Star this post if you knew Sansa wasn't going to keep that sworn secret longer than a fart lasts blowin' in the wind.

Interesting to see the degree of defending the obvious lazy, declining writing of the show. It's like a mom arguing her problematic 7 year old son is a good kid and people don't know what they're talking about.

complainers after episode 5:

'omg i cant believe that they did not show them telling Cersei who Jon really is before they killed her...not showing her reaction is unforgivable'

redline248 said:

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Sums it up

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Not really. Last week the Night King missed Drogon at like point blank range with his ice Spear. And about 50 scorpion spears missed last night too.

Dumb tweet trying too hard.

"WHO DOESN'T THINK THAT EPISODE WAS AWESOME!?"

chase128 said:

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The know you are, just pointing out that you were discussing with someone how y'all thought a scene should play out and that someone is always going to be upset the show didn't go like they wanted it (not saying that's you here)

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Maybe that is a reason I do not get pissed as many as others. I do not care much how it ends. I'm just watching to see how it ends. It seems that others have put down money on it or something.

I'm calling it. Ep. 5 will begin on at least page 340. Possibly 350.

I really hope that you are your own boss. Because otherwise your time sink on a Monday during the work day is pretty awe-inspiring.

Yeah, I'm enjoying the ride personally. Can't wait to see how Jamie deals with Cersei. Is the witch's prophecy going to come true? Is Arya going to kill Cersei? Does Arya survive?

I really hope we see some badass dragon roasting next week, it's overdue. Dany and her dragons have taken a lot on the chin and I'd like to see them get some shots in on Cersei.

Did anyone notice Euron looked scared in the preview for next week?!

DannyDuberstein said:

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Right. If Euron was in the open sea, then I totally buy it as bad writing. But they wrote it in a manner to provide his ships cover until the moment to fire. Sure, there would have been a moment for Dany to see them, but they were also black ships coming out amidst black rocks. Not that crazy to buy that they could have gone unnoticed just long enough to launch.

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It actually makes no sense at all to use an ambush in that situation at all from Euron's perspective. He should have attacked in the open sea for a decisive battle.

#1 Euron must have amazing scouts and spies. He knows in advance exactly when they'll be sailing back to Dragonstone, either that or he sat in that cove for like weeks just waiting for someone to appear in front of him. (Meanwhile the other side, the one with dragons, actually apparently does no scouting at all)

Then, that was his whole plan right, that they would eventually just sail in front of him? There are just so many ways it could go wrong. Its a dumb plan. If you were tasked with fighting that battle, there is no way someone involved in planning wouldnt be like, "Wait we are gonna do what? What if this happens, or this? How do you know this will be sucessful?" to which I guess Euron would reply "Dont worry, I read the script"

He has forward facing guns only, and he has their fleet totally outmatched. He should not be going for surprise AT ALL. By attacking on the open sea where he would still have superior firepower to blow all their ships away (and probably scatter them further away from a castle) he would ensure that all of his enemies start the battle and stay directly in front of him and in his scorpion sights the whole time and his fleet could maneuver to keep both dragons in front of them as would be absolutely necessary. By hiding in a cove he actually risked being seen from a bad angle (or directly overhead) before the fighting started. He got lucky that the dragons flew into his line of site before anything else happened. If he has missed and not killed the one dragon they were dead meat and would have been attacked from multiple directions while surrounded by cliffs on both sides. The only way he could possibly win that battle startingwith an ambush is by the dumb luck of at least one dragon flying into his sights before anybody else saw him.

chase128 said:

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Yeah, I'm enjoying the ride personally. Can't wait to see how Jamie deals with Cersei. Is the witch's prophecy going to come true? Is Arya going to kill Cersei? Does Arya survive?

I really hope we see some badass dragon roasting next week, it's overdue. Dany and her dragons have taken a lot on the chin and I'd like to see them get some shots in on Cersei.

Did anyone notice Euron looked scared in the preview for next week?!

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Yeah. He seemed to have a "WTF is that" look on his face.

Yeah they are overly empowering Euron and his fleet. He has been a badass/unstoppable.

To me, the bottom line is this.

The books completely stalled out in book 4 and book 5. Not only was there very little progression but GRRM just blew the story out with additional characters, arcs, and sub-plots, many of which were ultimately scrapped by HBO. It was a beautiful, glorious, hot mess.

After S5, HBO had to reel it all in and was for the most part "off the books" at that point. I have to give them credit for doing the best I think anyone could have at this point. GRRM's literary GOT is incredibly complex and nuanced. And they were given three seasons to do it and yes, a limited budget.

Truthfully, they needed either a 10 episode season or two more "short" seasons to finish this. Five episodes (or one short season) for NK/Great War. Five episodes (or one short season) for the GOT/KL.

For the NK/Great War - more time for Sam to research. More time for Bran tp provide backstory through his bran-vision. More time to prepare for the battle and talk strategy. Such a huge event would warrant this and attention to detail.

For GOT/KL, basically the same.

But it is what it is. We didn't get that. We didn't get a blank check or another year for whatever reason. Emelia needs to move on, maybe Nicolas, or just HBO execs decided this is the end. So could it be better with more time and prep? Sure. Is it still pretty darn good/entertaining, while imperfect? For me, absolutely.

Can we have a break-off thread called Game of Thrones Discussion for Military / Combat Geniuses?

Could really cut down on page count for the main discussion board

Quote:

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The closest thing that I can compare the experience of watching last night's episode to is:

Watching Aggie football

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So basically D&D are trying to blow a massive 4th quarter lead with whatever terrible ending they choose, thus ruining what has been an awesome show for most people.

wangus12 said:

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Quote:

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The closest thing that I can compare the experience of watching last night's episode to is:

Watching Aggie football

---

So basically D&D are trying to blow a massive 4th quarter lead with whatever terrible ending they choose, thus ruining what has been an awesome show for most people.

---

We beat LSU in 7OT. I'll take that in GoT all day.

And then Moment A, and then Moment B, and then Moment C*TLDR Warning*

Most storytelling tells a narrative with events that answer 'but for' or 'as a result of' establishing at a minimum a cause-effect relationship...unfortunately this show is now about the 'and then.' Jamie & Brienne hook up AND THEN Bronn shows up AND THEN Jamie rides away AND THEN Rhaegal dies AND THEN Missandei gets captured AND THEN Missandei dies...it's an endless stream of moments that feel weightless because they aren't buoyed by any basic cause-effect. Things are just happening. Euron's fleet just appeared outfitted with dozens of giant cross bows and took out 1 of 2 magical creatures left in the show. Missandei just appeared in the custody of Cersei and was summarily executed.

I have long questioned D&D's ability to write without GRRMs books and that doesn't need to be re-hashed. It's quite evident the quality of dialogue and character moments is less than it was between S1-S4. But it's also abundantly clear that they are suffering from this self-imposed time limit. Characters are shooting around the world haphazardly and big moments are being micro-waved into a flavorless goop.

Due to many factors this was one of the worst episodes of the series imo. But lets start with what was good:

• Jon's funeral speech was quite moving and I fully appreciated the 'they were the shields that guarded the realms of men' line. Definitely tear jerking.
• The one thing that D&D has shown to be proficient at is writing Frat Bro Tormund. He was funny as always and again delivered some of the better lines of dialogue (even if they were basically fart jokes and 'jon is so short gaiz' jokes)
• Most of the comraderie/post celebration scenes were nice. Pod was hilarious.

The Bad:

• Brienne and Jamie: WHY did this happen? Why was it necessary? Their bond was deeper than sex. I always thought that Brienne and Cersei were opposites (in nature as well as to Jamie). Brienne was what a sister should be to Jamie. The cap stone of their relationship was seeing Jamie acknowledge her knightly qualities and make her what she always was; a true knight/hero. The fact that they took precious screentime away from the show to be like, 'oh you're a virgin? You are incomplete, let me fix you.' <-that was disappointing.
• Ghost: The show has essentially turned Ghost into a 4-legged middle finger to fans. Ghost was supposed to be a symbol of Jon Snow and quite literally saved his life, Sam's life, and many others. I've had more emotional good byes with a t-shirt than Jon did with Ghost. I don't understand why he's still in the show. Thankfully Ned only had to die but once. Ghost is dying over and over again.
• Geographical continuity: King's Landing is apparently now a flat, arid, desert. Kewl. (and this isn't a new complaint, it's just another notch in the belt)
• Bronn's Seinfeld-esque cameo: Just an absurd sequence of events with even more absurd dialogue.
• Euron: Aka - Evil McBadguy. He's just a cartoon. He might as well have tied Missandei to a train track with TNT strapped to her chest whilst twilring his mustache.
• Cersei just inexplicably using Missandei as a means of inciting a reaction from Dany but deciding NOT to kill Tyrion too?
• Gendry RIVERS?! Just try a LITTLE harder. It's such a small, easy thing to get right.
• Bran/3ER: He continues to just be ignored. What was he doing the whole time during the battle? Just flying around as crows? Ok, cool. What is Bran's role in the Great War? Studying antique wheel chair design? Awesome.
• Casualties: 50% of Dothraki are lost? LOL what? No way.
• Battle of Winterfell just seems so inconsequential. We literally saw Jon make the decision to LET SAME DIE in order to save Bran and not only was there no tangible consequence to that decision, but Sam or Jon or anyone didn't even talk about it. In fact, we got hardly ANY reflection of what just occurred outside of a 'hey we beat the dead, you should drink.' Tired or not, it's also completely unnatural for any surviving soldier to be willing to fight another war. They just beat DEATH. Why in the world would they go for another round against actual humans?! They saw friends and family DIE to protect humanity. Why would anyone be willing to forget that just so Dany can sit on a chair?
• Crypt Scene: What was the point of it? It served now purpose and had no consequence. I thought surely D&D wrote that scene as to expedite a reveal of some sort. Or maybe kill a character? Or maybe shock the audience with a zombie Lyanna? Nope? Oh ok.
• Where's Meera, Daario? Did we REALLY just say goodbye to Sam/Tormund/Ghost?!

The Worst:

• Jon's Parentage: Again, the biggest political/emotional revelation in the entire show is given less time than Tyrion got to describe Cousin Orson and his love of beetle smashing. What are you doing D&D? Sansa and Arya just learned that Ned sullied his honor to keep Jon safe because he is the TRUE HEIR and we get a cut away? It's so blatantly obvious these screenwriters have no confidence in themselves. They feel completely at home writing dick jokes and Tormund party scenes but when presented with a moment that would require a nuanced emotional tension, they shy away like Sam to a dying Edd. Inexcusable. And the fact that Sansa took all of a commercial break to forgo her promise UNDER THE GODSWOOD tree that she wouldn't tell anyone, and instead decide that tell Tyrion is just a 'are you kidding me?' moment as I can recall. What are you doing D&D?
• Arya: Arya's entire journey to become a faceless man was predicated on her bringing justice to those who wronged her, her family, and her friends. The reason she abandoned that quest was because she was unable and unwilling to shed her identity as Arya Stark. "A girl is Arya Stark of Winterfell. And I'm going home." She's done truly horrendous things to get home and even lectures Jon about family duty. Now she decides to leave FOR GOOD?! That is some schizophrenic character arc.
• Arya 2.0: The most rational solution to killing Cersei is to simply send Arya (and yes, it would suck). But that's the consequences for making Arya into a shape-shifting T-1000. She absorbed all of the abilities of a faceless man without having to adhere to any of their rules. With the NK dead, Arya is quite literally the most dangerous person in the show. She can assume anyone's identity, sneak around the enemy undetected, and all of that is in conjunction with her prodigy level ninja skills. I posted this last week: "This is now a problem for the show. They will have to make some "reason" as to why Arya can't simply infiltrate her way into Cersei's bedchamber, kill her, and assume her identity to whatever cause she wants." With Cersei opening the doors to the red keep and allowing in thousands of peasants, that only makes Arya's job easier. But instead of even attempting to explain why Arya can't/won't assassinate Cersei, we're just led to believe that the thought never crossed any of the character's minds. *sigh*
• "The Great War": Plot holes aside, the biggest theme from GRRMs books has been torn out root & stem. Alt Shift X had a great post that essentially stated that GRRM was a conscientious objector in Vietnam and known pacifist. He despises war and violence. He made these books to be a REJECTION of the sort of good vs evil battles that Tolkien used, essentially stating that there is no pure good/evil. Everybody has the capacity to be both. Take a look at Arya. In the books she's a child traumatized by seeing half her family killed and being isolated in the middle of war. She's constantly having to take on new identities to stay hidden to the point that she starts to lose herself and becoming 'no one.' She's the the ultimate example of how perpetuating the endless cycle of violence and revenge only leads to more pain and loss. In the show she becomes a badass murderer because isn't murder just so freaking cool? Audiences got to clap when she murdered the Freys. They clapped when she murdered Littlefinger. Then they clapped when she murdered the Night King. They clapped and clapped as Arya's character developed into a strong powerful female role model who learned that murdering all her problems away is the best solution. Now Cersei f'n Lannister is the final boss of the show after blatantly treating the WWs as a joke and then using them to further her own schemes. The NK was just a pawn in the machinations of the snarky drunk queen. And she hasn't been punished for it. If anything, her plan worked to perfection and the North has been crippled. Everyone who ignored the walker threat in favor of furthering their own agenda has been proven right. Now everybody can go right back to playing the Game of Thrones as though nothing ever happened. Because what REALLY matters is who sits on the throne. Just as George intended.

What started out as a condemnation of war, short sightedness and greed has turned into a celebration of all the worst parts of human nature.

wangus12 said:

---

Quote:

---

The closest thing that I can compare the experience of watching last night's episode to is:

Watching Aggie football

---

So basically D&D are trying to blow a massive 4th quarter lead with whatever terrible ending they choose, thus ruining what has been an awesome show for most people.

---

Johnny Snowball is gonna make it back to the Knight's Watch just wait. It wasn't his fault he had a Master-At-Arms who never wanted him and didn't utilize him properly. And yeah he made some dumb decisions but he was just a kid. #CastleBlackSzn

M.C. Swag said:

---

And then Moment A, and then Moment B, and then Moment C*TLDR Warning*

Most storytelling tells a narrative with events that answer 'but for' or 'as a result of' establishing at a minimum a cause-effect relationshipunfortunately this show is now about the 'and then.' Jamie & Brienne hook up AND THEN Bronn shows up AND THEN Jamie rides away AND THEN Rhaegal dies AND THEN Missandei gets captured AND THEN Missandei diesit's an endless stream of moments that feel weightless because they aren't buoyed by any basic cause-effect. Things are just happening. Euron's fleet just appeared outfitted with dozens of giant cross bows and took out 1 of 2 magical creatures left in the show. Missandei just appeared in the custody of Cersei and was summarily executed.

I have long questioned D&D's ability to write without GRRMs books and that doesn't need to be re-hashed. It's quite evident the quality of dialogue and character moments is less than it was between S1-S4. But it's also abundantly clear that they are suffering from this self-imposed time limit. Characters are shooting around the world haphazardly and big moments are being micro-waved into a flavorless goop.

Due to many factors this was one of the worst episodes of the series imo. But lets start with what was good:

• Jon's funeral speech was quite moving and I fully appreciated the 'they were the shields that guarded the realms of men' line. Definitely tear jerking.
• The one thing that D&D has shown to be proficient at is writing Frat Bro Tormund. He was funny as always and again delivered some of the better lines of dialogue (even if they were basically fart jokes and 'jon is so short gaiz' jokes)
• Most of the comraderie/post celebration scenes were nice. Pod was hilarious.

The Bad:

• Brienne and Jamie: WHY did this happen? Why was it necessary? Their bond was deeper than sex. I always thought that Brienne and Cersei were opposites (in nature as well as to Jamie). Brienne was what a sister should be to Jamie. The cap stone of their relationship was seeing Jamie acknowledge her knightly qualities and make her what she always was; a true knight/hero. The fact that they took precious screentime away from the show to be like, 'oh you're a virgin? You are incomplete, let me fix you.' <-that was disappointing.
• Ghost: The show has essentially turned Ghost into a 4-legged middle finger to fans. Ghost was supposed to be a symbol of Jon Snow and quite literally saved his life, Sam's life, and many others. I've had more emotional good byes with a t-shirt than Jon did with Ghost. I don't understand why he's still in the show. Thankfully Ned only had to die but once. Ghost is dying over and over again.
• Geographical continuity: King's Landing is apparently now a flat, arid, desert. Kewl. (and this isn't a new complaint, it's just another notch in the belt)
• Bronn's Seinfeld-esque cameo: Just an absurd sequence of events with even more absurd dialogue.
• Euron is just a cartoon. He might as well have tied Missandei to a train track with TNT strapped to her chest whilst twilring his mustache.
• Cersei just inexplicably using Missandei as a means of inciting a reaction from Dany but deciding NOT to kill Tyrion too?
• Gendry RIVERS?! Just try a LITTLE harder. It's such a small, easy thing to get right.
• Bran/3ER: He jcontinues to just be ignored. What was he doing the whole time during the battle? Just flying around as crows? Ok, cool. What is Bran's role in the Great War? Studying antique wheel chair design? Awesome.
• Casualties: 50% of Dothraki are lost? LOL what? No way.

• Battle of Winterfell just seems so inconsequential. We literally saw Jon make the decision to LET SAME DIE in order to save Bran and not only was there no tangible consequence to that decision, but Sam or Jon or anyone didn't even talk about it. In fact, we got hardly ANY reflection of what just occurred outside of a 'hey we beat the dead, you should drink.' Tired or not, it's also completely unnatural for any surviving soldier to be willing to fight another war. They just beat DEATH. Why in the world would they go for another round against actual humans?! They saw friends and family DIE to protect humanity. Why would anyone be willing to forget that just so Dany can sit on a chair?
• Crypt Scene: What was the point of it? It served now purpose and had no consequence. I thought surely D&D wrote that scene as to expedite a reveal of some sort. Or maybe kill a character? Or maybe shock the audience with a zombie Lyanna? Nope? Oh ok.
• Where's Meera, Daario? Did we REALLY just say goodbye to Sam/Tormund/Ghost?!

The Worst:

• Jon's Parentage: Again, the biggest political/emotional revelation in the entire show is given less time than Tyrion got to describe Cousin Orson and his love of beetle smashing. What are you doing D&D? Sansa and Arya just learned that Ned sullied his honor to keep Jon safe because he is the TRUE HEIR and we get a cut away? It's so blatantly obvious these screenwriters have no confidence in themselves. They feel completely at home writing dick jokes and Tormund party scenes but when presented with a moment that would require a nuanced emotional tension, they shy away like Sam to a dying Edd. Inexcusable. And the fact that Sansa took all of a commercial break to forgo her promise UNDER THE GODSWOOD tree that she wouldn't tell anyone, and instead decide that tell Tyrion is just a 'are you kidding me?' moment as I can recall. What are you doing D&D?
• Arya: Arya's entire journey to become a faceless man was predicated on her bringing justice to those who wronged her, her family, and her friends. The reason she abandoned that quest was because she was unable and unwilling to shed her identity as Arya Stark. "A girl is Arya Stark of Winterfell. And I'm going home." She's done truly horrendous things to get home and even lectures Jon about family duty. Now she decides to leave FOR GOOD?! That is some schizophrenic character arc.
• Arya 2.0: The most rational solution to killing Cersei is to simply send Arya (and yes, it would suck). But that's the consequences for making Arya into a shape-shifting T-1000. She absorbed all of the abilities of a faceless man without having to adhere to any of their rules. With the NK dead, Arya is quite literally the most dangerous person in the show. She can assume anyone's identity, sneak around the enemy undetected, and all of that is in conjunction with her prodigy level ninja skills. I posted this last week: "This is now a problem for the show. They will have to make some "reason" as to why Arya can't simply infiltrate her way into Cersei's bedchamber, kill her, and assume her identity to whatever cause she wants." With Cersei opening the doors to the red keep and allowing in thousands of peasants, that only makes Arya's job easier. But instead of even attempting to explain why Arya can't/won't assassinate Cersei, we're just led to believe that the thought never crossed any of the character's minds. *sigh*
• "The Great War": Plot holes aside, the biggest theme from GRRMs books has been torn out root & stem. Alt Shift X had a great post that essentially stated that GRRM was a conscientious objector in Vietnam and known pacifist. He despises war and violence. He made these books to be a REJECTION of the sort of good vs evil battles that Tolkien used, essentially stating that there is no pure good/evil. Everybody has the capacity to be both. Take a look at Arya. In the books she's a child traumatized by seeing half her family killed and being isolated in the middle of war. She's constantly having to take on new identities to stay hidden to the point that she starts to lose herself and becoming 'no one.' She's the the ultimate example of how perpetuating the endless cycle of violence and revenge only leads to more pain and loss. In the show she becomes a badass murderer because isn't murder just so freaking cool? Audiences got to clap when she murdered the Freys. They clapped when she murdered Littlefinger. Then they clapped when she murdered the Night King. They clapped and clapped as Arya's character developed into a strong powerful female role model who learned that murdering all her problems away is the best solution. Now Cersei f'n Lannister is the final boss of the show after blatantly treating the WWs as a joke and then using them to further her own schemes. The NK was just a pawn in the machinations of the snarky drunk queen. And she hasn't been punished for it. If anything, her plan worked to perfection and the North has been crippled. Everyone who ignored the walker threat in favor of furthering their own agenda has been proven right. Now everybody can go right back to playing the Game of Thrones as though nothing ever happened. Because what REALLY matters is who sits on the throne. Just a George intended.

What started out as a condemnation of war, short sightedness and greed has turned into a celebration of all the worst parts of human nature.

---

so basically

Congrats in advance on the avalanche of 'likes' your single gif post will receive in response to my thought out explanation of why it was disappointing to me.

buddy im messing with you. take yourself a little less seriously. i appreciate your insights.

M.C. Swag said:

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Congrats in advance on the avalanche of 'likes' your single gif post will receive in response to my thought out explanation of why it was disappointing to me.

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I added a star to his post because of your post.