aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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bobinator said:

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Yeah, I mean that's clearly what they've decided they're going for. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The city has surrendered. If she's that hell bent on instilling fear, accept the surrender, and then kill every single person in the city who fought to defend it.

There are a thousand steps between 'I need to instill fear' and 'I need to kill everyone in this city' and she didn't take any of them.

I just think it's lazy after seven years of all of the tiny steps her character has taken, that in her final act she's reduced to just 'well she's crazy now.'

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You don't understand.. she's ALWAYS been crazy. Haven't you been watching all the groundwork they have been laying down in EVERY season to show how crazy she is? If you didn't see that coming, then you weren't paying attention.

(Nevermind, nobody else predicted that ending either.)

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This is a ridiculous argument. Nobody saw Frey killing Robb, yet they laid the groundwork for it. Just because it surprised you doesn't mean the signs weren't there.

And the signs have been there.

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What ground work was laid where Frey would kill every last member of that family? I don't remember such groundwork being laid.

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Frey was shown as this arrogant man who was angry at constantly being looked over until he was needed. He invited the Starks and agreed to side against the Lannister's in exchange for Robb marrying his daughter, assuring a Frey in royalty in the north. Robb decided that love was more important than his honor as king, and Frey was pissed about it. He pretended to be ok with just marrying the daughter to Edmure.

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So the point I am making is this: We didn't know enough about Frey to know if he was capable of wiping out the entire Stark family. When he did it, it was shocking, for sure, but it wasn't outside the limited character of Frey that we were exposed to.

Yet we have spent 8 seasons with Dany. She is one of the main characters. We know her well enough to know that he is very unlikely to go on random a civilian killing spree. So if they were going to make her do so, then they needed to show us more on why she would do it. A lot more than "well she's a Targaryen" or "it wasn't enough" (as D&D stated).

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And they have, as shown with multiple examples over the past 10 pages.

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And they were all terrible. Retribution for injustice, treason, etc. are not in the same ballpark as wiping out a city and killing tons of innocent civilians after the battle was over. Groundwork for that was never laid out in past seasons.

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Well I disagree.

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So you disagree that killing a civilian who did nothing more than live in a city is vastly different than killing somebody in retribution for some past injustice?

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That's not what I said. No need to make up my arguments, I have been telling you them for the past 10 pages, you can read what I actually did say. You aren't going to change my opinion, and it's obvious from this thread nobody will ever change yours.

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Correct, my opinion will not change since all of her past kills have fallen into the retribution category until last night. Which is why it was terrible writing and why much of the GoT fandom is up in arms this morning. It's not just me.

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That's fine, I disagree with them too. Although I think "much" is too big of descriptor for the size of your group. Every casual fan I've talked to so far has talked about how awesome the episode was last night.

Can we all agree on one thing?

Dany finally learned how to make proper strafing runs. If she had used Drogon half as effectively as she did today when battling the undead army, then the whole battle would have been over in a few minutes.

It's just so blatantly transparent that D&D don't care about overpowering one weapon a week to push the narrative instead of live within some semblance of reality.

AustinAg2K said:

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WestAustinAg said:

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The Last of the Starks, or episode 4 from the final season of Game of Thrones, was by far the worst episode in the entire history of the show, and now we have real data to support that claim. It received plenty of criticism not because of what it tried to do, but because of how it was all handled. It's as if the showrunners and writers completely forgot everything that has made Game of Thrones great. The episode defied logic and common sense, brought Starbucks beverages to Westeros, and ignited debates about how it's portraying women and dealing with race issues. No Game of Thrones episode is perfect, some will say, and that's true. But I miss the days when my biggest concern with the Game of Thrones plot was explaining how the White Walkers crafted, transported and used those heavy chains to drag out Viserion out of the frozen water.


It scored a 6.6 on the IMDB ratings system and was at 62,000 votes when this article was written..usually in the mid 8's.

https://bgr.com/2019/05/09/game-of-thrones-episode-804-review-the-worst-imdb-rating-of-series/

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Interestingly, three of the lowest four episodes have been this season:

The Last of the Starks 6.6
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken 8.1 (Season 5, Episode 6)
Winterfell 8.3
The Long Night 8.3

Also, the The Long Night is the lowest rated of the "battle episodes." Those are usually the highest rated:
Blackwater 9.7
The Watchers on the Wall 9.6
Hardhome 9.9
Battle of the *******s 9.9
The Spoils of War 9.8
Beyond the Wall 9.2
The Long Night 8.3

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The current episode, The Bells, sits at 7.1. Unless that dramatically changes, that would make it the second lowest rated episode according to IMDB. Only the previous episode is ranked lower.

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The current episode, The Bells, sits at 7.1. Unless that dramatically changes, that would make it the second lowest rated episode according to IMDB. Only the previous episode is ranked lower.

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I think finale's are very, very difficult to get people to rate highly. Do anything different than what people have spent years building in their head, and you're gonna get smacked. This season had plenty of flaws, but I still have found it to be a very entertaining, suspenseful ride.

Hated 4, loved 5, particularly enjoy that hollywood happy ending yuppies havent even comprehended the whole message of 8 years of this show - and are thus mad that danarys did the only thing that was even an option for her.

cbr said:

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Hated 4, loved 5, particularly enjoy that hollywood happy ending yuppies havent even comprehended the whole message of 8 years of this show - and are thus mad that danarys did the only thing that was even an option for her.

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Hipsters, millennials, and those Hollywood happy ending yuppies all got shown and subverted! Yeehaw you sumbichez!

God, i love Texags.

cbr said:

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Hated 4, loved 5, particularly enjoy that hollywood happy ending yuppies havent even comprehended the whole message of 8 years of this show - and are thus mad that danarys did the only thing that was even an option for her.

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these generalizations of what you so badly wish folks critical of that decision or the show to be are so tiring.

You don't go 7.5 years and 71.5 episodes or whatever the **** it is by making a character one of the strongest protagonists in TV history only to have her turn full heel with 120 minutes of air time left, especially in the manner they did (and explained after the show). There's no "hollywood yuppy" to that opinion and you're not smarter than anyone else on here. We all understand what the show is and things it has teased, foreshadowed, etc.

There were zero stakes. She made a conscious decision out of nowhere to become the most ruthless person in the history of the world and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people when everything except Cersei dying was done.

And you don't get to say she did it because of Missandei because the writers said afterwards that's not correct. She took the temperature sitting on the perch and made the decision at that moment to do it.

There's absolutely zero that led us to her making that decision (spare me the mad queen bull****) in that moment. Nothing fit any transition she was having at all. I could totally see if she had been embarrassed early in the battle by some tactic Cersei had planned and saw that the folks in KL were starting to mock her or not be fearful so she was forced to show them...but no. Just a perfect military strategy to take away all defenses, bell rings by some random, troops have given up. Cersei is all that's left and she has literally nothing to save her. And then the decision is made.

Mind bogglingly stupid.

Which is why they spent the past 8 years showing what she was edging towards.

Champ Bailey said:

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Which is why they spent the past 8 years showing what she was edging towards.

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Edging towards Super Hitler? No they didn't. Not even close. Even if revenge became her fancy for what happened to her family/people, they absolutely did not spend 8 years showing that she was edging towards slaughtering innocents. That's idiotic to try and paint it that way after the fact

Bunk Moreland said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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Which is why they spent the past 8 years showing what she was edging towards.

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Edging towards Super Hitler? No they didn't. Not even close. Even if revenge became her fancy for what happened to her family/people, they absolutely did not spend 8 years showing that she was edging towards slaughtering innocents. That's idiotic to try and paint it that way after the fact

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I disagree, and have made my argument. You can read it if you care too. Calling me an idiot for disagreeing with your opinion on a TV show is over the top IMO.

smokeythebear said:

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It's just so blatantly transparent that D&D don't care about overpowering one weapon a week to push the narrative instead of live within some semblance of reality.

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If Dragonfire was this OP in Episode 3 of this season, then Jon would have been a goner hiding behind the walls of Winterfell when Rhaegal was in the courtyard. They definitely cranked up the firepower for this last episode.

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I disagree, and have made my argument. You can read it if you care too. Calling me an idiot for disagreeing with your opinion on a TV show is over the top IMO.

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I didn't call you an idiot.

Bunk Moreland said:

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try and paint it that way after the fact

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Personally this seems to be it to me. Just like they took some random quote from a few season ago about blue eyes and then reiterated it with a different inflection to mean they had planned Arya being the Night Slayer for years.

It's really easy to start with the end point and then look at the data preceding and make it fit. I see this every day professionally and it's a major fallacy.

I think the writers started this season with "here's how it ends" and then filled it in. That kind of backwards writing creates characters who make illogical decisions.

But I don't mind people having their own interpretations. It's just a show. That's the personal impression I got from watching a character develop and grow over 8 seasons and then have a very drastic change with 2 minutes to midnight.

daggertx said:

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This show is becoming the Last Jedi bad....

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No way, even 4 was nowhere near that bad.

I just am of the opinion that anyone hating her burning everything is just failing to understamd the entire point of the whole show.

Yeah I'm done. They don't want to have a discussion, they just want a ***** fest. If you disagree you're idiot"ic" (huge difference). Good luck guys. Glad to hear others enjoyed GRRM's vision as much as I did.

daggertx said:

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This show is becoming the Last Jedi bad....

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LOL. No ****ing way

Another week of nerd rage .

Weiss has no major credits before GoT. Benioff's biggest credits are XMen Origins Wolverine and Troy. I'll let you ponder their writing credentials from there.

Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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bobinator said:

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Yeah, I mean that's clearly what they've decided they're going for. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The city has surrendered. If she's that hell bent on instilling fear, accept the surrender, and then kill every single person in the city who fought to defend it.

There are a thousand steps between 'I need to instill fear' and 'I need to kill everyone in this city' and she didn't take any of them.

I just think it's lazy after seven years of all of the tiny steps her character has taken, that in her final act she's reduced to just 'well she's crazy now.'

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You don't understand.. she's ALWAYS been crazy. Haven't you been watching all the groundwork they have been laying down in EVERY season to show how crazy she is? If you didn't see that coming, then you weren't paying attention.

(Nevermind, nobody else predicted that ending either.)

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This is a ridiculous argument. Nobody saw Frey killing Robb, yet they laid the groundwork for it. Just because it surprised you doesn't mean the signs weren't there.

And the signs have been there.

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What ground work was laid where Frey would kill every last member of that family? I don't remember such groundwork being laid.

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Frey was shown as this arrogant man who was angry at constantly being looked over until he was needed. He invited the Starks and agreed to side against the Lannister's in exchange for Robb marrying his daughter, assuring a Frey in royalty in the north. Robb decided that love was more important than his honor as king, and Frey was pissed about it. He pretended to be ok with just marrying the daughter to Edmure.

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So the point I am making is this: We didn't know enough about Frey to know if he was capable of wiping out the entire Stark family. When he did it, it was shocking, for sure, but it wasn't outside the limited character of Frey that we were exposed to.

Yet we have spent 8 seasons with Dany. She is one of the main characters. We know her well enough to know that he is very unlikely to go on random a civilian killing spree. So if they were going to make her do so, then they needed to show us more on why she would do it. A lot more than "well she's a Targaryen" or "it wasn't enough" (as D&D stated).

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And they have, as shown with multiple examples over the past 10 pages.

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And they were all terrible. Retribution for injustice, treason, etc. are not in the same ballpark as wiping out a city and killing tons of innocent civilians after the battle was over. Groundwork for that was never laid out in past seasons.

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Well I disagree.

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So you disagree that killing a civilian who did nothing more than live in a city is vastly different than killing somebody in retribution for some past injustice?

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That's not what I said. No need to make up my arguments, I have been telling you them for the past 10 pages, you can read what I actually did say. You aren't going to change my opinion, and it's obvious from this thread nobody will ever change yours.

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Correct, my opinion will not change since all of her past kills have fallen into the retribution category until last night. Which is why it was terrible writing and why much of the GoT fandom is up in arms this morning. It's not just me.

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That's fine, I disagree with them too. Although I think "much" is too big of descriptor for the size of your group. Every casual fan I've talked to so far has talked about how awesome the episode was last night.

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Yep there are far more positives on here then negatives - not so with E3 or E4 they were much more negative. Of course he also repeatedly said a million died until he was corrected. Tends to exaggerate.

Outside of here - my entire text message thread group (9 people) I've had since season 3 are all in awe but nobody complained it was out of character. A few loved it, a few were stunned but still on board.

One of them, my daughter (20) - who loves Dany and the dragons said:

"WOWWWWWWW. Yeah that was what I've expected from Thrones all along!! There is my baby"!!!!

so proud. lol.

aTmAg said:

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Zombie Jon Snow said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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bobinator said:

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Yeah, I mean that's clearly what they've decided they're going for. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The city has surrendered. If she's that hell bent on instilling fear, accept the surrender, and then kill every single person in the city who fought to defend it.

There are a thousand steps between 'I need to instill fear' and 'I need to kill everyone in this city' and she didn't take any of them.

I just think it's lazy after seven years of all of the tiny steps her character has taken, that in her final act she's reduced to just 'well she's crazy now.'

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You don't understand.. she's ALWAYS been crazy. Haven't you been watching all the groundwork they have been laying down in EVERY season to show how crazy she is? If you didn't see that coming, then you weren't paying attention.

(Nevermind, nobody else predicted that ending either.)

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This is a ridiculous argument. Nobody saw Frey killing Robb, yet they laid the groundwork for it. Just because it surprised you doesn't mean the signs weren't there.

And the signs have been there.

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What ground work was laid where Frey would kill every last member of that family? I don't remember such groundwork being laid.

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Frey was shown as this arrogant man who was angry at constantly being looked over until he was needed. He invited the Starks and agreed to side against the Lannister's in exchange for Robb marrying his daughter, assuring a Frey in royalty in the north. Robb decided that love was more important than his honor as king, and Frey was pissed about it. He pretended to be ok with just marrying the daughter to Edmure.

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So the point I am making is this: We didn't know enough about Frey to know if he was capable of wiping out the entire Stark family. When he did it, it was shocking, for sure, but it wasn't outside the limited character of Frey that we were exposed to.

Yet we have spent 8 seasons with Dany. She is one of the main characters. We know her well enough to know that he is very unlikely to go on random a civilian killing spree. So if they were going to make her do so, then they needed to show us more on why she would do it. A lot more than "well she's a Targaryen" or "it wasn't enough" (as D&D stated).

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And they have, as shown with multiple examples over the past 10 pages.

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And they were all terrible. Retribution for injustice, treason, etc. are not in the same ballpark as wiping out a city and killing tons of innocent civilians after the battle was over. Groundwork for that was never laid out in past seasons.

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Well I disagree.

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So you disagree that killing a civilian who did nothing more than live in a city is vastly different than killing somebody in retribution for some past injustice?

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That's not what I said. No need to make up my arguments, I have been telling you them for the past 10 pages, you can read what I actually did say. You aren't going to change my opinion, and it's obvious from this thread nobody will ever change yours.

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Correct, my opinion will not change since all of her past kills have fallen into the retribution category until last night. Which is why it was terrible writing and why much of the GoT fandom is up in arms this morning. It's not just me.

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That's fine, I disagree with them too. Although I think "much" is too big of descriptor for the size of your group. Every casual fan I've talked to so far has talked about how awesome the episode was last night.

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Yep there are far more positives on here then negatives - not so with E3 or E4 they were much more negative. Of course he also repeatedly said a million died until he was corrected. Tends to exaggerate.

Outside of here - my entire text message thread group (9 people) I've had since season 3 are all in awe but nobody complained it was out of character. A few loved it, a few were stunned but still on board.

One of them, my daughter (20) - who loves Dany and the dragons said:

"WOWWWWWWW. Yeah that was what I've expected from Thrones all along!! There is my baby"!!!!

so proud. lol.

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Odd. 100% of my thread group were WTFing all night long and thought it was totally out of character.

(And you might want to get your daughter checked out if she gets pumped up by genocide of innocents)

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FFS what a stupid statement.

GFY

There's definitely too many personal attacks going on from both sides of the fence.