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There is another big plot hole, but at this point I don't know if this is one of the typical tv writers "we don't care" or if they are going to actually try to resolve it and it happens in the next three episodes. That plot hole is that winter has come before and been beaten back, at least once by the Azor Ahai. But it came back again. It always comes back. If killing the Night King was the only way to stop it and he was killed before, then how did he come back again for this time?

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the NK was not killed. They (the first men) made a pact with the Night King to stay below the wall. The wildlings broke that pact.

bangobango said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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Silky Johnston said:

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Haven't read through all the comments, but was anyone else let down by the episode? It feels like that was the end of the show and I don't seem too interested in how it ends with Cersei. The threat of the WWs and the end of humanity was the the start of the show and the main storyline throughout, but it just kind of ended in a not very spectacular way.

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Yeah, there are some. A few came around to it on a second rewatch though.

I think there are some major surprises coming up. I don't think it's just going to fizzle out over the course of the next 3 episodes.

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After reading some of the actors comments about the decision to allow Arya get the big kill and how they knew that would upset people, I am starting to let myself believe the Winter threat is not over.

There is another big plot hole, but at this point I don't know if this is one of the typical tv writers "we don't care" or if they are going to actually try to resolve it and it happens in the next three episodes. That plot hole is that winter has come before and been beaten back, at least once by the Azor Ahai. But it came back again. It always comes back. If killing the Night King was the only way to stop it and he was killed before, then how did he come back again for this time?

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I thought Bran said no one had tried to kill him before

Champ Bailey said:

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claym711 said:

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So half the entire show was built up around winter is coming and NK's army, and they're wiped out in an episode that is a combo of LOTR, Top Gun, and Jurassic Park - even down to the kitchen scene.

Bran literally does nothing. Takes a nap or something.

Every important character except Jorah is saved at the last possible second throughout the episode.

Nothing original or surprising.

This show has just become big budget pop culture. It's still entertaining, but neither the plot, writing, or acting are special.

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This was posted yesterday, but if you didn't see it:

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Was wondering how she ran past a few thousand zombies and all of NK's buddies undetected.

bangobango said:

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PatAg said:

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bangobango said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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Silky Johnston said:

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Haven't read through all the comments, but was anyone else let down by the episode? It feels like that was the end of the show and I don't seem too interested in how it ends with Cersei. The threat of the WWs and the end of humanity was the the start of the show and the main storyline throughout, but it just kind of ended in a not very spectacular way.

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Yeah, there are some. A few came around to it on a second rewatch though.

I think there are some major surprises coming up. I don't think it's just going to fizzle out over the course of the next 3 episodes.

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After reading some of the actors comments about the decision to allow Arya get the big kill and how they knew that would upset people, I am starting to let myself believe the Winter threat is not over.

There is another big plot hole, but at this point I don't know if this is one of the typical tv writers "we don't care" or if they are going to actually try to resolve it and it happens in the next three episodes. That plot hole is that winter has come before and been beaten back, at least once by the Azor Ahai. But it came back again. It always comes back. If killing the Night King was the only way to stop it and he was killed before, then how did he come back again for this time?

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I thought Bran said no one had tried to kill him before

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Believe he said nobody tried to kill him with dragon fire before.

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I just didn't get the impression that he had been killed before. For one thing, the wall had not been broken up to this point. They never really went into specifics about any of it I guess

Quote:

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The threat of the WWs and the end of humanity was the the start of the show and the main storyline throughout, but it just kind of ended in a not very spectacular way.

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Agree. I think the storyline might have been better if somehow the Cersei situation was dealt with first, then the remaining united seven kingdoms all go north to face the threat.

This would obviously have taken a pretty big re-write, but the opportunity was there when all the big players from the North/Easteros had their meeting with Cersei & Euron at the Dragonpit.

I've said it before if/when GRRM finishes the books, I hope he takes the plot in a different direction than how the series ends up. Definitely not holding my breath.

That's right, I mixed up the pact part.

But, the NK has never been killed. The one we see get created by the CotF is the same one that Arya killed. (As far as we know up to this point.)

claym711 said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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claym711 said:

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So half the entire show was built up around winter is coming and NK's army, and they're wiped out in an episode that is a combo of LOTR, Top Gun, and Jurassic Park - even down to the kitchen scene.

Bran literally does nothing. Takes a nap or something.

Every important character except Jorah is saved at the last possible second throughout the episode.

Nothing original or surprising.

This show has just become big budget pop culture. It's still entertaining, but neither the plot, writing, or acting are special.

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This was posted yesterday, but if you didn't see it:

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Was wondering how she ran past a few thousand zombies and all of NK's buddies undetected.

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I know they tried to foreshadow it in the first episode of this season when Jon asked "How'd you sneak up on me?" But after watching again last night and seeing that there was a full circle of wights around the tree with no pathway in sight, I just don't see how it's believable. Maybe it will be explained in this next episode.

It gets hard for me to keep what is said in the books and what is said in the show separate, so the following is definitely in the books, not sure if in the show:

Winter is an event that reoccurs in westeros, but it's not seasonal. The summers a long, spanning years and sometimes even decades, but winter always comes.

Many, many years before the events of GOT, there was a great threat that almost ended the world. The assumption is that it was something like the apocalyptic threat we just witnessed in the last episode. Azor Ahai is the hero that prevented the end of the world of man.

Now, the big difference between the show and the book is that there is no night king in the books and I doubt that there ever will be, as I think the books will treat this more as almost a natural disaster than just setting up a big bad antagonist like the show went with.

I cannot remember if the show talked about previous battles against the Night or the winter, but I am pretty sure it did. How did those battles resolve without killing the night king? We saw how he was created. It doesn't make sense that the children of the forest would make another night king after the first one was stopped, so if the show did reference previous battles against winter, which I am positive that it has, (otherwise how do you explain the wall?) then how do they explain winning those battles without killing the night king?

My Dad Earl said:

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claym711 said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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claym711 said:

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So half the entire show was built up around winter is coming and NK's army, and they're wiped out in an episode that is a combo of LOTR, Top Gun, and Jurassic Park - even down to the kitchen scene.

Bran literally does nothing. Takes a nap or something.

Every important character except Jorah is saved at the last possible second throughout the episode.

Nothing original or surprising.

This show has just become big budget pop culture. It's still entertaining, but neither the plot, writing, or acting are special.

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This was posted yesterday, but if you didn't see it:

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Was wondering how she ran past a few thousand zombies and all of NK's buddies undetected.

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I know they tried to foreshadow it in the first episode of this season when Jon asked "How'd you sneak up on me?" But after watching again last night and seeing that there was a full circle of wights around the tree with no pathway in sight, I just don't see how it's believable. Maybe it will be explained in this next episode.

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it won't be. you just must accept that it was greatness.

bangobango said:

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I cannot remember if the show talked about previous battles against the Night or the winter, but I am pretty sure it did. How did those battles resolve without killing the night king? We saw how he was created. It doesn't make sense that the children of the forest would make another night king after the first one was stopped, so if the show did reference previous battles against winter, which I am positive that it has, (otherwise how do you explain the wall?) then how do they explain winning those battles without killing the night king?

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something i've been wondering about as well especially since they used the Dracula trope with the NK which included destroying all of his lieutenant white walkers.

spag.ag2003 said:

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My issue isn't even the lack of major character deaths, it's that they were all facing imminent death multiple times throughout the episode only to be magically saved by a buddy or a zombie lunch break.

This isn't new though, it started seasons ago (pretty much once the book material ran out). Jamie in the loot train as an example.

Ultimately it's fine - it makes for good TV I just think it's heavily overused and is moving away from one of the things that made this show great. Any character's number could be punched at any time. If the show has something for them to do in the final three episodes just don't show them magically escaping sure death five times an episode.

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I've said this before, but I never really rolled my eyes at the characters getting saved when they did. To me, it underscored how insanely lucky you have to be in combat like that just simply to survive. And then how Arya barely got to the night king and needed a trick to stab him. It felt like they were all fortunate as hell to have survived.

M.C. Swag said:

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spag.ag2003 said:

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My issue isn't even the lack of major character deaths, it's that they were all facing imminent death multiple times throughout the episode only to be magically saved by a buddy or a zombie lunch break.

This isn't new though, it started seasons ago (pretty much once the book material ran out). Jamie in the loot train as an example.

Ultimately it's fine - it makes for good TV I just think it's heavily overused and is moving away from one of the things that made this show great. Any character's number could be punched at any time. If the show has something for them to do in the final three episodes just don't show them magically escaping sure death five times an episode.

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Was listening to a podcast earlier that made the point of 'when was the last shocking death? (as in one you weren't prepared for) Oberyn Martell was there off-the-cuff response.

There's 100% a huge shift in the show once the books ran out. And part of that shift is how they treat the main characters of the show.

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No doubt about it. Even when they did try a "surprise" death aka Barristan the Bold losing to a bunch of masked losers in hallway, it came off as super campy and poorly written.

GRRM was legendary in his writing off the books, unfortunately even he doesn't seem up to being able to match that standar, yet alone the show writers.

And if they'd had a 70-year-old Barristan Selmy mow down every harpy that came at him and survived, people would call out the show for not having any balls anymore. Like they're doing now.

M.C. Swag said:

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spag.ag2003 said:

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My issue isn't even the lack of major character deaths, it's that they were all facing imminent death multiple times throughout the episode only to be magically saved by a buddy or a zombie lunch break.

This isn't new though, it started seasons ago (pretty much once the book material ran out). Jamie in the loot train as an example.

Ultimately it's fine - it makes for good TV I just think it's heavily overused and is moving away from one of the things that made this show great. Any character's number could be punched at any time. If the show has something for them to do in the final three episodes just don't show them magically escaping sure death five times an episode.

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Was listening to a podcast earlier that made the point of 'when was the last shocking death? (as in one you weren't prepared for) Oberyn Martell was there off-the-cuff response.

There's 100% a huge shift in the show once the books ran out. And part of that shift is how they treat the main characters of the show.

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Was telling my wife last night there's no way show runners would've killed off the Viper. Especially not how Martin did it.

M.C. Swag said:

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spag.ag2003 said:

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My issue isn't even the lack of major character deaths, it's that they were all facing imminent death multiple times throughout the episode only to be magically saved by a buddy or a zombie lunch break.

This isn't new though, it started seasons ago (pretty much once the book material ran out). Jamie in the loot train as an example.

Ultimately it's fine - it makes for good TV I just think it's heavily overused and is moving away from one of the things that made this show great. Any character's number could be punched at any time. If the show has something for them to do in the final three episodes just don't show them magically escaping sure death five times an episode.

---

Was listening to a podcast earlier that made the point of 'when was the last shocking death? (as in one you weren't prepared for) Oberyn Martell was there off-the-cuff response.

There's 100% a huge shift in the show once the books ran out. And part of that shift is how they treat the main characters of the show.

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I would say the Greyjoy fleet being sunk was pretty surprising, but everyone was just happy that they killed the Sand Snakes.

swc93 said:

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bobinator said:

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I think finding random main characters dead at the start of the next episode would be even worse than them not dying in this episode.

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I doubt they do it; but I've seen it before in battle movies.

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It could be done right. For instance, someone like Pod grievously wounded and dies days later. And I like the idea of Missandie not making it. That's a complete shocker considering pretty much everyone thought Grey Worm would die and she would make it. Or if Grey Worm commits suicide out of guilt of watching his Unsullied get overrun while we was behind the fire trench, or because he makes it all the way through the battle only to find Missandie dead?

What if one of the twists this season is that the character casualties during the BoW were significantly minimized only to have several characters die in between BoW and actually making it to KL? There's three full episodes to go.

Furlock Bones said:

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bangobango said:

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I cannot remember if the show talked about previous battles against the Night or the winter, but I am pretty sure it did. How did those battles resolve without killing the night king? We saw how he was created. It doesn't make sense that the children of the forest would make another night king after the first one was stopped, so if the show did reference previous battles against winter, which I am positive that it has, (otherwise how do you explain the wall?) then how do they explain winning those battles without killing the night king?

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something i've been wondering about as well especially since they used the Dracula trope with the NK which included destroying all of his lieutenant white walkers.

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Just have to wait for the Prequels to find out...

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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And if they'd had a 70-year-old Barristan Selmy mow down every harpy that came at him and survived, people would call out the show for not having any balls anymore. Like they're doing now.

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Way to over simplify.

Nobody has a problem with showing Brienne being a badass and killing a bunch of zombies. The problem is showing her surrounded, taken to the ground, way overwhelmed and then somehow surviving, over and over again. Same with Jon.

Nobody is saying you cannot have those people be awesome and win fights against bad odds, they're saying stop using a cheap trick over and over of showing them LOSING a fight only to be bailed out by seemingly magical means.

Same with Jaime and Sam.

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Jon survives because he isn't a real Stark.

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What exactly do you mean by this? What does him being resurrected by Melisandre have to do with him not being a "real Stark"?

Plus, he IS a real Stark. Not just by blood, but by his character. He is every bit Ned Stark's son. Honor always comes first.

M.C. Swag said:

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gigemJTH12 said:

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No I get it. I'm just saying that in that movie the shark is the only villain. So comparing the shark to the Night King doesn't work bc my entire point was that I'm okay Cersei is the final challenge bc she was the entire show.

The night king was hardly ever around.

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yes, i understand. Cersei had more screen time. That is a basic fact.

But dude, they've been building the WWs since the beginning. The 'winter is coming' motif is a direct link to them (winter = death = WW). The prince who was promised prophecy (which was the entire plot arc for Dany and Jon) was a consistent theme as well. The PWIW isn't some prophesized hero sent to overthrow 1 crazy queen. They were meant to FIGHT BACK THE NIGHT.

The NK was an immortal who could raise the dead, control the dead, had a zombie dragon, and to some varying degree, control the weather. That man was just defeated. How can we as an audience feel any sort of suspense about the conflict with Cersei in comparison to what they just defeated? I mean hell, Arya could literally sneak through a pack of zombies to stab the NK...she could assassinate Cersei in her sleep. Boom. game over.

My point is; the NK literally and thematically was the big bad. He was ICE. He was WINTER. He was DEATH. They just beat that. Now I'm supposed to buy that Cersei is the last challenge? She's the reason Jon was resurrected amongst smoke and ash?

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This.

When ep 3 dropped, we were on page 156. I just saw the episode and an catching up on the thread. Now on page 183 or so.

MW03 said:

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So when the Dothraki charged, it looked like they reared up right as they hit the dead. I went back and found that moment on HBO go...



I lightened it up to see what they ran into, and this the image...




WTF is that?

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It's a giants leg; I could see it clearly on HBO Now for 1/2 a second

Won Won died at Winterfell. Guess they didn't figure out to burn the bodies after Battle of the *******s?
Or maybe there were other giants.

In the show, I feel like Old Nan told Bran the story about the long night in season 1, but I don't remember. Maybe I'll go watch it later.

In the books, there are 2 different stories, possibly about the same event but no one knows for sure.

The first is the story of the long night and the Children and the First men join up to stop it, and Bran the Builder builds the wall after the win, or come to a truce or something.

The other is what the followers of R'hllor believe. Azor Ahai defeated the "Great Other" with the magical sword Lightbringer.

I don't remember all the details.