Goes full Denethor and jumps off of DrogonBrian Earl Spilner said:
Maybe Dany commits suicide. Spares Jon the pain of having to do it himself.
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Brian Earl Spilner said:
Pretty good post I saw on reddit.Quote:
Two reasons explaining why Dany's transition has GRRM all over it
These aren't the only two, there are many, but I'm just making sure these are thrown in to the mix.
The first one I'm sure many people have noticed is the way GRRM enjoys writing who characters who are both good and bad characters simultaneously. I remember hearing GRRM criticize Lord of the Rings by pointing out that the good guys are so superhero like and bad guys are all ugly monsters. GRRM doesn't do this, it's part of his genius understanding of the human heart. First you hated Jaime, then he's not such a bad guy. Sansa was innocent, then she has this touch of darkness and maybe evil. Cersei even had a very human side in her love for her kids. The hound was bad, then became somewhat redeemed when he met up with Beric and those guys, but unfortunately he still clung to his thirst for revenge. The idea that people are both good and bad simultaneously is all through the series, and he is constantly playing with our assessments and judgments of the characters, so it's not surprising that the final crescendo includes this element.
I'm sure people have noticed this this second one, but I don't think I've seen it mentioned. It's the way that GRRM plays with the human need for revenge and justice. I've noticed 2 times (one just in the book) where there was the following pattern: he gets the reader to really hate one particular character, such as Theon. As you read, your sense of justice demands to see this guy get punished, and GRRM obviously knows that, but he gives you a bit of a mixed package. So Theon gets captured, and as you read/watch, that part of you that demands justice says "yes! finally! take that!" BUT.... it keeps on going and going, until you say "ok I think he's learned his lesson, maybe ease off a bit" but it doesn't stop. His punishment just doesn't end (much worse in the books).
One other time this happens in the books I've noticed is Vargo Hoat, the guy who cuts off Jaime's hand. He gets probably the most gruesome death in the series, and what's interesting here is Jaime himself says something to the effect of how the sweetness of revenge was kind of spoiled by how excessive it was.
Danys transition includes this. You want more than anything in the universe for Cersei to be punished. And so she is, and you go 'yeah!' but again, it doesn't stop. it keeps going and going until you say "enough, I think they've learned their lesson" but it just keeps going.
It would have been great if her transition wasn't so rushed, but IMO it has GRRM all over it.
That's pretty good, but killing all those people didn't punish Cersei, in my opinion. She didn't care about those people in the streets.
I guess this all comes down to differing opinions. For you and others it was too rushed. For myself and others, all the signs were there including supporting characters taking extreme steps to counter what they saw coming. And if it ever was going to truly happen, it would happen during the inertia of battle when she and her side had clearly won and retribution was there to be handed out.powerbelly said:gigemJTH12 said:
Also, on a much more shallow and obvious level, no way Benioff and Weiss make that call to turn her mad without GRRM telling them too. Because no way the books stray THAT far from the show. GRRM almost assuredly gave them the input that Dany goes full mad, if nothing else.
I think we are all fine with the turn, it is the rush that kills it.
You are so right. The fact that they cut it short when they didn't have to is almost criminal. I didn't feel so strongly about it until now. With so much left to do and no time to do it. The interface between KL and Winterfell alone makes the fact that we have one episode left pretty ****in stupid. As rushed as some things have felt, Sansa finding out and reacting to what happened last week, is going to be absolutely terrible TV relative to what it could be.
powerbelly said:gigemJTH12 said:
Also, on a much more shallow and obvious level, no way Benioff and Weiss make that call to turn her mad without GRRM telling them too. Because no way the books stray THAT far from the show. GRRM almost assuredly gave them the input that Dany goes full mad, if nothing else.
I think we are all fine with the turn, it is the rush that kills it.
This so much. Now people off this board are pissed about it, but I think most on this board are fine with the heel turn, it's the way it was done that people don't like (and I think even people who are okay with the episode would admit that part was very poorly executed).
Quote:
What has Ellaria been up to?
Exactly. There is no rational for destroying the entire city and killing all the people as an act of revenge on Cersei. She couldn't care less. The only rationale I could see is that Dany sees it as the city that betrayed her family.bangobango said:Brian Earl Spilner said:
Pretty good post I saw on reddit.Quote:
Two reasons explaining why Dany's transition has GRRM all over it
These aren't the only two, there are many, but I'm just making sure these are thrown in to the mix.
The first one I'm sure many people have noticed is the way GRRM enjoys writing who characters who are both good and bad characters simultaneously. I remember hearing GRRM criticize Lord of the Rings by pointing out that the good guys are so superhero like and bad guys are all ugly monsters. GRRM doesn't do this, it's part of his genius understanding of the human heart. First you hated Jaime, then he's not such a bad guy. Sansa was innocent, then she has this touch of darkness and maybe evil. Cersei even had a very human side in her love for her kids. The hound was bad, then became somewhat redeemed when he met up with Beric and those guys, but unfortunately he still clung to his thirst for revenge. The idea that people are both good and bad simultaneously is all through the series, and he is constantly playing with our assessments and judgments of the characters, so it's not surprising that the final crescendo includes this element.
I'm sure people have noticed this this second one, but I don't think I've seen it mentioned. It's the way that GRRM plays with the human need for revenge and justice. I've noticed 2 times (one just in the book) where there was the following pattern: he gets the reader to really hate one particular character, such as Theon. As you read, your sense of justice demands to see this guy get punished, and GRRM obviously knows that, but he gives you a bit of a mixed package. So Theon gets captured, and as you read/watch, that part of you that demands justice says "yes! finally! take that!" BUT.... it keeps on going and going, until you say "ok I think he's learned his lesson, maybe ease off a bit" but it doesn't stop. His punishment just doesn't end (much worse in the books).
One other time this happens in the books I've noticed is Vargo Hoat, the guy who cuts off Jaime's hand. He gets probably the most gruesome death in the series, and what's interesting here is Jaime himself says something to the effect of how the sweetness of revenge was kind of spoiled by how excessive it was.
Danys transition includes this. You want more than anything in the universe for Cersei to be punished. And so she is, and you go 'yeah!' but again, it doesn't stop. it keeps going and going until you say "enough, I think they've learned their lesson" but it just keeps going.
It would have been great if her transition wasn't so rushed, but IMO it has GRRM all over it.
That's pretty good, but killing all those people didn't punish Cersei, in my opinion. She didn't care about those people in the streets.
7nine
M.C. Swag said:
Things they have to convey in 80 min:
- Show the fallout from the previous episode
- Dany has to fall in some satisfying (non contrived) way - I'm sure it'll be a ninja jump from Arya
- Survivors travel back to WF to report on events
- Conclude story with glimpse of future Westeros
^All of that is what they HAVE to do. There's all kinds of smaller nuanced stuff I'd still want to see (ANY explanation on what Bran is, does, or will do. Tyrion's reaction to being the worst advisor ever. Some closure on Yara about her brothers death. What has Ellaria been up to? Is Edmure still around? Etc)
We can all argue about the merits of the season as whole so far but I don't see how they can squeeze all the required beats into 80 min in a way that feels organic or satisfactory. The decision by D&D to microwave the most important conclusion in literary and televised history is an abomination.
I'm with you about the stuff that has to happen. One potential shortcut is that since Varys almost surely got a few ravens off (it was at least daytime to night between him talking to the girl and and getting arrested), he probably sent one to Sansa among other lords. It's entirely possible that while Dani's army marched from Dragonstone to KL, Sansa and the north - along with any other allies - have been marching south as well. Dumb, since they'd be crazy to leave WF to confront Dani, but dumb decisions are how we roll now. And since Westerosi soldiers travel at Mach 3 they could be there soon. So that compresses the canvass. I think that would be terrible writing but then I repeat myself.
Go back and watch the last 2 seasons -- there has been plenty of time for D&D to tell/elaborate the story.
Instead we got extended scenes that served little to no purpose in the story. An entire episode was devoted to the build up to "The Long Night" and it served as no more than a reunion episode to retell most of the same stories we already knew and have characters make decisions that ultimately did not impact the story.
Unless Gendry is going to play a major role in the last episode, did we really need the scenes with him and Arya? I might have understood it if it was a lead up to her finding her heart again and ceasing to be a cold-blooded killer... But nope, she's right back at it in 'The Long Night'.
Unless Brienne is going to play a major role in the last episode, the scenes with her and Jaime were completely extraneous. It's already been well established her and Jaime have a bond. It's already been well established that she is part of what turned Jaime "good". Him "breaking bad" again to go back to Cersei wasn't impacted by him and Brienne's added scenes, it was already established.
Unless Tyrion is going to make some big reveal of info he gleaned from his conversation with Bran in the last episode, then those scenes served no real purpose.
Maybe cutting out one of 17,000 Tormund/Brienne jokes might have saved some time too.
The character development and stories haven't suffered because the writers were rushed. They suffered because the writers simply didn't do a good job of writing.
Instead we got extended scenes that served little to no purpose in the story. An entire episode was devoted to the build up to "The Long Night" and it served as no more than a reunion episode to retell most of the same stories we already knew and have characters make decisions that ultimately did not impact the story.
Unless Gendry is going to play a major role in the last episode, did we really need the scenes with him and Arya? I might have understood it if it was a lead up to her finding her heart again and ceasing to be a cold-blooded killer... But nope, she's right back at it in 'The Long Night'.
Unless Brienne is going to play a major role in the last episode, the scenes with her and Jaime were completely extraneous. It's already been well established her and Jaime have a bond. It's already been well established that she is part of what turned Jaime "good". Him "breaking bad" again to go back to Cersei wasn't impacted by him and Brienne's added scenes, it was already established.
Unless Tyrion is going to make some big reveal of info he gleaned from his conversation with Bran in the last episode, then those scenes served no real purpose.
Maybe cutting out one of 17,000 Tormund/Brienne jokes might have saved some time too.
The character development and stories haven't suffered because the writers were rushed. They suffered because the writers simply didn't do a good job of writing.
I was thinking about this last night...remember that scene in the battle last season where everyone & their horses are running in like ankle deep water and battling, then when Drogon goes in for the flames Jamie is thrown off his horse and falls in ~30 feet deep water?
Everyone just had a jovial laugh at the time. We should have known right then these jokers had mailed it in.
Everyone just had a jovial laugh at the time. We should have known right then these jokers had mailed it in.
Proposition Joe said:
Go back and watch the last 2 seasons -- there has been plenty of time for D&D to tell/elaborate the story.
Instead we got extended scenes that served little to no purpose in the story. An entire episode was devoted to the build up to "The Long Night" and it served as no more than a reunion episode to retell most of the same stories we already knew and have characters make decisions that ultimately did not impact the story.
Unless Gendry is going to play a major role in the last episode, did we really need the scenes with him and Arya? I might have understood it if it was a lead up to her finding her heart again and ceasing to be a cold-blooded killer... But nope, she's right back at it in 'The Long Night'.
Unless Brienne is going to play a major role in the last episode, the scenes with her and Jaime were completely extraneous. It's already been well established her and Jaime have a bond. It's already been well established that she is part of what turned Jaime "good". Him "breaking bad" again to go back to Cersei wasn't impacted by him and Brienne's added scenes, it was already established.
Unless Tyrion is going to make some big reveal of info he gleaned from his conversation with Bran in the last episode, then those scenes served no real purpose.
Maybe cutting out one of 17,000 Tormund/Brienne jokes might have saved some time too.
The character development and stories haven't suffered because the writers were rushed. They suffered because the writers simply didn't do a good job of writing.
This is a good point. Things have felt compressed because writers felt need to write things for "loved" characters to do who were pass their usefulness for the actual plot. Example - Bronn. Totally did not need him to show up at all this series, but they have to throw him in there so we get that debacle that was his meet up with Jaime and Tyrion.
Other examples - Brienne and Jaime having sex, completely unnecessary and really cheapened their relationship, especially when Jaime wham bam thank you mammed her.
Gentry scenes.
The entire order of the long night battle and battle at Kings landing - done so all the main characters are in all six episodes rather than just first three.
Yeah. That kind of stuff is impossible to defend. What was otherwise a darn perfect episode has such a ridiculous ending. Not only does the water go from ankle deep to 30' in a span of 10' or less but somehow Bronn is able to swim Jamie underwater in full armor far enough away to avoid detection from the Dothraki.Bunk Moreland said:
I was thinking about this last night...remember that scene in the battle last season where everyone & their horses are running in like ankle deep water and battling, then when Drogon goes in for the flames Jamie is thrown off his horse and falls in ~30 feet deep water?
Everyone just had a jovial laugh at the time. We should have known right then these jokers had mailed it in.
That's just a head scratcher to me. No one in the creative process raises a hand and says "wait, that's pretty lame, lets try to come up with something better".
They had to obey the "Q ratings."
Spot freaking on. Can't believe those jokers admitted that they wrote in certain things because of how the associated characters grades out with audiences.
Here's a clue guys: what really grades out well is the character development THAT WAS WRITTEN FOR YOU and not using characters as simple plot devices and fan favorites.
Here's a clue guys: what really grades out well is the character development THAT WAS WRITTEN FOR YOU and not using characters as simple plot devices and fan favorites.
Do you remember who/where this was said? The more I think about it, the more I am mind blown that someone actually said that for public consumption
GRRM said it in an interview. Can't recall the specific one.Lester Freamon said:
Do you remember who/where this was said? The more I think about it, the more I am mind blown that someone actually said that for public consumption
Would love to follow the thread but I have no clue who anyone is responding to anymore
Sorry to beat a dead horse again, but that's what's so frustrating. Why in the hell did D&D decide that they could do it in 13 episodes?? Is it the Star Wars thing? I really think they made the wrong choice and their career and legacy will take a hit from rushing this ending. Why do 13 when you could have had 30? 30 may have been too many, but at least 20 would have made it better.gigemJTH12 said:
Definitely rushed and that much is nearly undeniable.
Lester Freamon said:
Do you remember who/where this was said? The more I think about it, the more I am mind blown that someone actually said that for public consumption
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/1123230/Game-of-Thrones-George-RR-Martin-HBO-ending-books-change-differences-Iron-Throne-die/amp
Phrasing said:Sorry to beat a dead horse again, but that's what's so frustrating. Why in the hell did D&D decide that they could do it in 13 episodes?? Is it the Star Wars thing? I really think they made the wrong choice and their career and legacy will take a hit from rushing this ending. Why do 13 when you could have had 30? 30 may have been too many, but at least 20 would have made it better.gigemJTH12 said:
Definitely rushed and that much is nearly undeniable.
Their value will never be higher than it was six weeks ago. They are cashing in. Besides, if they kept going with this and drug it out more and the writing was this bad, then their value would be zero by the end of the series. At least this way they can blame it on compressed timing.
It is 100% Star Wars. Disney sets the schedule.
They have also been working on "Confederate" since 2017 for HBO. Not sure Mickey is going to allow that now that Star Wars is on the books.
Don't quote me, but I thought at the beginning of episode 5 they said it would be a fortnight still for army of the north to reach KL. Then Varys talks to Jon on beach and he says the army will surround KL the following day.jenn96 said:M.C. Swag said:
Things they have to convey in 80 min:
- Show the fallout from the previous episode
- Dany has to fall in some satisfying (non contrived) way - I'm sure it'll be a ninja jump from Arya
- Survivors travel back to WF to report on events
- Conclude story with glimpse of future Westeros
^All of that is what they HAVE to do. There's all kinds of smaller nuanced stuff I'd still want to see (ANY explanation on what Bran is, does, or will do. Tyrion's reaction to being the worst advisor ever. Some closure on Yara about her brothers death. What has Ellaria been up to? Is Edmure still around? Etc)
We can all argue about the merits of the season as whole so far but I don't see how they can squeeze all the required beats into 80 min in a way that feels organic or satisfactory. The decision by D&D to microwave the most important conclusion in literary and televised history is an abomination.
I'm with you about the stuff that has to happen. One potential shortcut is that since Varys almost surely got a few ravens off (it was at least daytime to night between him talking to the girl and and getting arrested), he probably sent one to Sansa among other lords. It's entirely possible that while Dani's army marched from Dragonstone to KL, Sansa and the north - along with any other allies - have been marching south as well. Dumb, since they'd be crazy to leave WF to confront Dani, but dumb decisions are how we roll now. And since Westerosi soldiers travel at Mach 3 they could be there soon. So that compresses the canvass. I think that would be terrible writing but then I repeat myself.
I took this to mean that a fortnight had passed and Varys could have sent lots of birds and lots of pieces could be moving around the continent.
In absentia lucis, Tenebrae vin****.
Like for the world?PeekingDuck said:
It is 100% Star Wars. Disney sets the schedule.
This is what I mean when I say there were a lot of ways they could have gone about it.
They could have built up that Dany sees the people of Kings Landing as her enemy, so she doesn't consider them innocent. But we didn't. In fact the whole Missandei beheading scene was her trying to show the people that she wasn't the queen who was going to cause innocent deaths. But they could have set this up with just a few lines in that scene with Grey Worm.
They could have somehow put the people directly between Dany and what she wanted. My idea for this was that Dany is searching the city for Cersei and rips the place apart looking for her. It would still be a crossover to evil, but at least it begins with a logical choice by Dany.
OR they could have set it up that Dany decides before the battle that she has to make an example of Kings Landing to make sure that nobody else comes and challenges her rule. She also could have set this up in the scene with Grey Worm. Maybe she doesn't want to tell everyone else, but she could have told him. "We're not going in, we're going to make sure nobody leaves." or something.
But they didn't go any of those directions (or others.)
So we're left with some fans who don't think the whole thing made sense, some fans who think it made sense but not in the way the directors intended, etc.
But like I said last page, it's almost freeing in a sense because now I'm not expecting anything rewarding on the character front so I just want some crazy **** to happen in the finale.
They could have built up that Dany sees the people of Kings Landing as her enemy, so she doesn't consider them innocent. But we didn't. In fact the whole Missandei beheading scene was her trying to show the people that she wasn't the queen who was going to cause innocent deaths. But they could have set this up with just a few lines in that scene with Grey Worm.
They could have somehow put the people directly between Dany and what she wanted. My idea for this was that Dany is searching the city for Cersei and rips the place apart looking for her. It would still be a crossover to evil, but at least it begins with a logical choice by Dany.
OR they could have set it up that Dany decides before the battle that she has to make an example of Kings Landing to make sure that nobody else comes and challenges her rule. She also could have set this up in the scene with Grey Worm. Maybe she doesn't want to tell everyone else, but she could have told him. "We're not going in, we're going to make sure nobody leaves." or something.
But they didn't go any of those directions (or others.)
So we're left with some fans who don't think the whole thing made sense, some fans who think it made sense but not in the way the directors intended, etc.
But like I said last page, it's almost freeing in a sense because now I'm not expecting anything rewarding on the character front so I just want some crazy **** to happen in the finale.
This is great.tk for tu juan said:
I actually thought Anakin's flip was done better than Dany's flip, which is saying something.
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Do we need to order a box of "I Miss Robert Baratheon/Hell I Even Miss Aerys II Targaryen" bumper stickers?Brian Earl Spilner said:
This is both insane and ridiculous.bobinator said:
I actually thought Anakin's flip was done better than Dany's flip, which is saying something.
Non episode related question:
Why doesn't Westeros have a bank?
Why doesn't Westeros have a bank?
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