Pretty much this. He is bending over backwards to make Cleganebowl seem like cheap, unearned fan service.
"What kept you alive?"
"Hate."
"What kept you alive?"
"Hate."
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Or disagreeing with your points and rationally debating them, but sure.
Calm down, they're trying to help you understand.
Everyone seems to be hung up on Dany's character development and transition. My view:
She spent her entire time in Essos freeing people, sure, but it was all in an effort to build up an army behind her. To gain ships. To establish power. She has no history with any of the people there and when her emotions do start to get the better of her, she has trusted advisors that have been able to bring her back down. She's maintained that she wants the throne because it's rightfully hers. Thus her justification for putting together an army to tackle King's Landing.
Fast forward, she finds out she's not the rightful heir. If deep down, what was really driving her was doing what was right, she'd back Jon. But that's not what fuels her. It's not the throne; it's revenge and it's always been revenge. And now she's perched atop the city that destroyed her family, supported a family that sits on the throne that took it from her, is responsible for the death of anyone that has helped and supported her, and has the ability to finish what her father had started (knowingly or not). Revenge and rage is in her blood and now there is no one left to hold her back. 'Targaryen, alone in the world, is a terrible thing.'
She didn't commit genocide on the other civilizations because she had no reason to. KL is not like the other cities and she has no one around her to convince her otherwise. She wants to want what is right but the Targaryen in her can't let go. She finally broke. I feel like I've seen her get to the brink a number of times. That's why I'm not shocked by what happened.
She spent her entire time in Essos freeing people, sure, but it was all in an effort to build up an army behind her. To gain ships. To establish power. She has no history with any of the people there and when her emotions do start to get the better of her, she has trusted advisors that have been able to bring her back down. She's maintained that she wants the throne because it's rightfully hers. Thus her justification for putting together an army to tackle King's Landing.
Fast forward, she finds out she's not the rightful heir. If deep down, what was really driving her was doing what was right, she'd back Jon. But that's not what fuels her. It's not the throne; it's revenge and it's always been revenge. And now she's perched atop the city that destroyed her family, supported a family that sits on the throne that took it from her, is responsible for the death of anyone that has helped and supported her, and has the ability to finish what her father had started (knowingly or not). Revenge and rage is in her blood and now there is no one left to hold her back. 'Targaryen, alone in the world, is a terrible thing.'
She didn't commit genocide on the other civilizations because she had no reason to. KL is not like the other cities and she has no one around her to convince her otherwise. She wants to want what is right but the Targaryen in her can't let go. She finally broke. I feel like I've seen her get to the brink a number of times. That's why I'm not shocked by what happened.
as against the last 2 seasons as i am, the argument that Cleganebowl was just fan service is not a good one. that was set up from the very beginning of the show. there was nothing left to do with the hound's character. his actually reached it's zenith.
You consider your post a rational debate?Brian Earl Spilner said:
Or disagreeing with your points and rationally debating them, but sure.
Why not? I'm agreeing with ZJS, and pointing out that you have to be intentionally dismissing a lot of setup that they've been doing since S1 to think this is not where The Hound's story was always leading.
I think I already addressed this. I agree that they set up his reasoning for hating his brother and wanting to kill him. I disagree with how they got him there. Again, there is a lot of "we have to have this character do this, so let's just put him there and have him do it" this season. This was more of it. It did not work in the context of the story, for me. If it works for everyone else, great.Brian Earl Spilner said:
Why not? I'm agreeing with ZJS, and pointing out that you have to be intentionally dismissing a lot of setup that they've been doing since S1 to think this is not where The Hound's story was always leading.
investorAg83 said:
Everyone seems to be hung up on Dany's character development and transition. My view:
She spent her entire time in Essos freeing people, sure, but it was all in an effort to build up an army behind her. To gain ships. To establish power. She has no history with any of the people there and when her emotions do start to get the better of her, she has trusted advisors that have been able to bring her back down. She's maintained that she wants the throne because it's rightfully hers. Thus her justification for putting together an army to tackle King's Landing.
Fast forward, she finds out she's not the rightful heir. If deep down, what was really driving her was doing what was right, she'd back Jon. But that's not what fuels her. It's not the throne; it's revenge and it's always been revenge. And now she's perched atop the city that destroyed her family, supported a family that sits on the throne that took it from her, is responsible for the death of anyone that has helped and supported her, and has the ability to finish what her father had started (knowingly or not). Revenge and rage is in her blood and now there is no one left to hold her back. 'Targaryen, alone in the world, is a terrible thing.'
She didn't commit genocide on the other civilizations because she had no reason to. KL is not like the other cities and she has no one around her to convince her otherwise. She wants to want what is right but the Targaryen in her can't let go. She finally broke. I feel like I've seen her get to the brink a number of times. That's why I'm not shocked by what happened.
That is a well thought out explanation and counter argument. I still don't fully agree but I think if they had brought more of your argument to light in the past couple seasons it would have made me support her decision more.
Furlock Bones said:
as against the last 2 seasons as i am, the argument that Cleganebowl was just fan service is not a good one. that was set up from the very beginning of the show. there was nothing left to do with the hound's character. his actually reached it's zenith.
It was still cheesy but I wasn't too bothered by it.
One of the best things about Clegane Bowl was how the Hound just cut through 3-4 Kingsguard like they were butter. Barriston Selmy would be proud.
This is a perfectly fine explanation.
The problem I have is that it's not at all clear that that was the case, so it's left up to us to decide what exactly just happened. They could have fleshed that out a little bit with some dialogue. Perhaps in the scene with Grey Worm.
But that's the whole issue, even people that agree it makes sense don't agree on why it makes sense.
The problem I have is that it's not at all clear that that was the case, so it's left up to us to decide what exactly just happened. They could have fleshed that out a little bit with some dialogue. Perhaps in the scene with Grey Worm.
But that's the whole issue, even people that agree it makes sense don't agree on why it makes sense.
FWIW I have a prediction:
Dany (Targaryan) will be Killed by Tyrion (Lannister). He will be known as the 'Queenslayer'
Gendry (Baratheon) now legitimized, will sit on the Iron Throne with support from a Stark (Jon).
Replace Dany with Aerys, Tyrion with Jaime, Gendry with Robert, and Jon with Ned. The series ends exactly where it started. We have 'Queenslayer' instead of 'Kingslayer' Lannister.Baratheon is on the throne, and is supported by a Stark.
It's like poetry, it rhymes.
Dany (Targaryan) will be Killed by Tyrion (Lannister). He will be known as the 'Queenslayer'
Gendry (Baratheon) now legitimized, will sit on the Iron Throne with support from a Stark (Jon).
Replace Dany with Aerys, Tyrion with Jaime, Gendry with Robert, and Jon with Ned. The series ends exactly where it started. We have 'Queenslayer' instead of 'Kingslayer' Lannister.Baratheon is on the throne, and is supported by a Stark.
It's like poetry, it rhymes.
AustinAg2K said:Not sure it really matters. 6.9 would make it the second lowest rated episode, and way below the typical 9 most episodes earn.Zombie Jon Snow said:Social Media Influencer said:Episode 5 was the worst reviewed episode of the series, knocking Episode 8.4 out of that place. And no one on this board had anything to do with that.Quote:
This season isn't getting a good reception anywhere, not just this forum.
where?
On IMDB
Ep 4 = 6.2
Ep 5 = 6.9
roughly same number of votes
Sure I get that - I had no doubt some even many might hate this.
Although saying most earn a 9 is a bit of a reach. there are plenty in the 8.1-8.9 range. People forget those many middling episodes like Unbowed Unbent Unbroken. But for these big episodes that's true I suppose.
And it doesn't surprise me - stuff along the way was easy to like - I think it snowed people into thinking we'd get a happy-ish ending. Most of the deaths were people deserving it.
But GRRMs vision if you will does not have clearcut good/bad guys it has good people do bad things in the name of conquest. and bad people sometimes do good things.
I think most of it is people's expectations vs. what some of us always thought this was. I have no rooting interest in Dany per se ruling benevolently. Nor Jon. Nor anyone. Although at times I thought it might go that way.
My only point on the ratings and the poll on here really is that I still think more people are liking it than hating it.
Relative to how much or how many liked previous seasons isn't surprising to me - I figured it would end badly (meaning badly in the plot).
yeah tyrion has to have some resolution. no way he survives the consequences of letting jamie bounce.
"I did not come here to be Queen of the Ashes"investorAg83 said:
Everyone seems to be hung up on Dany's character development and transition. My view:
She spent her entire time in Essos freeing people, sure, but it was all in an effort to build up an army behind her. To gain ships. To establish power. She has no history with any of the people there and when her emotions do start to get the better of her, she has trusted advisors that have been able to bring her back down. She's maintained that she wants the throne because it's rightfully hers. Thus her justification for putting together an army to tackle King's Landing.
Fast forward, she finds out she's not the rightful heir. If deep down, what was really driving her was doing what was right, she'd back Jon. But that's not what fuels her. It's not the throne; it's revenge and it's always been revenge. And now she's perched atop the city that destroyed her family, supported a family that sits on the throne that took it from her, is responsible for the death of anyone that has helped and supported her, and has the ability to finish what her father had started (knowingly or not). Revenge and rage is in her blood and now there is no one left to hold her back. 'Targaryen, alone in the world, is a terrible thing.'
She didn't commit genocide on the other civilizations because she had no reason to. KL is not like the other cities and she has no one around her to convince her otherwise. She wants to want what is right but the Targaryen in her can't let go. She finally broke. I feel like I've seen her get to the brink a number of times. That's why I'm not shocked by what happened.
Your exposition is nice. But she has become worst than the Mad King. She is not a mentally ill king hoping to ignite wildfire under the city, no she is a sane person with pure bloodlust. The had her victory with the bells. You claim she really wanted revenge, ok. But she was killing everyone, even those who supported her grandfather against Robert. She is off the deep-end.
Blatant Disregard said:
FWIW I have a prediction:
Dany (Targaryan) will be Killed by Tyrion (Lannister). He will be known as the 'Queenslayer'
Gendry (Baratheon) now legitimized, will sit on the Iron Throne with support from a Stark (Jon).
Replace Dany with Aerys, Tyrion with Jaime, Gendry with Robert, and Jon with Ned. The series ends exactly where it started. We have 'Queenslayer' instead of 'Kingslayer' Lannister.Baratheon is on the throne, and is supported by a Stark.
It's like poetry, it rhymes.
It's also "the wheel" continuing to turn.....
And if this is true but from leaks/spoilers I will hunt you down. Im just sayin.
Are we thinking public execution? You have to think that if Dany has him in her possession (assuming he doesn't escape somehow) he will get torched right?StringerBell said:
yeah tyrion has to have some resolution. no way he survives the consequences of letting jamie bounce.
"The next time you fail me will be the last time"
At this point did anything happen in E5 that would let you know Dany knew Tyrion let Jaime loose? I mean even if she knows he escaped how will she know that he was helped?
IF she does know that he did it or finds out I don't think she would kill him, but his a** won't be hand to the queen anymore. Probably banished or imprisoned.
IF she does know that he did it or finds out I don't think she would kill him, but his a** won't be hand to the queen anymore. Probably banished or imprisoned.
CFTXAG10 said:
At this point did anything happen in E5 that would let you know Dany knew Tyrion let Jaime loose? I mean even if she knows he escaped how will she know that he was helped?
Ask the 5 guards Tyrion dismissed.
I'm pretty sure the lady who just killed millions will have no problem adding one more.CFTXAG10 said:
At this point did anything happen in E5 that would let you know Dany knew Tyrion let Jaime loose? I mean even if she knows he escaped how will she know that he was helped?
IF she does know that he did it or finds out I don't think she would kill him, but his a** won't be hand to the queen anymore. Probably banished or imprisoned.
True. They could be like he escaped after Tyrion visited, but Tyrion could also deny letting him loose. Maybe just wanted to visit him before the impending battle. Without a lot of time left to explain things I am sure they gloss over the questioning and she just assumes he did it.Zombie Jon Snow said:CFTXAG10 said:
At this point did anything happen in E5 that would let you know Dany knew Tyrion let Jaime loose? I mean even if she knows he escaped how will she know that he was helped?
Ask the 5 guards Tyrion dismissed.
The Debt said:
"I did not come here to be Queen of the Ashes"
Your exposition is nice. But she has become worst than the Mad King. She is not a mentally ill king hoping to ignite wildfire under the city, no she is a sane person with pure bloodlust. The had her victory with the bells. You claim she really wanted revenge, ok. But she was killing everyone, even those who supported her grandfather against Robert. She is off the deep-end.
I still think it wasn't all her going "mad". I think it had to do with a lot of things - mainly the fact that fear was all she had left. This was her justifying dropping the A bomb on innocents. If she just took the throne peacefully when the bells rang, she would still have to contend with Sansa, the North and anyone else that thought Jon would be the rightful King. Jon already spurned her. She had lost her best friend in Missy and Jorah. She lost two "kids". Everyone else wants Jon as king. Well, "Fear it is". I think she knew what she was going to do when she went into the the battle - the scene at the bell was her doubting herself and then going through with the plan. Couple that with a bit of Targ insanity and you have what we saw in Ep 5. Should that have been communicated better to the viewer - yes.
(I know D&D said differently - but they are dead to me - and I have enjoyed this season - just can't get over the fact they turned down more episodes.....ugh)
powerbelly said:I'm pretty sure the lady who just killed millions will have no problem adding one more LANNISTER.CFTXAG10 said:
At this point did anything happen in E5 that would let you know Dany knew Tyrion let Jaime loose? I mean even if she knows he escaped how will she know that he was helped?
IF she does know that he did it or finds out I don't think she would kill him, but his a** won't be hand to the queen anymore. Probably banished or imprisoned.
^FIFY
Again, I'm not disappointed that Dany went one a rager. I'm just HINGLY disappointed about how they wrote it out. If you told me Cersei beheaded Missande and Dany turned around, hopped on Drogon, and burned the ****ing place to the ground, I'd 100% believe it.
She was mad at Cersei. Once she killed Cersei, then she could have a moment where she saw that the people didn't love her but only feared her, so she then turns full Anakin and we see real rage build up inside of her. Then I would get it. But we didn't see any hot-headed rage. We saw cold-blooded, calculated, tactical city destruction while purposefully leaving her true enemy untouched and allowing her an opportunity to escape.
Sorry, that just doesn't make sense. Why the F would Dany not go straight to the Red Keep once the scorpions were destroyed?
She was mad at Cersei. Once she killed Cersei, then she could have a moment where she saw that the people didn't love her but only feared her, so she then turns full Anakin and we see real rage build up inside of her. Then I would get it. But we didn't see any hot-headed rage. We saw cold-blooded, calculated, tactical city destruction while purposefully leaving her true enemy untouched and allowing her an opportunity to escape.
Sorry, that just doesn't make sense. Why the F would Dany not go straight to the Red Keep once the scorpions were destroyed?
Exactly - if he is held accountable we won't see the discovery.CFTXAG10 said:True. They could be like he escaped after Tyrion visited, but Tyrion could also deny letting him loose. Maybe just wanted to visit him before the impending battle. Without a lot of time left to explain things I am sure they gloss over the questioning and she just assumes he did it.Zombie Jon Snow said:CFTXAG10 said:
At this point did anything happen in E5 that would let you know Dany knew Tyrion let Jaime loose? I mean even if she knows he escaped how will she know that he was helped?
Ask the 5 guards Tyrion dismissed.
She'll just say "you let Jamie go" and we assume she asked the guards and he won't deny it and..... time to cook you.
THEN.... hopefully he is immune to fire!!!!
I want TWISTS in the finale damn't and maybe a prophecy or two.... is that too much to ASK?!?!?!?!??!
- in re: to a poster who said Tyrion would kill Dany, I don't think he would even attempt it nor will he have a chance
- that leaves Arya, Jon, and maybe even Bronn as a wildcard
- my biggest question is if they kill her what happens with the Dothraki and Unsullied? They seemed pretty fired up about her taking the throne in the preview for next week
- that leaves Arya, Jon, and maybe even Bronn as a wildcard
- my biggest question is if they kill her what happens with the Dothraki and Unsullied? They seemed pretty fired up about her taking the throne in the preview for next week
smokeythebear said:
Again, I'm not disappointed that Dany went one a rager. I'm just HINGLY disappointed about how they wrote it out. If you told me Cersei beheaded Missande and Dany turned around, hopped on Drogon, and burned the ****ing place to the ground, I'd 100% believe it.
She was mad at Cersei. Once she killed Cersei, then she could have a moment where she saw that the people didn't love her but only feared her, so she then turns full Anakin and we see real rage build up inside of her. Then I would get it. But we didn't see any hot-headed rage. We saw cold-blooded, calculated, tactical city destruction while purposefully leaving her true enemy untouched and allowing her an opportunity to escape.
Sorry, that just doesn't make sense. Why the F would Dany not go straight to the Red Keep once the scorpions were destroyed?
Boy you guys can sure beat a dead horse.....3 days later same issue.
You aren't going to get an answer. Not one you buy anyway. Move along.
It doesn't make sense to strafe bomb the city for 20 minutes while you give Cersei time to escape.clinker03 said:The Debt said:
"I did not come here to be Queen of the Ashes"
Your exposition is nice. But she has become worst than the Mad King. She is not a mentally ill king hoping to ignite wildfire under the city, no she is a sane person with pure bloodlust. The had her victory with the bells. You claim she really wanted revenge, ok. But she was killing everyone, even those who supported her grandfather against Robert. She is off the deep-end.
I still think it wasn't all her going "mad". I think it had to do with a lot of things - mainly the fact that fear was all she had left. This was her justifying dropping the A bomb on innocents. If she just took the throne peacefully when the bells rang, she would still have to contend with Sansa, the North and anyone else that thought Jon would be the rightful King. Jon already spurned her. She had lost her best friend in Missy and Jorah. She lost two "kids". Everyone else wants Jon as king. Well, "Fear it is". I think she knew what she was going to do when she went into the the battle - the scene at the bell was her doubting herself and then going through with the plan. Couple that with a bit of Targ insanity and you have what we saw in Ep 5. Should that have been communicated better to the viewer - yes.
(I know D&D said differently - but they are dead to me - and I have enjoyed this season - just can't get over the fact they turned down more episodes.....ugh)
She flew in, destroyed the entire Iron Fleet (incredible act of war), destroyed every wall around Kings Landing (incredible show of force), and decimated the remaining forces with ease. If she flew to the Red Keep and burned it to the ground, is there really anyone NOT afraid of her? Strafe bombing the city doesn't do anything.
The people that liked this episode and are defending it ARE THE VOCAL MINORITY.ccaggie05 said:The Dog Lord said:
I don't know how many people have to say it before it sinks in, but most (maybe even all) aren't really upset about her going MQ. The issue is the rush/randomness of it, especially after hearing D&D's explanation. People have mentioned that any number of small tweaks would have made it fit better.
I agree that likely most people are frustrated about how rushed things were. I enjoyed the episode and I too feel it was rushed.
With that said, there is a vocal minority, mostly on other sites and Twitter, who are irate at Dany's turn and those are the people who I was referring to in regards to the fact that they could never be pleased.
I can still get an answer. There's one episode left. I'm hoping they give her a proper Darth Vader type introduction. Show her complete transformation into blood-thirsty conqueror. Jon is dead to her, Tyrion is dead to her, Greyworm is her only ally and he won't let ANYONE get close to her again. If they have her going full tilt, then there's no way she is stopped in the Finale.Zombie Jon Snow said:smokeythebear said:
Again, I'm not disappointed that Dany went one a rager. I'm just HINGLY disappointed about how they wrote it out. If you told me Cersei beheaded Missande and Dany turned around, hopped on Drogon, and burned the ****ing place to the ground, I'd 100% believe it.
She was mad at Cersei. Once she killed Cersei, then she could have a moment where she saw that the people didn't love her but only feared her, so she then turns full Anakin and we see real rage build up inside of her. Then I would get it. But we didn't see any hot-headed rage. We saw cold-blooded, calculated, tactical city destruction while purposefully leaving her true enemy untouched and allowing her an opportunity to escape.
Sorry, that just doesn't make sense. Why the F would Dany not go straight to the Red Keep once the scorpions were destroyed?
Boy you guys can sure beat a dead horse.....3 days later same issue.
You aren't going to get an answer. Not one you buy anyway. Move along.
Except that we now know that's predictable so of course she will be stopped because the producers found something else to OP this week.
Gig-Em2003 said:The people that liked this episode and are defending it ARE THE VOCAL MINORITY.ccaggie05 said:The Dog Lord said:
I don't know how many people have to say it before it sinks in, but most (maybe even all) aren't really upset about her going MQ. The issue is the rush/randomness of it, especially after hearing D&D's explanation. People have mentioned that any number of small tweaks would have made it fit better.
I agree that likely most people are frustrated about how rushed things were. I enjoyed the episode and I too feel it was rushed.
With that said, there is a vocal minority, mostly on other sites and Twitter, who are irate at Dany's turn and those are the people who I was referring to in regards to the fact that they could never be pleased.
Nope. Try again.
Loved it - 64
Hated it - 20
Neutral/Mixed/etc. - 34
Literally about 10 of the 20 haters on this list are ALL of the negativity on this thread.
They bring the stark ability to warg from the books and Sansa wargs into drogon and kills Dany.smokeythebear said:I can still get an answer. There's one episode left. I'm hoping they give her a proper Darth Vader type introduction. Show her complete transformation into blood-thirsty conqueror. Jon is dead to her, Tyrion is dead to her, Greyworm is her only ally and he won't let ANYONE get close to her again. If they have her going full tilt, then there's no way she is stopped in the Finale.Zombie Jon Snow said:smokeythebear said:
Again, I'm not disappointed that Dany went one a rager. I'm just HINGLY disappointed about how they wrote it out. If you told me Cersei beheaded Missande and Dany turned around, hopped on Drogon, and burned the ****ing place to the ground, I'd 100% believe it.
She was mad at Cersei. Once she killed Cersei, then she could have a moment where she saw that the people didn't love her but only feared her, so she then turns full Anakin and we see real rage build up inside of her. Then I would get it. But we didn't see any hot-headed rage. We saw cold-blooded, calculated, tactical city destruction while purposefully leaving her true enemy untouched and allowing her an opportunity to escape.
Sorry, that just doesn't make sense. Why the F would Dany not go straight to the Red Keep once the scorpions were destroyed?
Boy you guys can sure beat a dead horse.....3 days later same issue.
You aren't going to get an answer. Not one you buy anyway. Move along.
Except that we now know that's predictable so of course she will be stopped because the producers found something else to OP this week.
I think there's a difference between liking the episode and defending how they wrote Dany's turn. You can like the episode while also choosing not to defend the way they portrayed her turn.Gig-Em2003 said:The people that liked this episode and are defending it ARE THE VOCAL MINORITY.ccaggie05 said:The Dog Lord said:
I don't know how many people have to say it before it sinks in, but most (maybe even all) aren't really upset about her going MQ. The issue is the rush/randomness of it, especially after hearing D&D's explanation. People have mentioned that any number of small tweaks would have made it fit better.
I agree that likely most people are frustrated about how rushed things were. I enjoyed the episode and I too feel it was rushed.
With that said, there is a vocal minority, mostly on other sites and Twitter, who are irate at Dany's turn and those are the people who I was referring to in regards to the fact that they could never be pleased.
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