That's fair I guess. In my mind, there is very little the writers could have done to make her killing all those innocents make sense. Not in the short amount of time they gave themselves anyway.
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Shocked to see so many complaints about Dany going mad queen. If you thought it was going to end well, you haven't been paying attention.
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Quote:
Crazy or not she was hell bent on one thing and never letting anything stand in her way.
That's my whole issue though. The one thing she's hell bent on is now hers, and nobody is in her way, and she turns away from it just to kill everyone.
It's not really that killing those people was unnecessary, it's that it delayed her getting the thing she wants.
They built those whole thing up with subtle steps. That's why it was inevitable. An eight-year slow turn to this. And then, in that moment... that's it?
It just felt lazy by the writers.
bobinator said:I don't get how you watch this show and are okay with this. This show spent YEARS building up these complicated characters, imperfect heroes, imperfect villains, etc, etc.gambochaman said:
i think she had made up her mind to **ck **it up before the battle even started...it was evident ALL ALONG. what more reasons did you want them to give you? She realized she was alone...that someone else had a better claim to the throne...that even her trusted advisors had betrayed her...that yet another man she loved had spurned her...she even SAYS IT...'FEAR IT IS THEN'
waiting for the bells to ring was the ultimate EFF YOU...it was not what drove her mad...she was already there...it was to drive home her fury...wait until the city surrenders, then torch it anyway
it was perfect, and brutal, and genius, and awesome
And now, at the very end, one of the central characters just goes ALL THE WAY off the deep end. Not only killing innocent people, but doing it out of spite?
That's not ruling out of fear, that's just killing everybody.
Anakin Skywalker's turn to the dark side was better written.
She explained her reasonings to Tyrion and Jon, even if she didn't decide until she was there at the moment. She was put in a position where her claim to the throne was weakened by Jon telling Sansa. Jon wouldn't marry her, so the outcome of her having the fear of the common people and Jon their love was not going to happen.
All she had left was fear. She was never going to be accepted by them. This action shows she has the power to lay waste to an entire city and two armies essentially by herself. She mushroom stamped Westeros and then peed on the throne to mark her territory.
I think Sansa watches her mouth a little more carefully now.
I loved the episode. I think the season is a bit rushed but that is what you get when the production company decides to put an end to the franchise and start up some new spin-off franchises.
I think Dany was going mad from the very beginning...even though some of you that hated last night CAN admit that it seems that a fair number still refuse to admit it. In real life madness is both an internal struggle and a reaction to external pressures. As the pressure was ratched up and she lost more and more to make her prophetic Kingdom happen she made more and more hard decisions...decisions that separated her from people she could trust.
In the end she did exactly what she wanted...but it all came with a cost. This is, to me, the story of all major politicians now (and Kings/Queens of yesteryear). The more they see themselves in a messianic capacity the more things they allow that cripple their mission.
I think Dany was going mad from the very beginning...even though some of you that hated last night CAN admit that it seems that a fair number still refuse to admit it. In real life madness is both an internal struggle and a reaction to external pressures. As the pressure was ratched up and she lost more and more to make her prophetic Kingdom happen she made more and more hard decisions...decisions that separated her from people she could trust.
In the end she did exactly what she wanted...but it all came with a cost. This is, to me, the story of all major politicians now (and Kings/Queens of yesteryear). The more they see themselves in a messianic capacity the more things they allow that cripple their mission.
This episode was Jljust terrible.
I guess D&D never understood that the visuals of the series didn't make it good. The visuals elevated a great series to one of the greatest series.
But as good as the sets, the costumes, the cgi, the actors and everything else was, they could never have been good enough to lift bad writing and story telling to decent or even good.
I'd put this season in the same category as valerian and the city of thousands planets. Great to look at but terrible to experience.
I guess D&D never understood that the visuals of the series didn't make it good. The visuals elevated a great series to one of the greatest series.
But as good as the sets, the costumes, the cgi, the actors and everything else was, they could never have been good enough to lift bad writing and story telling to decent or even good.
I'd put this season in the same category as valerian and the city of thousands planets. Great to look at but terrible to experience.
Fenrir said:
Ned's army took KL I'm fairly certain.
Ned came with Roberts army from the Trident. Robert was too injured to immediately march with the army. Pretty soon before the rebel's reach KL Tywin and the Lannister army arrives claiming to be there to reinforce KL. Jaime warns mad king not to let them in, Mad King orders them in and then the Lannister's start to sack KL. Ned walks into the Throne room immediately after Jaime kills MK and his pyromancer to find Jaime on the throne. Robert arrives and then Ned heads to the Tower of Joy
Something that I don't think anyone can debate: The actors are still killing it. Every interaction was heartbreaking, even though at this point the script is leaving me saying WTF more times than not.
Lena Headey is a fantastic actress, and I think she was great this season, even though she got next to no screentime.
Lena Headey is a fantastic actress, and I think she was great this season, even though she got next to no screentime.
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
I keep seeing that Dany just decided go scorched earth at that last second but when Grey Worm speared the soldier who had laid down his sword I figured she probably told him she was going to do it and to go ahead and wreck shop no matter what.
bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making. These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
That's not at all what happened.
Once Grey Worm saw that she was attacking the people, he knew there wasn't going to be a peace, and so he threw the spear. He also seemed disappointed in what happened.
Plus I think the writers said in the after episode that she decided to do it right then.
Once Grey Worm saw that she was attacking the people, he knew there wasn't going to be a peace, and so he threw the spear. He also seemed disappointed in what happened.
Plus I think the writers said in the after episode that she decided to do it right then.
I slept on it to see what my opinion would be after most of the sheen had been wiped away. My initial reaction to this episode was that it was an excellent episode and it felt like it was true to GRRM's vision, outside of Jaime and Cersei's ending, which I believe will end with Jaime killing Cersei as otherwise his character arc makes little sense if he ends up back in her arms again. This morning, I think I still enjoyed the episode and believe it was the type of ending GRRM would've ultimately given us, but I do have issues with it.
As for Dany turning, I enjoyed the heck out of it, however, after sleeping on it, I have to agree that while the writers laid the groundwork for this to occur, they could have given her better reasoning for burning them all. Maybe like conquering KL and then having the people of KL being openly hostile towards her which then causes her to snap, or hiding the majority of the people of KL in and around the Red Keep and following the surrender, she still decides to burn the red keep down just to get to Cersei.
As for Dany turning, I enjoyed the heck out of it, however, after sleeping on it, I have to agree that while the writers laid the groundwork for this to occur, they could have given her better reasoning for burning them all. Maybe like conquering KL and then having the people of KL being openly hostile towards her which then causes her to snap, or hiding the majority of the people of KL in and around the Red Keep and following the surrender, she still decides to burn the red keep down just to get to Cersei.
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No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
FIDO95 said:
Shocked to see so many complaints about Dany going mad queen. If you thought it was going to end well, you haven't been paying attention.
This quote actually shows how out of the blue and unlike the character the show built. She said this to the masters, not the slaves.
I have no problem with her ultimately going mad. But it would have been as a result of sitting on the throne or a ratcheting of actions during the battle.
This would have been a perfect episode for an IASIP opening and title screen. Dany says I will spare the city of the bells ring, then title screen "Dany sets Kong's Landing on Fire"
I actually understand why Dany did what she did especially after the D&D commentary. All of her closest companions/advisors are dead, and she is in the place full of the people that killed her family and drove her and her brother to exile. She sees the red keep and sees a hostile country that is the root cause of her miserable upbringing. From that distorted logic it definitely makes sense.
bobinator said:Quote:
Crazy or not she was hell bent on one thing and never letting anything stand in her way.
That's my whole issue though. The one thing she's hell bent on is now hers, and nobody is in her way, and she turns away from it just to kill everyone.
It's not really that killing those people was unnecessary, it's that it delayed her getting the thing she wants.
They built those whole thing up with subtle steps. That's why it was inevitable. An eight-year slow turn to this. And then, in that moment... that's it?
It just felt lazy by the writers.
It was still different. VERY different than Meereen. they loved her there when she came and turned on the masters, etc. Her experiences prior to Westeros were teaching her things - we thought - but in the end Westeros was nothing like any of that.
She expected that here where she was born and (outside of Jon) was the rightful heir. And after she saved them ALL in the north against the undead - without her there is no Arya moment they don't stand a chance without her armies and dragons.
I also don't get how you think it delayed her getting what she wanted - it happened still, and it happened that same day. You mean a few hours delay? Maybe. But in the context of her entire life it wasn't a delay. She won it that day.
And I repeat - Who's to say that if she just takes out Cersei that they all bow to her now based on what she has seen - instead lay waste to the place and they will bow out of fear which is what she said she was going to do based on everything that happened leading up to that point.
But she also told Barristan Selmy she's not her father after he came clean about how much of a POS he was.
Yes, no particular reason. Again, the people aren't between her and the thing she's obsessed with.
This whole 'she's going crazy' thing is built around that she's going crazy because of her singular focus on the iron throne. Every thing she's done that's even kind of 'crazy,' she did to get the throne.
And instead of taking the iron throne, she just starts burning down the city.
This is why it's so frustrating, there are ALL KIND OF WAYS they could have made that make more sense.
This whole 'she's going crazy' thing is built around that she's going crazy because of her singular focus on the iron throne. Every thing she's done that's even kind of 'crazy,' she did to get the throne.
And instead of taking the iron throne, she just starts burning down the city.
This is why it's so frustrating, there are ALL KIND OF WAYS they could have made that make more sense.
BTW what happened to winter? When Jaime left KL last season it was starting to snow.
I'm I the only one that had a problem that Cersi had no plan, no double or triple cross? That she meekly gave in? That's not the Cersi we know?
I am a staunch supporter of where this thing just went, but I will toss aTmAg one bread crumb if he will promise to sign my NDA after my concession.
I will grant you being upset that Dany snapped instead of turned. I still think that anyone who has been married can attest that it is more of a snap versus a decent into insanity; however, I will accept your argument. One defining moment in Episode 5 to cause her to snap would enhance the story, and several good options to create the snap have already been suggested. However, women do snap at some weird things from the male point of view, and a bell tolling is not so far fetched if 37 bad things have happened to one woman in the prior week. Now my wife has yet to murder innocents, but our house motto is "wine and sex", not "blood and fire" (3 days out of the month it is blood and fire, but I digress).
Now I know it is only Monday, but we should be getting very good with the stages of grief after 4 previous episodes of season 8, any chance we can skip a couple of stages of grief and start talking about Wednesday type stuff (the go to items seem to be Bran's erections or Grey Worms non erections with these pervs).
I will grant you being upset that Dany snapped instead of turned. I still think that anyone who has been married can attest that it is more of a snap versus a decent into insanity; however, I will accept your argument. One defining moment in Episode 5 to cause her to snap would enhance the story, and several good options to create the snap have already been suggested. However, women do snap at some weird things from the male point of view, and a bell tolling is not so far fetched if 37 bad things have happened to one woman in the prior week. Now my wife has yet to murder innocents, but our house motto is "wine and sex", not "blood and fire" (3 days out of the month it is blood and fire, but I digress).
Now I know it is only Monday, but we should be getting very good with the stages of grief after 4 previous episodes of season 8, any chance we can skip a couple of stages of grief and start talking about Wednesday type stuff (the go to items seem to be Bran's erections or Grey Worms non erections with these pervs).
In absentia lucis, Tenebrae vin****.
aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
swc93 said:
BTW what happened to winter? When Jaime left KL last season it was starting to snow.
Not only did winter end with the NK death but apparently it turned KL into a desert, killed all the trees and destroyed the mountains.
It's like D&D never watched any of the previous episodes. And ultimately that's what all the complaints are about.
But that's her singular obsession. She wants to attack as soon as possible, she didn't want to wait to regroup the army in the north, she wants it, NOW.Zombie Jon Snow said:
I also don't get how you think it delayed her getting what she wanted - it happened still, and it happened that same day. You mean a few hours delay? Maybe. But in the context of her entire life it wasn't a delay. She won it that day.
Again, even that small change would have made it make sense to me.
If she'd have heard the bells, and then flown to the red keep and taken the throne, but then maybe she looks out at the city and sees the lannister banners everywhere. She thinks that she'll never be able to rule these people, and then she goes and kills everyone.
That would have also made more sense.
But get the throne first. It's like, her whole thing.
I thought Grey Worm was more disappointed in Jon for not immediately following his Queen's lead; not disappointed that peace wasn't happening. He looked to be out for revenge for his lady's death.bobinator said:
That's not at all what happened.
Once Grey Worm saw that she was attacking the people, he knew there wasn't going to be a peace, and so he threw the spear. He also seemed disappointed in what happened.
Plus I think the writers said in the after episode that she decided to do it right then.
This part was okay to me. Dany out-Cersei'd Cersei.Agnzona said:
I'm I the only one that had a problem that Cersi had no plan, no double or triple cross? That she meekly gave in? That's not the Cersi we know?
There's no way to have someone betray her, because she doesn't trust anyone anymore.
I actually thought that arc was fine.
And she's not, she took it upon herself to burn the city vs a pyromancer and some wildfire.JABQ04 said:
But she also told Barristan Selmy she's not her father after he came clean about how much of a POS he was.
Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
It has to be rotated and aimed fast enough to lead a dragon flying fast and randomly. Even Cersei said they just needed one "lucky shot". Rhaegal was flying slow and straight. Much easier shot than trying to hit Drogon in full attack mode.Quinn said:The episode showed guys on Euron's boat easily pushing the weapon to face a different direction.Zombie Jon Snow said:aTmAg said:I'll give her the first dive. It's the 20 after that which are a problem, IMO.G Martin 87 said:She dove in from a high angle with the sun at her back. Turns out that Euron wasn't seeing hundreds of baby Drogons (like the more ridiculous theorists suggested from last week's preview), but squinting into the sun unable to be sure what he was seeing.aTmAg said:
Another thing I forgot to mention:
The fact that Dany wiped out the fleet and scorpions so easily was idiotic. Last week Euron's fleet first 3 shots went 3 for 3 from a mile away. They yesterday they looked like storm troopers. I thought they were going to do something smart to win that battle. Like maybe sneak up in the middle of the night and burn the scorpions on one side of the city, and then have Dany approach from that direction or something. But no. This time, she was just really good at flying a dragon and everybody else had really bad aim.
They don't rotate easily at all or adjust angle - they are big lumbering weapons. They had limited tactical ability really. After the first dive once she was swooping and diving through them it was from 20 different angles they could not adjust to on the fly.
aTmAg said:Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
She talks about it at Winterfell when she sees Jon getting all the love for riding her dragons. She feels ostracized and separated from the people, even though they would have all died without her. And they don't giver her any credit for it.
She's a foreigner to the very land her ancestors created. She is burning it all down and starting from scratch.
Kaiser Soze comes to mind, "You just need the will to do what the other guy wouldn't."bobinator said:This part was okay to me. Dany out-Cersei'd Cersei.Agnzona said:
I'm I the only one that had a problem that Cersi had no plan, no double or triple cross? That she meekly gave in? That's not the Cersi we know?
There's no way to have someone betray her, because she doesn't trust anyone anymore.
I actually thought that arc was fine.
And so she kills a million civilians, that had nothing to do with any of that, after the battle is won?Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
She talks about it at Winterfell when she sees Jon getting all the love for riding her dragons. She feels ostracized and separated from the people, even though they would have all died without her. And they don't giver her any credit for it.
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