Brian Earl Spilner said:

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PatAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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I just think it's funny to still call GoT fans hipsters.

Literally the most popular tv show on the planet is apparently a "hipster" thing.

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It's pretty accurate to call the people that would go to this bar to be seen on the videos hipsters.

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I don't think you know what hipster means. It's basically lost all meaning, similar to the world millennial.

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x100000000

Both of those words lost real meaning a long time ago.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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I found it funny that the Golden Company was about as useful as an a**hole right here.

*points to elbow*

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yup. tons of talk throughout but ultimately did nothing.

bobinator said:

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Yeah, I mean that's clearly what they've decided they're going for. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The city has surrendered. If she's that hell bent on instilling fear, accept the surrender, and then kill every single person in the city who fought to defend it.

There are a thousand steps between 'I need to instill fear' and 'I need to kill everyone in this city' and she didn't take any of them.

I just think it's lazy after seven years of all of the tiny steps her character has taken, that in her final act she's reduced to just 'well she's crazy now.'

---

You don't understand.. she's ALWAYS been crazy. Haven't you been watching all the groundwork they have been laying down in EVERY season to show how crazy she is? If you didn't see that coming, then you weren't paying attention.

(Nevermind, nobody else predicted that ending either.)

aTmAg said:

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Zombie Jon Snow said:

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Joseph Parrish said:

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Because you changed it to what they represented...not what they did. They did nothing. There was no betrayal by the civilians.

Representation vs action....those are not the same.

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This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.

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If that were the case, then she has the intelligence of a 4 year old child. Which runs counter to her character in past seasons when she's been pretty damned smart.

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Wrong. The game will kill her like it's killed everything else unless she completely shifts the game and makes the people fear to follow any leader that challenges her. Anything less is suicide.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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PatAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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I just think it's funny to still call GoT fans hipsters.

Literally the most popular tv show on the planet is apparently a "hipster" thing.

---

It's pretty accurate to call the people that would go to this bar to be seen on the videos hipsters.

---

I don't think you know what hipster means. It's basically lost all meaning, similar to the world millennial.

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I guess that's accurate that it's not counter culture anymore. They are definitely posers though.

PatAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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PatAg said:

---

Brian Earl Spilner said:

---

I just think it's funny to still call GoT fans hipsters.

Literally the most popular tv show on the planet is apparently a "hipster" thing.

---

It's pretty accurate to call the people that would go to this bar to be seen on the videos hipsters.

---

I don't think you know what hipster means. It's basically lost all meaning, similar to the world millennial.

---

I guess that's accurate that it's not counter culture anymore. They are definitely posers though.

---

Please tell me you are no older than 16.

Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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bobinator said:

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Yeah, I mean that's clearly what they've decided they're going for. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The city has surrendered. If she's that hell bent on instilling fear, accept the surrender, and then kill every single person in the city who fought to defend it.

There are a thousand steps between 'I need to instill fear' and 'I need to kill everyone in this city' and she didn't take any of them.

I just think it's lazy after seven years of all of the tiny steps her character has taken, that in her final act she's reduced to just 'well she's crazy now.'

---

You don't understand.. she's ALWAYS been crazy. Haven't you been watching all the groundwork they have been laying down in EVERY season to show how crazy she is? If you didn't see that coming, then you weren't paying attention.

(Nevermind, nobody else predicted that ending either.)

---

This is a ridiculous argument. Nobody saw Frey killing Robb, yet they laid the groundwork for it. Just because it surprised you doesn't mean the signs weren't there.

And the signs have been there.

---

Not sure how people aren't understanding yet. Most people who have problems with the season are because the show had taught people to expect character development in the leadup to the shocking events that happen. It's clear that the people who like it are ok with the discrepancies and skips in story development. That's fine. You can't act like it's not missing though.

Champ Bailey said:

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This is a ridiculous argument. Nobody saw Frey killing Robb, yet they laid the groundwork for it. Just because it surprised you doesn't mean the signs weren't there.

And the signs have been there.

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i'm going to guess people weren't surprised (or were more accepting of that) because no one ever liked Walder Frey. not the characters, not the audience. but, i get your point.

aTmAg said:

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bobinator said:

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Yeah, I mean that's clearly what they've decided they're going for. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The city has surrendered. If she's that hell bent on instilling fear, accept the surrender, and then kill every single person in the city who fought to defend it.

There are a thousand steps between 'I need to instill fear' and 'I need to kill everyone in this city' and she didn't take any of them.

I just think it's lazy after seven years of all of the tiny steps her character has taken, that in her final act she's reduced to just 'well she's crazy now.'

---

You don't understand.. she's ALWAYS been crazy. Haven't you been watching all the groundwork they have been laying down in EVERY season to show how crazy she is? If you didn't see that coming, then you weren't paying attention.

(Nevermind, nobody else predicted that ending either.)

---

Yup. Her saving the women from being raped and murdered by the Dothraki... Crazy! Her freeing the slaves... Crazy! Her locking up her dragons because they killed a child... Crazy! Her saving the people from the army of the dead... Crazy!

I mean, it makes total sense that she wouldn't know how to deal with being treated as an outsider by the people she rules. She was a Dothraki, and figured out how to get them to follow her. She was also from Slaver's Bay and figured out how to get them to them to love her. Coming to Westros and being immediately treated as an outsider is something entirely new that she doesn't know how to deal with because she has no experience with it.

This was total in character and completely lives up to the times Dany told the captured Lannister army to believe Cersei, and she is planning to burn them all. It also fits perfectly when she said she wants to be Queen of the Ashes.

Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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bobinator said:

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Yeah, I mean that's clearly what they've decided they're going for. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The city has surrendered. If she's that hell bent on instilling fear, accept the surrender, and then kill every single person in the city who fought to defend it.

There are a thousand steps between 'I need to instill fear' and 'I need to kill everyone in this city' and she didn't take any of them.

I just think it's lazy after seven years of all of the tiny steps her character has taken, that in her final act she's reduced to just 'well she's crazy now.'

---

You don't understand.. she's ALWAYS been crazy. Haven't you been watching all the groundwork they have been laying down in EVERY season to show how crazy she is? If you didn't see that coming, then you weren't paying attention.

(Nevermind, nobody else predicted that ending either.)

---

This is a ridiculous argument. Nobody saw Frey killing Robb, yet they laid the groundwork for it. Just because it surprised you doesn't mean the signs weren't there.

And the signs have been there.

---

What ground work was laid where Frey would kill every last member of that family? I don't remember such groundwork being laid.

MuckRaker96 said:

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PatAg said:

---

Brian Earl Spilner said:

---

PatAg said:

---

Brian Earl Spilner said:

---

I just think it's funny to still call GoT fans hipsters.

Literally the most popular tv show on the planet is apparently a "hipster" thing.

---

It's pretty accurate to call the people that would go to this bar to be seen on the videos hipsters.

---

I don't think you know what hipster means. It's basically lost all meaning, similar to the world millennial.

---

I guess that's accurate that it's not counter culture anymore. They are definitely posers though.

---

Please tell me you are no older than 16.

---

?

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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I found it funny that the Golden Company was about as useful as an a**hole right here.

*points to elbow*

---

Anyone else feel like budget cuts made the GC a nothing burger? No elephants because CGI is too costly and they spent all the money for Ep5 on dragon fire and didn't have enough to show the GC in action so they just burn them up in one shot. If they were going to go that route they should have had Strickland see the Iron Fleet ablaze and the scorpions burning up then trot up to Snow and Grey Worm to announce the GC were breaking their contract and out if the fight leaving Cersei and the Lannister army alone.

bobinator said:

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jtstanley4621 said:

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If you believe that that represented basically the last vestage of Dany's inner circle being snuffed out, then you can allow yourself to believe that her torching King's Landing is in some way justified. She is motivated by pure hate and spite.

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I think I'd have even been okay with this if that's what they did, but the writers (who continue to not do themselves any favors) said she decided in that moment that she was going to burn the city.

Her deciding ahead of time that nobody in the city deserves to live because they stood by while blah blah blah would have been okay also. But that's not what happened either.

---

Right exactly. And that's my biggest issue with the show: I don't see how anyone can think that it's as good as it once was. I think everyone should be able to agree on that. It's nowhere near as subtle or neatly wrapped.

No worries, I was trying not to take credit for mining it. I just reap the benefits of those who do. Too good not to share.

aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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bobinator said:

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Yeah, I mean that's clearly what they've decided they're going for. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The city has surrendered. If she's that hell bent on instilling fear, accept the surrender, and then kill every single person in the city who fought to defend it.

There are a thousand steps between 'I need to instill fear' and 'I need to kill everyone in this city' and she didn't take any of them.

I just think it's lazy after seven years of all of the tiny steps her character has taken, that in her final act she's reduced to just 'well she's crazy now.'

---

You don't understand.. she's ALWAYS been crazy. Haven't you been watching all the groundwork they have been laying down in EVERY season to show how crazy she is? If you didn't see that coming, then you weren't paying attention.

(Nevermind, nobody else predicted that ending either.)

---

This is a ridiculous argument. Nobody saw Frey killing Robb, yet they laid the groundwork for it. Just because it surprised you doesn't mean the signs weren't there.

And the signs have been there.

---

What ground work was laid where Frey would kill every last member of that family? I don't remember such groundwork being laid.

---

The broader point that you're making is what I struggle with. With the previous season, there was no immediate expectation of an endgame, so plot points and occurrences could come across as more planned out.

Now we go into episodes with the known expectation that there is a limited balance of show left. Since we're at the end, many ends that were loose are getting tied up and many conclusions are being reached. So part of the complaint may really be driven by bias as compared to previous seasons and episodes.

Still, though, S7 and S8 have felt rushed and choppy.

jtstanley4621 said:

---

bobinator said:

---

jtstanley4621 said:

---

If you believe that that represented basically the last vestage of Dany's inner circle being snuffed out, then you can allow yourself to believe that her torching King's Landing is in some way justified. She is motivated by pure hate and spite.

---

I think I'd have even been okay with this if that's what they did, but the writers (who continue to not do themselves any favors) said she decided in that moment that she was going to burn the city.

Her deciding ahead of time that nobody in the city deserves to live because they stood by while blah blah blah would have been okay also. But that's not what happened either.

---

Right exactly. And that's my biggest issue with the show: I don't see how anyone can think that it's as good as it once was. I think everyone should be able to agree on that. It's nowhere near as subtle or neatly wrapped.

---

A lot of the show's defenders adopt an "all or nothing" mentality and believe they must defend every part of the show - even it's something as obvious as the decline in writing. Glad others have spoken out the last couple episodes.

aTmAg said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

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bobinator said:

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Yeah, I mean that's clearly what they've decided they're going for. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The city has surrendered. If she's that hell bent on instilling fear, accept the surrender, and then kill every single person in the city who fought to defend it.

There are a thousand steps between 'I need to instill fear' and 'I need to kill everyone in this city' and she didn't take any of them.

I just think it's lazy after seven years of all of the tiny steps her character has taken, that in her final act she's reduced to just 'well she's crazy now.'

---

You don't understand.. she's ALWAYS been crazy. Haven't you been watching all the groundwork they have been laying down in EVERY season to show how crazy she is? If you didn't see that coming, then you weren't paying attention.

(Nevermind, nobody else predicted that ending either.)

---

This is a ridiculous argument. Nobody saw Frey killing Robb, yet they laid the groundwork for it. Just because it surprised you doesn't mean the signs weren't there.

And the signs have been there.

---

What ground work was laid where Frey would kill every last member of that family? I don't remember such groundwork being laid.

---

Frey was shown as this arrogant man who was angry at constantly being looked over until he was needed. He invited the Starks and agreed to side against the Lannister's in exchange for Robb marrying his daughter, assuring a Frey in royalty in the north. Robb decided that love was more important than his honor as king, and Frey was pissed about it. He pretended to be ok with just marrying the daughter to Edmure.

claym711 said:

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What'd Euron swim 5 miles to shore as the sole survivor of the fleet attack just in time to stumble upon Jamie. K

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This is the same kind of angry exaggerations my teenager makes.

You still need to mow the yard.
What? Now? Geez dad it takes like four hours.
45 minutes, tops. Get after it.


The ships were close to shore. What good would the ships do Cersei if they were five miles out at sea? If they were five miles out why even bother with them?

Yeah I was half expecting the golden company to switch sides.

I actually thought they might be setting up a series of things where people betrayed Dany and she killed them, but their sacrifice ultimately proved worth it. I thought Varys might have been trying to send a message to the Golden Company.

blindey said:

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aTmAg said:

---

Champ Bailey said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

bobinator said:

---

Yeah, I mean that's clearly what they've decided they're going for. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The city has surrendered. If she's that hell bent on instilling fear, accept the surrender, and then kill every single person in the city who fought to defend it.

There are a thousand steps between 'I need to instill fear' and 'I need to kill everyone in this city' and she didn't take any of them.

I just think it's lazy after seven years of all of the tiny steps her character has taken, that in her final act she's reduced to just 'well she's crazy now.'

---

You don't understand.. she's ALWAYS been crazy. Haven't you been watching all the groundwork they have been laying down in EVERY season to show how crazy she is? If you didn't see that coming, then you weren't paying attention.

(Nevermind, nobody else predicted that ending either.)

---

This is a ridiculous argument. Nobody saw Frey killing Robb, yet they laid the groundwork for it. Just because it surprised you doesn't mean the signs weren't there.

And the signs have been there.

---

What ground work was laid where Frey would kill every last member of that family? I don't remember such groundwork being laid.

---

The broader point that you're making is what I struggle with. With the previous season, there was no immediate expectation of an endgame, so plot points and occurrences could come across as more planned out.

Now we go into episodes with the known expectation that there is a limited balance of show left. Since we're at the end, many ends that were loose are getting tied up and many conclusions are being reached. So part of the complaint may really be driven by bias as compared to previous seasons and episodes.

Still, though, S7 and S8 have felt rushed and choppy.

---

I think they could have resolved my complaint if they made a small change to yesterday's episode. Rather than her win the battle, perch on top of a building, get a mad face, and then go genocidal they could have done several things:

1) (Somebody else's suggestion) Have Cersei go into hiding in the city and have Dany wipe out the town looking for her
2) Have a few civilians take up arms against her and have her wipe them out. Then a few more join in, and eventually she says "F-it" and starts wiping everybody out.

They could have done either even with their rushed schedule and still would have made it 100x more believable than what they chose.

There was one scene where the smoke rising from the burning ships appeared to be quite far from the shore. It didn't really matter to me at the time but I can get how that may give the impression the ships were not right at the city.

Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

---

Champ Bailey said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

bobinator said:

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Yeah, I mean that's clearly what they've decided they're going for. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The city has surrendered. If she's that hell bent on instilling fear, accept the surrender, and then kill every single person in the city who fought to defend it.

There are a thousand steps between 'I need to instill fear' and 'I need to kill everyone in this city' and she didn't take any of them.

I just think it's lazy after seven years of all of the tiny steps her character has taken, that in her final act she's reduced to just 'well she's crazy now.'

---

You don't understand.. she's ALWAYS been crazy. Haven't you been watching all the groundwork they have been laying down in EVERY season to show how crazy she is? If you didn't see that coming, then you weren't paying attention.

(Nevermind, nobody else predicted that ending either.)

---

This is a ridiculous argument. Nobody saw Frey killing Robb, yet they laid the groundwork for it. Just because it surprised you doesn't mean the signs weren't there.

And the signs have been there.

---

What ground work was laid where Frey would kill every last member of that family? I don't remember such groundwork being laid.

---

Frey was shown as this arrogant man who was angry at constantly being looked over until he was needed. He invited the Starks and agreed to side against the Lannister's in exchange for Robb marrying his daughter, assuring a Frey in royalty in the north. Robb decided that love was more important than his honor as king, and Frey was pissed about it. He pretended to be ok with just marrying the daughter to Edmure.

---

So the point I am making is this: We didn't know enough about Frey to know if he was capable of wiping out the entire Stark family. When he did it, it was shocking, for sure, but it wasn't outside the limited character of Frey that we were exposed to.

Yet we have spent 8 seasons with Dany. She is one of the main characters. We know her well enough to know that he is very unlikely to go on random a civilian killing spree. So if they were going to make her do so, then they needed to show us more on why she would do it. A lot more than "well she's a Targaryen" or "it wasn't enough" (as D&D stated).

Is it weird to anyone how last episode the north and unsullied were tired and needed rest, and then all of a sudden they easily win the war.

What changed? Nothing in strategy except Daenerys got angry and became able to dodge all the scorpions?

bobinator said:

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Yeah I was half expecting the golden company to switch sides.

I actually thought they might be setting up a series of things where people betrayed Dany and she killed them, but their sacrifice ultimately proved worth it. I thought Varys might have been trying to send a message to the Golden Company.

---

If they had more time to develop the story that's where they should have gone with Varys so he had an impact in the end. Some theories suggest Varys was a descendant of the Blackfyres so he would have a connection to the Golden Company if that theory were true. It would have made for a more interesting ending for Varys and maybe we cod have also learned what he heard from the voice in the fire.

Champ Bailey said:

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aTmAg said:

---

Champ Bailey said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

Champ Bailey said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

bobinator said:

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Yeah, I mean that's clearly what they've decided they're going for. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The city has surrendered. If she's that hell bent on instilling fear, accept the surrender, and then kill every single person in the city who fought to defend it.

There are a thousand steps between 'I need to instill fear' and 'I need to kill everyone in this city' and she didn't take any of them.

I just think it's lazy after seven years of all of the tiny steps her character has taken, that in her final act she's reduced to just 'well she's crazy now.'

---

You don't understand.. she's ALWAYS been crazy. Haven't you been watching all the groundwork they have been laying down in EVERY season to show how crazy she is? If you didn't see that coming, then you weren't paying attention.

(Nevermind, nobody else predicted that ending either.)

---

This is a ridiculous argument. Nobody saw Frey killing Robb, yet they laid the groundwork for it. Just because it surprised you doesn't mean the signs weren't there.

And the signs have been there.

---

What ground work was laid where Frey would kill every last member of that family? I don't remember such groundwork being laid.

---

Frey was shown as this arrogant man who was angry at constantly being looked over until he was needed. He invited the Starks and agreed to side against the Lannister's in exchange for Robb marrying his daughter, assuring a Frey in royalty in the north. Robb decided that love was more important than his honor as king, and Frey was pissed about it. He pretended to be ok with just marrying the daughter to Edmure.

---

So the point I am making is this: We didn't know enough about Frey to know if he was capable of wiping out the entire Stark family. When he did it, it was shocking, for sure, but it wasn't outside the limited character of Frey that we were exposed to.

Yet we have spent 8 seasons with Dany. She is one of the main characters. We know her well enough to know that he is very unlikely to go on random a civilian killing spree. So if they were going to make her do so, then they needed to show us more on why she would do it. A lot more than "well she's a Targaryen" or "it wasn't enough" (as D&D stated).

---

And they have, as shown with multiple examples over the past 10 pages.

---

And they were all terrible. Retribution for injustice, treason, etc. are not in the same ballpark as wiping out a city and killing tons of innocent civilians after the battle was over. Groundwork for that was never laid out in past seasons.

In hindsight, I wonder if this is what GRRM was thinking about when he said that he wanted to create a character more evil than Walter White. Was Dany his plan for that character?