****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

1,054,290 Views | 14590 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by Brian Earl Spilner
Luke Smith
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At this point all I want is

20 minutes of Jon walking in, killing Dany and telling Davos he's now in charge of the kingdoms and Jon is peacing out North.

60 minutes of Jon meeting up with Ghost and frolicking in the snow, and buddy adventures with Tormund
bobinator
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AG
Now that I definitely don't expect to get any satisfying character moments, I'm all in on as many twists as possible in the final episode.

Bran actually warged into the dragon and did all of that and Dany was actually trying to stop it, Tyrion is a secret Targ, Gendry is Batman, whatever. Let's get weird with it.
gigemJTH12
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Game of thrones fans: this season has been so predictable! GRRM always kept us on our toes

Also those same game of thrones fans: Dany flipped script too fast! They should have let us know much earlier and made it very obvious she was going to burn the city!
powerbelly
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Quote:

60 minutes of Jon meeting up with Ghost and frolicking in the snow, and buddy adventures with Tormund
This is the show we all really want.
Sky Corrigan
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My main issue is that episodes such as The Door, Hardhome, and Winds of Winter were so well written that I expected them to raise the bar with the FINAL season. All that work put into those episodes and characters seems kind of wasted by taking shortcuts to an end plot D&D decided on. I have walked away from every episode this season just wanting more which is a problem compared to earlier seasons where I was blown away.
bobinator
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This might be the first double straw man argument I've ever seen.
Gig-Em2003
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Do you know what vocal minority means? This was the worst reviewed episode of GOT ever. The minority that liked it are chiming up on this thread more than those that didn't.
blindey
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I think I go in undecided on your chart. I love it for the entertainment value but I am struggling mightily with the barrage of inexplicable decisions and actions after 6 seasons of intricate plot and character management/development.

It's like they just realized, "oh, ****, we've got 15 episodes left. Let's put together a story board through the end, film it, edit it, and call it a day."
Zombie Jon Snow
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Gig-Em2003 said:

Do you know what vocal minority means? This was the worst reviewed episode of GOT ever. The minority that liked it are chiming up on this thread more than those that didn't.

Not even close. Minority mean less than half by the way. So yeah I know what it means - do you?

Even IMDB rating of a 6.9 means many more liked it than didn't. It would be below 5 if more people hated it because you know they all voted 1/10. It's lower than previous episodes no doubt. But still a majority like it.

And worst reviewed means reviewers and just a few..... of which it was very close btw it was 33-35 when i last looked at RT.

It's 64-20-34 even if you take all the Neutrals as negative it 64-54 on here now.

Urban Ag
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powerbelly said:

Did we ever get an explanation as to why dragon fire suddenly became more powerful this episode?
Because she actually used it?

She's only used it twice before against an opposing military force and it was completely devastating and lethal both of those times too.

(not counting the two times used against the army of the dead, however it worked well there as well sans the crippling fear factor, cause, you know, zombies).
Whatever it takes
wangus12
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Blatant Disregard said:

FWIW I have a prediction:

Dany (Targaryan) will be Killed by Tyrion (Lannister). He will be known as the 'Queenslayer'

Gendry (Baratheon) now legitimized, will sit on the Iron Throne with support from a Stark (Jon).

Replace Dany with Aerys, Tyrion with Jaime, Gendry with Robert, and Jon with Ned. The series ends exactly where it started. We have 'Queenslayer' instead of 'Kingslayer' Lannister.Baratheon is on the throne, and is supported by a Stark.

It's like poetry, it rhymes.
There is no way they are going to put a character that was barely present through the entire show onto the throne not to mention he'd be the least fit to rule. Although it would be really funny if Arya goes back, takes his proposal and becomes Queen of the 7 Kingdoms over Sansa.
Episode IV
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wangus12 said:

One of the best things about Clegane Bowl was how the Hound just cut through 3-4 Kingsguard like they were butter. Barriston Selmy would be proud.
Queensguard, and let's be honest - even in the books - Cersei brought in some unworthy knights and lords to join her Queensguard and/or Joffrey/Tommen's Kingsguard. They were all spares, pretty much political figurehead "guards" with little actual renown in combat.
tk for tu juan
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powerbelly said:

Did we ever get an explanation as to why dragon fire suddenly became more powerful this episode?

Yes, they ran out of water when building the stone walls, so they had to mix in wildfire with the cement binder and aggregate to make the mortar. Did you notice the green flames?
cbr
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Here, IMO, is Danarys' perspective

why ALL of the smartest characters on the show KNEW that Danarys was going to HAVE to burn Kings Landing,

and why the show was clearly telling us this was going to happen literally the whole time:


The west spurned her family and she was a slave as a result

Baratheon was trying to kill her even as a baby

Varys and the baratheons and lannisters were trying to kill her as a slave and budding queen
She gained power by relying on her personal boldness and dragon power. She conquered the east by being good to the common people, turning them against the elite. She broke the wheel there. It worked and she was loved, as much as any ruler can be.

She came to the west, and tried to play their version of 'the game'

The same game that had gotten literally every single human playing it killed terribly, the good ones, the smart ones, the bad ones, everyone.

When she tried to play 'the game', the lannisters outsmarted her Lannister. The greyjoys outsmarted her greyjoy. The Tarly's flat out told her they knew what a monster Cersi was, but they'd rather burn for Cersi than let 'a foreigner' rule. Half their troops were still standing too. They didn't bend the knee until the dragon threatened them. That says it all.

Then she literally gave up everything to save the world. She met with Cersi and tried to bury the hatchet and join up with her.

Cersi would rather die to a zombie and let the whole world end, along with everyone in in it, than join with Danarys. And Cersi's whole court and people followed her. That says it all.

She tried to show mercy again. Episode 4 can't really be defended, but in concept, Danarys tried yet again to turn the citizens of the west against the most evil of its elite -- Cersi. But Cersi just smirked, killed her best friend, and brought in a willing mass of civilians and mercenaries to hide behind. Danarys knew that mass of civilians was the same group that was cheering and throwing tomatoes at 'Ned Stark the hero' while the most despicable human on the whole show cut his head off. She knew their sentiment, straight from the Tarly's mouths. And from watching them hide in a target city under Cersi, rather than scatter and let her rule.

And guess what? Even her own 'friends' treated her no better. After risking everything, losing most, and saving the world, she's an outcast at her own party.

She tried to befriend Sansa. But Sansa hates her, schemes against her, flat out tells her that the north and its lords will never accept a southern queen, just like Cersi's followers did, and just like the Tarly's did. Basically everyone. Even Arya. Bran offers her no sage advice. The wildlings go home (they know the game is no place for them). Her 'allies' are fighting for Jon.

Still, she even risked it all again, trying to love Jon and rule with him, knowing she would probably die if that happened. (not like Ned Stark and even Jon himself weren't already aerated by their own people) That was her last bid for happiness and to attempt to play the game. And he wouldn't even do that.

So she's alone. 'Let it be fear then.' It's all she has. It's her only card. She's flat out dead otherwise. Dragon. Dothraki. Unsullied. That's it. She has to win with them, completely, or she will die. Period. But the dragon and its ability to destroy whole cities is the trump card. The wheel breaker. She has to use it.

Who are the smartest people ever in the show? Varys? The old Tyrell woman? Cersi?

All three saw with absolute clarity that it was ALL of the west against Danarys, and it was all or nothing. 'You win or you die' as Cersi said.

Varys knows that Danarys will figure out that she HAS to burn Kings Landing, and that has no other choice. He saw her at the party. He saw what happened with the Tarlys, Sansa, Cersi, and the whole bit. He knows that she HAS to burn the city, or die herself. And he knows she's smart enough to figure that out.

He knows it before anyone else. Varys, her own advisor, broke his word to her and is freaking TRYING TO POISON HER IN HER OWN CASTLE, RIGHT AFTER SHE SAVED THE WORLD. He's already written every lord in the west against her.

Lady Tyrell knew it too. As Tyrell clearly saw, Danarys' only chance was to quit listening to 'clever men' and be a dragon. In other words, quit playing the game and burn the whole wheel.

She and Danarys both knew that Danarys will die if she tries to play 'the game of thrones' period.

Even Sansa knows it. Sansa knows that everyone will force Danarys to kill the power of the lords - that means killing the power she and jon just acquired.

The people that don't understand that are clearly bumbling fools, and it shows in their results. Tyrion has ****ed everything up for her, and betrays her twice, all in ignorance of the reality of the 'game.'

Jon is too stupid to rely on for anything. He'll die a second time in Ned Stark fashion. Because he doesn't understand the game.



Danarys can't even give up and go back to Mereen. Cersi and the Greyjoys and the whole west will chase her to the ends of the earth. They always have. They've told her flat out they would. Because of her name and her dragons, the game will kill her no matter where she goes, unless she wins. Her whole life has proven that. So it's win or die.

If you don't want to get eaten up by the game, you have to break the wheel. That means breaking the will and power of ALL of the lords. To do that, she has to break their power over their own people, just like in the east.

But the only way to do that in the west, where the people are unquestionably following these scheming lords, is to KILL EVERYONE IN THAT CITY, and make it clear that anyone following any lord against her will die -- along with their whole family.

That is the only way that the commoners of the west will not rise to fight against her for their lords. If she doesn't do that, she is dead. Period. The whole show has been telling us that.

When she hears the bells ring, she doesn't want to kill everyone, but she knows it is them or her; it's her only chance. She's tried everything else. Those bells were surrendering TO JON. The Lannister army threw down their swords TO JON. Not her. She's not 'all twisted up' because she's crazy. She's twisted up because she hates what she has to do, she's evaluating who these people are, and whether they are worth her dying for them and she decides that they are not.

So its: "burn mother****ers, so that I can live and break the chains of the rest of the west."

I can see some issues with this season, but anyone who thinks 'it doesn't make sense' or 'she just went crazy' or 'it wasn't played out clearly enough' is missing the whole point of the show.

Alas, the problem is 'the game' really isn't just a game. It's fundamental human nature. Even if Danarys wins, peace will only last until she dies or someone isn't afraid of her and takes her or her dragon out. The game only pauses. The most peaceful and prosperous period in history was when Targarions ruled under their dragons. Once the dominant force is gone, the wheel starts spinning faster again while people juggle for power.

I now understand that that's why the whole Night King thing came and went -- that whole plot line just goes to show that even Armageddon itself doesn't stop the wheels of the game, and even the goodwill that comes from overcoming the devil himself doesn't even slow it down.

powerbelly
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Urban Ag said:

powerbelly said:

Did we ever get an explanation as to why dragon fire suddenly became more powerful this episode?
Because she actually used it?

She's only used it twice before against an opposing military force and it was completely devastating and lethal both of those times too.

(not counting the two times used against the army of the dead, however it worked well there as well sans the crippling fear factor, cause, you know, zombies).
Jon hid behind a broken piece of wall a few episode ago and the fire didn't cut through it like it did this episode.

Zombie Jon Snow
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wangus12 said:

Blatant Disregard said:

FWIW I have a prediction:

Dany (Targaryan) will be Killed by Tyrion (Lannister). He will be known as the 'Queenslayer'

Gendry (Baratheon) now legitimized, will sit on the Iron Throne with support from a Stark (Jon).

Replace Dany with Aerys, Tyrion with Jaime, Gendry with Robert, and Jon with Ned. The series ends exactly where it started. We have 'Queenslayer' instead of 'Kingslayer' Lannister.Baratheon is on the throne, and is supported by a Stark.

It's like poetry, it rhymes.
There is no way they are going to put a character that was barely present through the entire show onto the throne not to mention he'd be the least fit to rule. Although it would be really funny if Arya goes back, takes his proposal and becomes Queen of the 7 Kingdoms over Sansa.
I used to say that too.... but with the field really dwindling.....it's not out of the question.

Jon - doesn't want it
Dany - assuming she dies
Tyrion - in play if he lives
Sansa - I don't think she will ever leave the north so unless they relocate the capital there it's ano
Arya - doesn't want it
.....

who's next? Gendry really.


I could see Jon now reluctantly taking it in some form.
or I could see Tyrion getting it by default assuming he doesn't die.
but I could see Tyrion/Jon backing Gendry possibly and with their backing it works.
or it goes away.

beyond those it would be really odd.
powerbelly
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Quote:

I can see some issues with this season, but anyone who thinks 'it doesn't make sense' or 'she just went crazy' or 'it wasn't played out clearly enough' is missing the whole point of the show.
You keep saying this, but it is flat out untrue. Most people who aren't satisfied do get the whole point of the show and are not happy with how it is being shown. They are dissatisfied with the result, but the how.
BowSowy
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gigemJTH12 said:

Game of thrones fans: this season has been so predictable! GRRM always kept us on our toes

Also those same game of thrones fans: Dany flipped script too fast! They should have let us know much earlier and made it very obvious she was going to burn the city!
Game of Thrones fans: Cleganebowl was such cheesy fan service

Also, Game of Thrones fans: I can't believe we didn't get Howland Reed. Why isn't Jon Azor Ahai?!
tk for tu juan
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pagerman @ work
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So what is/was the consensus around here regarding the meaning of Dany's vision of the KL throne room with the roof collapsed/missing and snow covering the floor and throne?
Zombie Jon Snow
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Gig-Em2003 said:

Do you know what vocal minority means? This was the worst reviewed episode of GOT ever. The minority that liked it are chiming up on this thread more than those that didn't.


So assuming a 5 (or even 5.5 since it's 1-10 and not 0-10) is the average rating ........

You've got ~60K at 6 or above
And ~32K at 5 and below.

Mean = 6.6
Median = 8


More people like it than don't like it. And a lot more people really liked it than really hated it. Almost 2:1

The vocal minority are the haters.




Heck if you want just take

8/9/10 = 50K
1/2/3/4/5/6/7 = 44K

BBRex
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That's because it wasn't fire
bobinator
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I appreciate that you wrote a small novel about it, but I still don't agree.

Literally everything you said is correct up until the point that she starts attacking unarmed civilians.

She wasn't attacking every single person in the city holding a sword and happened to hit a few civilians, she targeted the civilians. There weren't a byproduct of her trying to get rid of everyone in the city with any power.

This is the issue that I and others have. There are a lot of steps on the 'rule by fear' path and she went all the way to the last one without taking any of the intermediate ones.
Chalupa Batman
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

wangus12 said:

Blatant Disregard said:

FWIW I have a prediction:

Dany (Targaryan) will be Killed by Tyrion (Lannister). He will be known as the 'Queenslayer'

Gendry (Baratheon) now legitimized, will sit on the Iron Throne with support from a Stark (Jon).

Replace Dany with Aerys, Tyrion with Jaime, Gendry with Robert, and Jon with Ned. The series ends exactly where it started. We have 'Queenslayer' instead of 'Kingslayer' Lannister.Baratheon is on the throne, and is supported by a Stark.

It's like poetry, it rhymes.
There is no way they are going to put a character that was barely present through the entire show onto the throne not to mention he'd be the least fit to rule. Although it would be really funny if Arya goes back, takes his proposal and becomes Queen of the 7 Kingdoms over Sansa.
I used to say that too.... but with the field really dwindling.....it's not out of the question.

Jon - doesn't want it
Dany - assuming she dies
Tyrion - in play if he lives
Sansa - I don't think she will ever leave the north so unless they relocate the capital there it's ano
Arya - doesn't want it
.....

who's next? Gendry really.


I could see Jon now reluctantly taking it in some form.
or I could see Tyrion getting it by default assuming he doesn't die.
but I could see Tyrion/Jon backing Gendry possibly and with their backing it works.
or it goes away.

beyond those it would be really odd.

Why does everyone think someone will sit on the throne? The KL, especially the Red Keep, is in shambles. The person most fit for the job doesn't want it. It won't be Gendry, or Sansa, or Tyrion, or Arya. My prediction is the Seven Kingdoms go back to being the Seven Kingdoms. Thus, Dany succeeded in breaking the wheel.
bobinator
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That's not really breaking the wheel, that's just creating a bunch of smaller wheels.

I don't know how they're going to do it, but the one thing I've been certain of since this show started is that nobody is sitting on that throne at the end.
Zombie Jon Snow
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Which is why I included

"or it goes away" as one of my 4 possibilities. definitely possible.
cbr
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powerbelly said:


Quote:

I can see some issues with this season, but anyone who thinks 'it doesn't make sense' or 'she just went crazy' or 'it wasn't played out clearly enough' is missing the whole point of the show.
You keep saying this, but it is flat out untrue. Most people who aren't satisfied do get the whole point of the show and are not happy with how it is being shown. They are dissatisfied with the result, but the how.
maybe so, i just went back and thought about all of the things that have made it clear that she has to do this, and this was pre-ordained. basically this IS the whole point. The game burns people and cities and that's just what it does. It was subtle, but in hindsight there were flashing billboards lighting the whole road. I really like it.
Zombie Jon Snow
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bobinator said:

I appreciate that you wrote a small novel about it, but I still don't agree.

Literally everything you said is correct up until the point that she starts attacking unarmed civilians.

She wasn't attacking every single person in the city holding a sword and happened to hit a few civilians, she targeted the civilians. There weren't a byproduct of her trying to get rid of everyone in the city with any power.

This is the issue that I and others have. There are a lot of steps on the 'rule by fear' path and she went all the way to the last one without taking any of the intermediate ones.

Fenrir
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Are you admitting or accusing?
wangus12
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CFTXAG10 said:

- in re: to a poster who said Tyrion would kill Dany, I don't think he would even attempt it nor will he have a chance
- that leaves Arya, Jon, and maybe even Bronn as a wildcard
- my biggest question is if they kill her what happens with the Dothraki and Unsullied? They seemed pretty fired up about her taking the throne in the preview for next week
Eh I don't see any possible way its Bronn. Jon can be close to her considering he is still technically her General. Arya is a super assassin. Bronn is not subtle in anything so I doubt he is ever in the same room as her. Unless its to demand the debt he is owed.
ja86
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actually, if GRRM is using the war of the roses as an influence. Dany makes a perfect Richard III. Now all we need is a Henry Tudor (House Lancaster) to show up in that last episode and dispose the mad queen and take the throne. Of course Henry (red rose) married a a York (white rose) with the resultant tudor rose that ended the years of fighting.

Which character represents Henry? Could be Gendry, they both come from rough backgrounds...
Chalupa Batman
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My apologies, I read it too fast
Zombie Jon Snow
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Fenrir said:

Are you admitting or accusing?
I stopped debating the why or the motivation of the turn a long time ago - on page count.

bobinator
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I know we're beating the horse on this side, but cbr is still making arguments on the other side so I'm sorry that you're over it but some of us are still enjoying discussing it?
tv1113
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Smaller sample sizes but rotten tomatoes and metacritic have different viewpoints.

It is probably about as divisive as TLJ is.
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