****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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bangobango
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In reply to redline248 • 11:30p, 4/30/19
AG
redline248 said:
bangobango said:
redline248 said:
bangobango said:
redline248 said:
As far as the show is concerned, I agree that the prophesies have been cast aside.


But they didn't, and that's what makes it so damn annoying. Melisandre's entire stoey arch was finding the PWIP. And the way they have Melisandre act in that episode is what drives me absolutely bat **** crazy about it all because it is completely inconsistent with her previous actions and dialogue..
My point was that despite things being mentioned by certain characters for the first few seasons, the prophesies were eventually cast aside. Most likely when the ran out of Martin's source material they said "f-ck it," and decided to focus on the bigger plots.


First episode of season seven (after they "knew" it was going to be Arya):



Jump to 6:30 mark for Melisandre's quote about Prince who was promised.
Ok, let's imagine when they wrote that scene, they were still considering having the prince factor into the final confrontation. Was the scene written/filmed within the 3 year window? Or did just air in that window?

Aside from that, why wouldn't they have Mel say something to call back to that scene? Or Bran, who knows almost everything? My opinion is that they deliberately left it out b/c they don't intend to bring it up again.

Could I be wrong? Of course, but I will be surprised if they make any reference to it again.

edit: One last point. Mel believes the prophesy and believes "only the prince can bring the dawn." Well, that doesn't mean it's actually true.


I'm not trying to argue that they're going to do it, more saying I hope they do something more with it because it's messed up how they've left it

And I agree that Mel could've been wrong, but that isn't what they showed in the episode. I gave a perfect example of how they could've conveyed that, by having her directing Jon or Dany and then show her surprise when Arya made the kill.

This is the woman who burned Shireen alive. It's not like she deserved a happy ending. Her dying realizing she was wrong the whole time would've been a fitting end to her story. Instead we get retcon crap trying to make it look like she knew it was Arya all along.
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bangobango
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In reply to Eso si, Que es • 11:35p, 4/30/19
AG
Eso si, Que es said:
bangobango said:
aTmAg said:
Zombie Jon Snow said:

Yes no doubt it added to the emotion... and for budget reasons made it easier.

But purely from a watcher point of view more light would have been better in several places. The Dothraki attack for one thing... they got off cheap there really and kill 100K without showing anything. then they roll in the clouds and obscured everything.

I get why - both cost and tension. Just saying it sucked that way for some of it.
I think the clouds and storm was a great tactical move by the NK (he seemed smarter than the good guys). And he had done it in the past, so it was consistent. I would have expected him to do that even if it was during the day. Especially when you are going against dragons. Before that storm, Jon and Dany were doing pretty damned good against the zombies. It probably would have been a close fight if it wasn't for that storm taking the dragons out of the mix.


You are insufferable on this thread with all the goal tending. You don't have to respond to every single criticism.
Just wanted to point out that while he has 56 posts since the episode aired, you are right behind him at 43 posts.

Most hockey games have 2 goal tenders

Just sayin....


Just want to point out it is ridiculous you counted that.
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redline248
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In reply to bangobango • 11:38p, 4/30/19
AG
I still don't think the show intended us to think Mel died believing Arya was the prince that was promised, but I guess it's open to interpretation until if/when the show settles it. I do understand your reasoning, though.
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Urban Ag
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In reply to redline248 • 11:43p, 4/30/19
AG
redline248 said:
I still don't think the show intended us to think Mel died believing Arya was the prince that was promised, but I guess it's open to interpretation until if/when the show settles it. I do understand your reasoning, though.
I think Mel went off on another assumption but this time got it right. Is that not her character?

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Dad
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In reply to My Dad Earl • 11:50p, 4/30/19
AG
My Dad Earl said:
claym711 said:
Champ Bailey said:
claym711 said:
So half the entire show was built up around winter is coming and NK's army, and they're wiped out in an episode that is a combo of LOTR, Top Gun, and Jurassic Park - even down to the kitchen scene.

Bran literally does nothing. Takes a nap or something.

Every important character except Jorah is saved at the last possible second throughout the episode.

Nothing original or surprising.

This show has just become big budget pop culture. It's still entertaining, but neither the plot, writing, or acting are special.


This was posted yesterday, but if you didn't see it:



Was wondering how she ran past a few thousand zombies and all of NK's buddies undetected.
I know they tried to foreshadow it in the first episode of this season when Jon asked "How'd you sneak up on me?" But after watching again last night and seeing that there was a full circle of wights around the tree with no pathway in sight, I just don't see how it's believable. Maybe it will be explained in this next episode.

The show left Arya long before the NK got to Bran. Maybe she was there first and hiding waiting for her moment.
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bangobango
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In reply to Urban Ag • 11:55p, 4/30/19
AG
Urban Ag said:
bangobango said:
redline248 said:
As far as the show is concerned, I agree that the prophesies have been cast aside.


But they didn't, and that's what makes it so damn annoying. Melisandre's entire stoey arch was finding the PWIP. And the way they have Melisandre act in that episode is what drives me absolutely bat **** crazy about it all because it is completely inconsistent with her previous actions and dialogue..
Mel f'd up almost all of her predictions. It's part of why she is an amazing character in the books and series. She is not evil. She truly believes in what her purpose was even if the blood of the innocent is spilled for the realm of men. She is a true, but flawed, believer.

I was mocked endlessly for predicting Mel would return to Winterfell and die at Winterfell and that no one at Winterfell would raise a sword against her despite her past crimes. Mel showed up and gave it all up to do whatever she could against the night.

Being wrong and making bad decisions is literally a bedrock premise in both the books and the series.

As is redemption. It's a story about very flawed people. Some choose to die trying to right their wrongs. Some don't.
I completely agree with your characterization of Melisandre, she made bad decisions and was flawed.

And I agree it's about redemption. Jaime and Theon, like Melsidandre, both murdered or seriously maimed innocent children because they thought the ends justified the means. I will not get into how both Jaime and Theon were seriously maimed during their journey to redemption, and how that maiming changed their perspective and helped them see the error of their ways.

I'll just point out that each of them had a moment in this season where they apologized and acknowledged that they were wrong.

We don't get that Melisandre. Instead, we get her acting like she knew it was Arya all the way back when she met her and took Gendry (to benefit Stannis) back in Season 3.

It's like Jaime walking up to Bran and saying, "I pushed you out of that window because I would do anything for love... of humanity."
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Liquid Wrench
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In reply to Urban Ag • 11:56p, 4/30/19
Urban Ag said:
redline248 said:
I still don't think the show intended us to think Mel died believing Arya was the prince that was promised, but I guess it's open to interpretation until if/when the show settles it. I do understand your reasoning, though.
I think Mel went off on another assumption but this time got it right. Is that not her character?

If we're so stuck on The Prophecy, why isn't anyone talking about the red priestesses in Essos believing that Dany was the one who was promised? And over there, they talked about her freeing slaves and remaking the world.

Food for thought.
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FIDO95
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12:00a, 5/1/19
AG
For all those still complaining about prophecies that didn't pan out and story lines never developed, just remember this: Robert's rebellion was built on a lie.

The point is that a lot of people in the world (ours the theirs) are running around with the firm belief in things that aren't true. Perhaps all the all the lord of light is all just make believe to make sense of something no one really understood. I suppose I have to throw all my Howland Reed and Dawn theories in the funeral pyre as well.

At the end of the day, this is a story about people. We witnesse as they move from good to bad, from vilified to redemption, and maybe even from bast@rd to king and/or exiled to queen.

I am in awe that this thread is over 7k. And I'm happy I get to travel this journey of discovery with all of you. Life will be a little less boring when all this conjecture is past. So enjoy it. Unless you have a crappy TV and it's too dark.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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InternetFan02
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In reply to HtownAg92 • 12:06a, 5/1/19
AG
HtownAg92 said:
Just rewatched and just as excellent. Picked up on a few things missed in the intensity of the first watch.

Someone confirm - was the wight that Jorah beheaded just in time to save Dany the Thenn leader from Hardhome that didn't want to go, but then got killed by the WW trying to get the dragonglass?

The WW slo-mo entrance reminded me of Old School and Reservoir Dogs. If they were good guys you could have cranked up "Hero" from the Foo Fighters as they turned the corner.
close

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2:35a, 5/1/19
MBAR
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2:58a, 5/1/19
AG
You know, not ever decision has to be a deep one. It WOULD have been dull.
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Eliminatus
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In reply to MBAR • 4:34a, 5/1/19
AG
MBAR said:
You know, not ever decision has to be a deep one. It WOULD have been dull.
But in a universe that is known for it's incredibly detailed background and rich in lore.....it's a total cop out. The writing this season has degraded in detail to a point that leaves a lot of us scratching our heads in disappointment.

But ya know what....I blame Martin for that. D&D are show creators. Not novelists. The novelist that gave us this world is failing us.
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In reply to MBAR • 4:42a, 5/1/19
Tony Franklins Other Shoe
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In reply to claym711 • 6:42a, 5/1/19
AG
claym711 said:
Champ Bailey said:
claym711 said:
So half the entire show was built up around winter is coming and NK's army, and they're wiped out in an episode that is a combo of LOTR, Top Gun, and Jurassic Park - even down to the kitchen scene.

Bran literally does nothing. Takes a nap or something.

Every important character except Jorah is saved at the last possible second throughout the episode.

Nothing original or surprising.

This show has just become big budget pop culture. It's still entertaining, but neither the plot, writing, or acting are special.


This was posted yesterday, but if you didn't see it:



Was wondering how she ran past a few thousand zombies and all of NK's buddies undetected.
Drawing is incomplete. It needs another raven carrying a coconut.
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Luke Smith
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6:52a, 5/1/19
Is it possible that Melisandre lit the Dothraki swords and sent them forth knowing full well they were going to die, as a large scale sacrifice to the Lord of Light?

Jorah looked upset they charged, like that wasn't the plan
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Brian Earl Spilner
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6:55a, 5/1/19
AG
Every time I think I'm making progress in this thread, there's 5 new pages.

Might as well read the damn books.
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Goose06
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6:55a, 5/1/19
AG
My main problem with you this episode was the way they showed main characters fighting on top of dead bodies and the piles so high there is just no way that ever happens. The scene where you see Browne, Jamie, gray worm, and I think Gendry all in solo combat fighting off dozens of wights each... just not believable at all. It's like every non important character died but none of the mains did. And next episode we will have thousands of non main characters still around. How?

As for Arya killing the night king, I don't really have a huge problem with it. I'd have to go back and read the axle again prophecy again, but I am not sure this even means Arya is that. It could be Jon is the prince that was promised or even Dany. They led the living to defeat the dead in the Great War / Long Night. Now the prophecy did talk about lightbringer and that didn't seem to come to fruition so maybe that whole prophecy was abandoned, but that doesn't bother me much because the show basically never made a big deal about it. If GRRM ever finishes the books, I'd expect a very different ending with how this battle went down and that's fine. A number of things have been different in the show than the books. Some good, some bad.

I'll add: the fact Arya killed the night king is very logical. They may not have done a great job setting it up (due to them trying to surprise us with who did it, most likely), but she's an expert assassin, she's an expert assassin in the dark, and she is great at sneaking around. While Arya doesn't necessarily fit the prophecy, it's very conceivable that the prophesy was false all along or that the lord of light is not real. Just like in our world you have multiple religions and they can't all be real, I think GRRM is making a point that in this world not all of these religions are 100% right, maybe they are all 100% wrong or maybe there is some truth to each one. Either way, a prophecy failing to be fulfilled is not surprising. However, in the books, I would be surprised if GRRM finished the NK in this manner...
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tk for tu juan
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In reply to Eliminatus • 7:12a, 5/1/19
Eliminatus said:
But ya know what....I blame Martin for that. D&D are show creators. Not novelists. The novelist that gave us this world is failing us.

Ding Ding Ding...if that fat **** GRRM knew how to end this series and finished the books the showrunners could be doing what they do best, converting the source material into the stunning visuals instead of trying to tie up every loose end GRRM left for them.
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BowSowy
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7:13a, 5/1/19
AG
Am I the only one that sort of wishes the NK would've actually killed Bran/3ER right before Arya killed the NK? As it stands now, there's not a lot of bitter to counteract the sweetness of the victory. Killing a Stark and apparently the world's memory would've made that battle more bittersweet which I think it needed.

Besides, wtf is 3ER's role going forward? I always thought he was sort of the yin to the NK's yang.
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MaroonStain
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7:15a, 5/1/19
AG
Again...at this point in the books, there is not a Night King.
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aTmAg
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In reply to Goose06 • 7:15a, 5/1/19
AG
Goose06 said:
I'll add: the fact Arya killed the night king is very logical. They may not have done a great job setting it up (due to them trying to surprise us with who did it, most likely), but she's an expert assassin, she's an expert assassin in the dark, and she is great at sneaking around. While Arya doesn't necessarily fit the prophecy, it's very conceivable that the prophesy was false all along or that the lord of light is not real. Just like in our world you have multiple religions and they can't all be real, I think GRRM is making a point that in this world not all of these religions are 100% right, maybe they are all 100% wrong or maybe there is some truth to each one. Either way, a prophecy failing to be fulfilled is not surprising. However, in the books, I would be surprised if GRRM finished the NK in this manner...
Somebody else posted here that the NK is not in the books at all. And the GRRM stated that there wouldn't be. So that is apparently an invention of HBO. So there couldn't have been a "Arya saves the whole world singlehandedly" moment in the book.

I think either: 1) HBO went on their own and anointed Arya as the AA (and she wasn't supposed to be in GRRM's world) or 2) They haven't finished that yet.
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OnlyForNow
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In reply to BowSowy • 7:17a, 5/1/19
AG
That's why a lot of people are theorizing that the NK isn't dead. Both have to be destroyed (NK and 3ER).
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Furlock Bones
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In reply to Luke Smith • 7:18a, 5/1/19
AG
Luke Smith said:
Is it possible that Melisandre lit the Dothraki swords and sent them forth knowing full well they were going to die, as a large scale sacrifice to the Lord of Light?

Jorah looked upset they charged, like that wasn't the plan
Jorah was already visibly shaken well before the charge.
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SpreadsheetAg
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In reply to BowSowy • 7:29a, 5/1/19
AG
BowSowy said:
FAm I the only one that sort of wishes the NK would've actually killed Bran/3ER right before Arya killed the NK? As it stands now, there's not a lot of bitter to counteract the sweetness of the victory. Killing a Stark and apparently the world's memory would've made that battle more bittersweet which I think it needed.

Besides, wtf is 3ER's role going forward? I always thought he was sort of the yin to the NK's yang.
In the show yes, but in the books - the previous 3ER Bryndan Rivers (the old man in the roots of the tree) had his powers earlier and was sniffing out and ending Rebellions ... using his powers to change events...
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Cromagnum
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In reply to Luke Smith • 7:30a, 5/1/19
AG
Luke Smith said:
Is it possible that Melisandre lit the Dothraki swords and sent them forth knowing full well they were going to die, as a large scale sacrifice to the Lord of Light?

Jorah looked upset they charged, like that wasn't the plan


I like this take, but a sacrifice to the LoL requires burning
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Scientific
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7:38a, 5/1/19
AG
I never really got too caught up with the prophecies. A big component to the story revolves around so many of these characters justifying their right to the throne for xyz reason. More than one had a Nostradamus in their ear telling them why.

I'm in the camp that the last episode was good, but it was more because of the great eye candy. Years later most fans of The Wire feel the last season was it's weakest, despite having some of the best moments in the show. Halfway in, I think we'll view this season of GOT the same way.
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Goose06
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In reply to aTmAg • 7:39a, 5/1/19
AG
aTmAg said:
Goose06 said:
I'll add: the fact Arya killed the night king is very logical. They may not have done a great job setting it up (due to them trying to surprise us with who did it, most likely), but she's an expert assassin, she's an expert assassin in the dark, and she is great at sneaking around. While Arya doesn't necessarily fit the prophecy, it's very conceivable that the prophesy was false all along or that the lord of light is not real. Just like in our world you have multiple religions and they can't all be real, I think GRRM is making a point that in this world not all of these religions are 100% right, maybe they are all 100% wrong or maybe there is some truth to each one. Either way, a prophecy failing to be fulfilled is not surprising. However, in the books, I would be surprised if GRRM finished the NK in this manner...
Somebody else posted here that the NK is not in the books at all. And the GRRM stated that there wouldn't be. So that is apparently an invention of HBO. So there couldn't have been a "Arya saves the whole world singlehandedly" moment in the book.

I think either: 1) HBO went on their own and anointed Arya as the AA (and she wasn't supposed to be in GRRM's world) or 2) They haven't finished that yet.


Interesting, I did not remember that there was no night king. So the prophecy about azor ahai was just that the PTWP would lead the living to win the war during the long night and he would wield a flaming sword? What else was there to this prophecy? Was it even necessarily the fight against the white walkers that azor ahai referred to? Seems it was about saving Westeros from extinction but could that be a foreign invader or a crazy ***** like Cercie or some combination of Cercie and the white walkers?
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aTmAg
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In reply to Goose06 • 7:43a, 5/1/19
AG
Goose06 said:
aTmAg said:
Goose06 said:
I'll add: the fact Arya killed the night king is very logical. They may not have done a great job setting it up (due to them trying to surprise us with who did it, most likely), but she's an expert assassin, she's an expert assassin in the dark, and she is great at sneaking around. While Arya doesn't necessarily fit the prophecy, it's very conceivable that the prophesy was false all along or that the lord of light is not real. Just like in our world you have multiple religions and they can't all be real, I think GRRM is making a point that in this world not all of these religions are 100% right, maybe they are all 100% wrong or maybe there is some truth to each one. Either way, a prophecy failing to be fulfilled is not surprising. However, in the books, I would be surprised if GRRM finished the NK in this manner...
Somebody else posted here that the NK is not in the books at all. And the GRRM stated that there wouldn't be. So that is apparently an invention of HBO. So there couldn't have been a "Arya saves the whole world singlehandedly" moment in the book.

I think either: 1) HBO went on their own and anointed Arya as the AA (and she wasn't supposed to be in GRRM's world) or 2) They haven't finished that yet.


Interesting, I did not remember that there was no night king. So the prophecy about azor ahai was just that the PTWP would lead the living to win the war during the long night and he would wield a flaming sword? What else was there to this prophecy? Was it even necessarily the fight against the white walkers that azor ahai referred to? Seems it was about saving Westeros from extinction but could that be a foreign invader or a crazy ***** like Cercie or some combination of Cercie and the white walkers?
I don't remember if the flaming sword part was in the show or not. Anybody remember?
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Goose06
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7:46a, 5/1/19
AG
It was in the show. Remember Stannis pulling the sword out of the fire on dragon stone?

Oops on the emote
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aTmAg
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In reply to Goose06 • 7:51a, 5/1/19
AG
Goose06 said:
It was in the show. Remember Stannis pulling the sword out of the fire on dragon stone?
Yeah, then that is weird. Arya's dagger sure as hell wasn't on fire. And it would be stupid if it was referring to Beric Dondarrion since all he did was help save Arya so that she could later save the world. Seems like the saving the world part would be the bigger deal there.

If I had to guess, GRRM's original goal was to have somebody else be the AA, like Jamie and he will kill Cersie saving the world. And that would be the largest single kill in the story because Arya's kill wasn't even supposed to happen at all.
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OnlyForNow
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In reply to aTmAg • 8:01a, 5/1/19
AG
aTmAg said:
Goose06 said:
It was in the show. Remember Stannis pulling the sword out of the fire on dragon stone?
Yeah, then that is weird. Arya's dagger sure as hell wasn't on fire. And it would be stupid if it was referring to Beric Dondarrion since all he did was help save Arya so that she could later save the world. Seems like the saving the world part would be the bigger deal there.

If I had to guess, GRRM's original goal was to have somebody else be the AA, like Jamie and he will kill Cersie saving the world. And that would be the largest single kill in the story because Arya's kill wasn't even supposed to happen at all.
It's been said that the dragon bone handle of the catspaw dagger, which based on a combination of things, may have been a Targ family dagger, may represent fire along with the ruby set in the hilt.

And D&D basically said that, yes someone else will be AA in the books (if we're to believe that Arya is AA based on her killing the NK). They said they felt it shouldn't be Jon, and that they wanted to surprise folks with who ended up killing him and they felt that Arya was the right person.
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Belton Ag
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8:08a, 5/1/19
AG
I'm having trouble keeping up...

Has the word "Azor Ahai" ever once been mentioned in the show?

How many times has the word "Lightbringer" been mentioned in the show?
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aTmAg
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In reply to OnlyForNow • 8:11a, 5/1/19
AG
OnlyForNow said:
aTmAg said:
Goose06 said:
It was in the show. Remember Stannis pulling the sword out of the fire on dragon stone?
Yeah, then that is weird. Arya's dagger sure as hell wasn't on fire. And it would be stupid if it was referring to Beric Dondarrion since all he did was help save Arya so that she could later save the world. Seems like the saving the world part would be the bigger deal there.

If I had to guess, GRRM's original goal was to have somebody else be the AA, like Jamie and he will kill Cersie saving the world. And that would be the largest single kill in the story because Arya's kill wasn't even supposed to happen at all.
It's been said that the dragon bone handle of the catspaw dagger, which based on a combination of things, may have been a Targ family dagger, may represent fire along with the ruby set in the hilt.

And D&D basically said that, yes someone else will be AA in the books (if we're to believe that Arya is AA based on her killing the NK). They said they felt it shouldn't be Jon, and that they wanted to surprise folks with who ended up killing him and they felt that Arya was the right person.
If Arya is the AA in the show (because of what has happened thus far) then that I agree with the haters that they pretty much blew off the prophecy. The dragon bone and ruby explanation wouldn't cut it for me.

Does the prophecy say that the AA would save the world with the firey sword? Or just that he'd/she'd merely wield one? For example, if she started using Dondarrion's sword from here on out, would that satisfy the prophecy still?
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Orlando Ayala Cant Read
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8:14a, 5/1/19
AG
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My main problem with you this episode was the way they showed main characters fighting on top of dead bodies and the piles so high there is just no way that ever happens. The scene where you see Browne, Jamie, gray worm, and I think Gendry all in solo combat fighting off dozens of wights each... just not believable at all. It's like every non important character died but none of the mains did. And next episode we will have thousands of non main characters still around. How?
The writers / runners kinda screwed themselves by making the white walkers so fast and almost insurmountable. It left a sense of ridiculousness that so many people survived the battler of Winterfell. If this scene was always part of the end game then all along they shoulda made the white walkers a bit more human like and not so seemingly invincible.
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dc509
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In reply to Belton Ag • 8:16a, 5/1/19
AG
Belton Ag said:
I'm having trouble keeping up...

Has the word "Azor Ahai" ever once been mentioned in the show?

How many times has the word "Lightbringer" been mentioned in the show?
I don't remember those being mentioned at all. "The Prince Who Was Promised" has been mentioned quite a few times, but I don't it being given a name. If Lightbringer was mentioned it was along time ago, and the showrunners clearly decided they didn't have room to work that in.
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