found out that she really does care what happens to people.
lol this has to be a troll.smokeythebear said:
Ok, I've got a new argument. I think this is all Emilia Clark's fault. She never made me afraid of Dany. She never made me dislike her or feel like she was bordering on psycho. Maise Williams certainly had me wondering if Arya was truly lost. For a good 2 seasons, I thought Arya was indeed insane and Maise did such a great job playing that role. Emilia always made me feel compassionate and understanding of all the "hard" decisions she had to make. Even more so through Season 7 and Season 8 where she REPEATEDLY did ****ing dumb things because that's what her advisors advised her to do. Then she's "in love" with Jon and I like her all over again. Makes the heel turn so much harder to stomach, but it's really because Emilia Clark just didn't do "crazy ex-gf" well enough. Arya had no problem scaring the piss out of me, even after the BoW she's clearly anti-social and acting all crazy like.
Its a fun discusion. I laid out some 'supporting evidence' bf.redline248 said:
Thanks for recapping your point, it makes sense now. I'm not sure I agree, but that's ok.
Regarding Arya, I made the comment up thread that I hoped she had decided to let go of revenge and fight for her living family, instead of her dead. Something I just thought of was when Sandor told her not to be like him, and she just looked at him and then thanked him. I assumed on Sunday that she was letting go of her list, but I wonder now if she heard and what he said and was really thinking "I DO want to be like him - a protector. Someone who keeps others safe." The Hound was no saint, and he was a killer, but he protected Arya to the end. Even against the fire and the dead.
I think arya is a favorite so they wont give her a bitter end. But given the theme of got, and the foreshadowing, seems like she is destined to get burned and/or blinded trying to kill danarys -jenn96 said:
Regarding Arya, I made the comment up thread that I hoped she had decided to let go of revenge and fight for her living family, instead of her dead. Something I just thought of was when Sandor told her not to be like him, and she just looked at him and then thanked him. I assumed on Sunday that she was letting go of her list, but I wonder now if she heard and what he said and was really thinking "I DO want to be like him - a protector. Someone who keeps others safe." The Hound was no saint, and he was a killer, but he protected Arya to the end. Even against the fire and the dead.
The argument should probably be dropped at this point, because both sides have been presented and it's clear there is a fundamental disagreement about what the reaction of everyone will be. I, and others, think her actions will basically make it so everyone will now want her dead and she'll never be able to sleep with both eyes closed.cbr said:
The only way to ensure that soldiers and commoners wont follow their western lords against her is to prove right now that she will burn their lord, their army, their city, and their families, if they mess with her.
All righty then - I'm signing off - this wins the internet for today. touche.jenn96 said:Phrasing said:I want my 10 minutes back from writing my post. You explained it 10X better with 1/10th of the words.jenn96 said:
Maybe because I'm a mom, but Cersei dying terrified and bereft, all of her children dead, knowing that her baby and the only man she ever loved were all going to die was very fitting to me. A big dramatic Plot Point death is what we all wanted and expected, but instead she dies broken and scared. I was okay with it.
Haha it's season 8. I figured I needed to rush through it.
I think I would have like Arya leaving if it had been a moment where she saw people getting burned, and she made the decision to go help the living vs living in the past. However, the way it was written, she didn't seem to be going to help anyone at first. It wasn't until after she left that she saw the destruction around her.jenn96 said:
Regarding Arya, I made the comment up thread that I hoped she had decided to let go of revenge and fight for her living family, instead of her dead. Something I just thought of was when Sandor told her not to be like him, and she just looked at him and then thanked him. I assumed on Sunday that she was letting go of her list, but I wonder now if she heard and what he said and was really thinking "I DO want to be like him - a protector. Someone who keeps others safe." The Hound was no saint, and he was a killer, but he protected Arya to the end. Even against the fire and the dead.
Everyone already wanted her dead.AustinAg2K said:The argument should probably be dropped at this point, because both sides have been presented and it's clear there is a fundamental disagreement about what the reaction of everyone will be. I, and others, think her actions will basically make it so everyone will now want her dead and she'll never be able to sleep with both eyes closed.cbr said:
The only way to ensure that soldiers and commoners wont follow their western lords against her is to prove right now that she will burn their lord, their army, their city, and their families, if they mess with her.
Lol, some ass told me a spoiler today, if true then i probably will.bangobango said:You're going to be really disappointed Sunday night.cbr said:I get it. I also recently binge watched the whole show in the last month - so all the foreshadowing is recent to me. That may be the source if some perspective. I have also watched some key episodes twice and REALLY picked it up a lot more. I think on a re-watch my position may take a little easier.bobinator said:
It seems like everyone else is basically at a place where we can all at least agree that no matter what the writers were going for there, it could have been either set up or played out a little better.
And I've even agreed with you that your scenario makes sense if they would have set that up, but even the writers themselves said that's not what happened. So it seems kind of weird that you're still defending an idea that even the people that make the show said isn't the case.
I really havent watched the 'explanations'...but what has been quoted seems more like a 'dont spoil the plot' spin than a 'thats not what happened' spin.
Except Jon (and he still runs the North - for now)cbr said:Everyone already wanted her dead.AustinAg2K said:The argument should probably be dropped at this point, because both sides have been presented and it's clear there is a fundamental disagreement about what the reaction of everyone will be. I, and others, think her actions will basically make it so everyone will now want her dead and she'll never be able to sleep with both eyes closed.cbr said:
The only way to ensure that soldiers and commoners wont follow their western lords against her is to prove right now that she will burn their lord, their army, their city, and their families, if they mess with her.
Except Dorne (who took her side)
Except the Iron Islands (taken back by Yara who pledged to her)
Those are the only major players left. She would have also had allegiance from the Vale, Storm's End, whomever she gives Highgarden and the Riverlands to.
Now, none of those people will want to see her in charge. Probably.
I don't think it takes some kind of 'A beautiful mind' codebreaking ability to see what was coming, but I also did a rewatch before this season started.
And like I said, your theory is fine, it makes perfect sense. But on the show we didn't see a single indicator that Dany was willing to torch the civilians after they had already surrendered. So that's why for some us it just seemed like a huge leap forward.
Do you not agree that some kind of scene could have helped that moment? It wouldn't even need to be blatant. She doesn't have to say "we're killing everyone, no matter what," but you don't think it would have been nice to at least see her dismiss the idea that surrender was even possible or something?
Also I don't see how you can just dismiss what the writers of the show said. I mean, they write the show...
And like I said, your theory is fine, it makes perfect sense. But on the show we didn't see a single indicator that Dany was willing to torch the civilians after they had already surrendered. So that's why for some us it just seemed like a huge leap forward.
Do you not agree that some kind of scene could have helped that moment? It wouldn't even need to be blatant. She doesn't have to say "we're killing everyone, no matter what," but you don't think it would have been nice to at least see her dismiss the idea that surrender was even possible or something?
Also I don't see how you can just dismiss what the writers of the show said. I mean, they write the show...
Brian Earl Spilner said:
Prepare for heart ache
bangobango said:Clark didn't know this was how Dany's character would end. So, she didn't get an opportunity to put those crazy tells in there through all the earlier seasons.smokeythebear said:
Ok, I've got a new argument. I think this is all Emilia Clark's fault. She never made me afraid of Dany. She never made me dislike her or feel like she was bordering on psycho. Maise Williams certainly had me wondering if Arya was truly lost. For a good 2 seasons, I thought Arya was indeed insane and Maise did such a great job playing that role. Emilia always made me feel compassionate and understanding of all the "hard" decisions she had to make. Even more so through Season 7 and Season 8 where she REPEATEDLY did ****ing dumb things because that's what her advisors advised her to do. Then she's "in love" with Jon and I like her all over again. Makes the heel turn so much harder to stomach, but it's really because Emilia Clark just didn't do "crazy ex-gf" well enough. Arya had no problem scaring the piss out of me, even after the BoW she's clearly anti-social and acting all crazy like.
I saw a deal comparing it to Alan Rickman playing Severus Snape in Harry Potter. J.K. Rowling told Alan Rickman about the little twist at the end of HP7 before she finished the books and he incorporated that into his acting during the films.
Emilia never knew about this because nobody else did either. No way could she portray what was probably needed in advance of the final season
Just watched 7-6, nursing a headache after a hair on fire day since 5 am.
Great episode, hound and tormond were hilarious.
But literally the whole dialogue in danys head as the bells rang - that we've been arguing about, pros and con - was recited in that episode alone. Fascinating.
As far as 'could it have been signaled better', probably. But again I sort of appreciate the subtlety. And again, now that I have decided On my little theory, a rewatch REALLY tees it up, IMO.
Great episode, hound and tormond were hilarious.
But literally the whole dialogue in danys head as the bells rang - that we've been arguing about, pros and con - was recited in that episode alone. Fascinating.
As far as 'could it have been signaled better', probably. But again I sort of appreciate the subtlety. And again, now that I have decided On my little theory, a rewatch REALLY tees it up, IMO.
I'll admit I admire your commitment to just ignoring what the writers have said and going with what makes the most sense to you. I was/am so annoyed by how they handled it that it never occurred to me to just make up a scenario that I like better and pretend that's how they meant to do it the whole time.
bobinator said:
I'll admit I admire your commitment to just ignoring what the writers have said and going with what makes the most sense to you. I was/am so annoyed by how they handled it that it never occurred to me to just make up a scenario that I like better and pretend that's how they meant to do it the whole time.
MAybe that's what I've done. Or maybe my idea will resonate over time. I think the latter. But the former works for me too. Like I said , I haven't bothered to watch any 'explanations'
I've decided to just accept that the plot points are given by Martin, and that I just need to pretend they provided enough backstory and nuance for these moments to feel authentic.
Here's a real life thought about an imaginary situation: Danerys has pissed off everyone-ish from Westeros still alive (iron islands and Dorne possibly excluded). What she has misunderstood is that she cannot rule Westeros by herself. She needs a city-full of administrators, clerks, etc and a leadership group so that she doesn't have to make every stinking decision. So, what does she have - an inner circle that wants to gtfo, a continent of people wanting nothing to do with her, and NO family structure (like the Lannister's once had). Which means that if the leaders still alive that came with her (minus probably grey worm) say "not gonna help you - afraid of you - cya" - she is totally fooked. If logic prevails she will have to fly back to Mereen and have the iron born ferry back the unsullied and Dothraki that don't want to stay. My guess is that the show runners won't deal with this logic issue and will just have her killed. New rockstars suggests that she may already be poisoned (by Varys)
Disagree with that conclusion - always enough bronns grey worms and missandres to help run things. But fascinated by her being poisoned already. She looked it. And that would be tragic.
But i honestly dont think shed have burned them all if she thought she was dying anyway, unless she thought she needed to to save jon.
But i honestly dont think shed have burned them all if she thought she was dying anyway, unless she thought she needed to to save jon.
Brian Earl Spilner said:
I thought it was implied that his pipes and not his laying of pipe was what did the deed.
"Peace. Do you think that's what we had under your father, or his, or his? Peace never lasts my dear.
Will you take a bit of advice from an old woman?
He's a clever man, your hand. I've known a great many clever men. I've outlived them all. You know why?
I ignored them. The Lords of Westeros are sheep.... are you a sheep?
No. You're a Dragon....BE A DRAGON."
-- Olenna
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