M.C. Swag said:

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CapCityAg89 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Not With a Bang, But a Whimper (***TL;DR warning***)

The good:

The not so good:
[ol]

The battle sequence(s):.

Fan Service Moments (or lack thereof):

Sam

The Night King's demise

• I've already mentioned this but it bears repeating: The 'winter is coming' motif is a direct link to the White Walkers (winter = death = WW). The prince who was promised prophecy (which was the entire plot arc for Dany and Jon) was a consistent theme as well. The PWWP isn't some prophesized hero sent to overthrow 1 crazy queen. They were meant to FIGHT BACK THE NIGHT. The NK was an immortal who could raise the dead, control the dead, had a zombie dragon, and to some varying degree, control the weather. That man was just defeated. How can we as an audience feel any sort of suspense about the conflict with Cersei in comparison to what they just defeated? I mean hell, Arya could literally sneak through a pack of zombies to stab the NK...she could assassinate Cersei in her sleep. Boom. game over. My point is; the NK literally and thematically was the big bad. He was ICE. He was WINTER. He was DEATH. They just beat that. Now I'm supposed to buy that Cersei is the last challenge? She's the reason Jon was resurrected amongst smoke and ash? Suffice to say, the sequence of events (killing the Nk then killing Cersei) is a problem for me.

[/ol]
[ol]

• Since the moment they showed that killing the White Walker also kills those he turned, it was obvious how this was going to end. And even then I had my issues with that (8/21/2017):
  

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  "The biggest reveal of this episode: Killing a White Walker also kills the Wights who follow him. This is a fairly common trope amongst fantasy (science) fiction. From Ender's Game to Lord of the Rings to even the repulsive Independence Day: Resurgence film - - "The monstrous enemy is a hive mind that can be killed at once by slaying the queen." I'm a bit disappointed by that reveal. It's too easy and clearly reveals the method of conclusion for this story."

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[/ol]I get it. I get that there's only so many ways you can defeat an overwhelming force and the 'Dracula achilles heel' is one of the most sensible ways to solve that. And I was able to reconcile with that conclusion. It was the obvious destination but in my mind, the method was more important than the act itself. Which leads me to the act itself. Arya killing the Night King completely obliterated the Jon Snow arc for me. This isn't about 'subverting expectations' (the sexy lingo of the last couple years for Hollywood thanks to SW: The Last Jedi), it's about paying off narrative arcs. The reason Brienne being knighted was so good was because it was an absolutely earned moment that cap-stoned her and Jamie's relationship perfectly.

To put it frankly, Arya didn't earn that kill. Jon was out there thwarting the Night King as often as he could and actually died trying to do so. Melisandre made it abundantly clear that Jon Snow, and Beric, and herself were all brought back for a reason. Beric fulfilled his purpose of saving Arya and died. Melisandre fulfilled her purpose of giving Arya a pep talk and died. What is Jon Snow's purpose? Why is he still alive? Too kill Cersei? Arya is more than capable of killing anyone in the world at this point. To take back the iron throne? That seems like a shallow objective that runs contrary to everything he has been preaching and practicing. Fighting the dead and protecting the realm was his life's dedication (literally). And Arya gets that moment? Not my cup of tea.

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Very good post. I agree with almost everything you posted and so deleted them - I left only the things I'd like to discuss.

First, the NK - that was certainly NOT a 10+ year build-up. The character doesn't even exist in the books and likely will not. It was a tool to "put a face" to the threat from "Winter" which would appeal to the show viewers. It was at best, a 3 year build-up (he wasn't part of the first experiences with the WW in seasons 1 and 2). That's important as I do not think the character really had any supporting narrative from the underlying story. HE wasn't the "big bad" - the forces of the night and of winter were the collective big bad.

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True, but the White Walkers do exist. Whether there's a Night King character or not is irrelevant to the fact that the White Walkers (which he is one of) is part of that build up and has been since Page 1 of the books and :01 of the TV series.

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You just can't really fight that in a 70 hour show.

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Agreed. Which I blame on HBO. No one forced this timeline on them. The fan support for this show is unlike anything I've ever seen. They could have used an endless amount of resources to make this show as long as it was necessary to convey whatever end they needed.

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GRRM avoided the singular "Sauron" bad guy for a reason. I think he wanted to avoid the kind of showdown you're complaining about. I have no idea how he will resolve the northern question in the books, but the fundamental arc where Jon will be resurrected; Jon will unite the North; Dany will defeat the slavers and get to Westeros; Dany will be convinced of the threat from Winter; Dany will bring her Dragons to Winterfell - I think will remain. That unity will have value that will play out in the books (hopefully), but to your point, it will not involve a singular kill. To me, that mean's Jon Snow has a different purpose to his story.

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Total agreement here. You nailed this.

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If you assume Jon has a broader purpose, having Arya take the shot actually makes a ton of sense. Her story has been one of focus on the past - insults by Sansa, not being included in the "boy stuff", the death of the baker's boy, the death of her father, death/suffering by her friends. She lived for revenge for things that happened in the past. Last season and this one have been about changing that perspective to realize the importance of moving forward, love and family - working together ("the pack survives"), appreciating our differences (Sansa), and the value of romantic love (Gendry). She didn't kill the NK because of revenge - she killed him because she could. Because she was the best trained and best skilled to do it.

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Me and you have different takes on this. I took arya's story as the 'Jon Snow' for the human trials of the story. Arya's journey was revenge for sure, but it was also for justice. Justice against those who wronged against House Stark. Jon was the representative for humanity against the greater threat. They're both heroes but 'designed' to fight different opponents imo. Is Arya 'worthy' of killing the Night King? It's debatable...but it's not a debate about Jon.

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My belief is that Jon IS "The song of Ice and Fire" (Ice is Starks and Fire is Targs). His story starts as a pawn in the Game of Thrones and ends with the Dream of Spring. The end of the book series is NOT the Winds of Winter. My assumption is the basic story told through last season and the first three episodes of this one is that book. These last three episodes will cover the Dream of Spring. Minus, of course, GRRM wrapping up all the dumb tangents which the show just ignored. I do not think that story is just killing Cercei (although I do think that will happen). I think it's actually breaking the wheel - creating a new world (a Spring) where you don't have an Iron Throne. Jon/Aegon is the one who does that not Dany.

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At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion and we just disagree. The Song of Ice and Fire had a literal meaning (Night king who was literally made of ice vs fire breathing dragons) and a metaphorical one (being Jon Snow). I believe both are at the heart of the story and it's not a matter of 'prioritizing' one over the other.

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again, the title has nothing to do with the Night King in the show

M.C. Swag said:

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Me and you have different takes on this. I took arya's story as the 'Jon Snow' for the human trials of the story. Arya's journey was revenge for sure, but it was also for justice. Justice against those who wronged against House Stark. Jon was the representative for humanity against the greater threat. They're both heroes but 'designed' to fight different opponents imo. Is Arya 'worthy' of killing the Night King? It's debatable...but it's not a debate about Jon.

At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion and we just disagree. The Song of Ice and Fire had a literal meaning (Night king who was literally made of ice vs fire breathing dragons) and a metaphorical one (being Jon Snow). I believe both are at the heart of the story and it's not a matter of 'prioritizing' one over the other.

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Great thoughts and I like this description on Arya a bunch. But I think it better explains why she's the right person to take the kill shot.

If the Night King is a show simplification of winter and the white walkers (forces of evil) in the book, Arya is a show simplification of the forces of man/humanity that must unite to end them - led by Jon. The Catspaw dagger is then a simplification of broader magic (swords, dragon glass, the Wall, Horns of Winter/Dragon) that was hinted at early in the show, but dropped when they left the books (AND which people are rightfully criticizing as now being meaningless).

So magic will be used by humanity, led by a resurrected hero, to defeat evil. The fantasy theme of a single hero defeating a seemingly all-powerful bad guy is contra to everything GRRM has written. Expecting the most likely hero to save everyone was probably mis-guided.

Look at these dicks.

Icecream_Ag said:

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wangus12 said:

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The only thing Jon Snow is ever going to be remembered for is bending the knee to Dany.

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and cave sex

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Taking *****es to waterfalls

CapCityAg89 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Me and you have different takes on this. I took arya's story as the 'Jon Snow' for the human trials of the story. Arya's journey was revenge for sure, but it was also for justice. Justice against those who wronged against House Stark. Jon was the representative for humanity against the greater threat. They're both heroes but 'designed' to fight different opponents imo. Is Arya 'worthy' of killing the Night King? It's debatable...but it's not a debate about Jon.

At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion and we just disagree. The Song of Ice and Fire had a literal meaning (Night king who was literally made of ice vs fire breathing dragons) and a metaphorical one (being Jon Snow). I believe both are at the heart of the story and it's not a matter of 'prioritizing' one over the other.

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Great thoughts and I like this description on Arya a bunch. But I think it better explains why she's the right person to take the kill shot.

If the Night King is a show simplification of winter and the white walkers (forces of evil) in the book, Arya is a show simplification of the forces of man/humanity that must unite to end them - led by Jon. The Catspaw dagger is then a simplification of broader magic (swords, dragon glass, the Wall, Horns of Winter/Dragon) that was hinted at early in the show, but dropped when they left the books (AND which people are rightfully criticizing as now being meaningless).

So magic will be used by humanity, led by a resurrected hero, to defeat evil. The fantasy theme of a single hero defeating a seemingly all-powerful bad guy is contra to everything GRRM has written. Expecting the most likely hero to save everyone was probably mis-guided.

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For sure. I really appreciate the back-and-forth. I just wanted 'more' I guess. I've been frustrated with the rushed approach since season 7 and it all kinda came to a head last night.

My expectations for Game of Thrones have declined since season 7. It's now all about what's "supposed to happen" and the twists and turns that made Game of Thrones what it is are all but gone.

spence10 said:

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My expectations for Game of Thrones have declined since season 7. It's now all about what's "supposed to happen" and the twists and turns that made Game of Thrones what it is are all but gone.

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Literally everyone on this thread predicted huge deaths and possibly even everyone dying this episode. And it didn't happen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bipsnh/after_reading_last_nights_postepisode_discussion/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

gigemJTH12 said:

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spence10 said:

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My expectations for Game of Thrones have declined since season 7. It's now all about what's "supposed to happen" and the twists and turns that made Game of Thrones what it is are all but gone.

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Literally everyone on this thread predicted huge deaths and possibly even everyone dying this episode. And it didn't happen.

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Lmao everyone saying "the twists and turns didn't happen" are the ones who are upset they didn't get a more cliche'd ending. How ironic

Thinking back, it would have been cool to have Jon and the Night King in a battle, Jon getting his ass kicked, and then Arya stabbing the Night King in the back exactly how Arthur Dayne went down.

Ranger222 said:

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Can we talk a little about Melisandre in terms of her role in this entire series? I'm fine with everything she did last night. Lit some swords, lit some wood, told Arya what her true purpose was. Ok great, no problems here.

I'm just not satisfied with her ending and really her meaning. So her destiny was to strike out the terror of the night and bring light -- accomplished. But why then, if this was her real purpose, was she messing around with Stannis for so long and his pursuit of the Iron Throne? She just realized after she left Winterfell what her true purpose is and just been hanging out?

We can say that her line to Arya about stamping out "blue eyes" and the call back to season 4 (?) was "great writing", but when she first found Arya with Gendry, she cared little about her if she knew then that Arya would ultimately kill the NK and that was Melisandre's true mission in the assist. She still cared more about Gendry then! I think it was more of the writers going back and using something of little consequence back in season 4 to play it up here because it was convenient. "Blue eyes" was not even emphasized in Melisandre's quote in season 4.

And this also plays into what the 'Lord of Light' wants with Jon and his true purpose....she says that Beric has served his purpose and now will die once the LoL is finished with him. Well....the NK is defeated. What is Jon's purpose now with the LoL? Here is a bigger question -- once that task is completed, is Jon just gonna die as he was brought back to serve one role?

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Melisandre never knew everything that was going to happen. She only could interpret visions that the Lord of Light showed her. When she saw Arya in season 4, up to that point she had no idea about the army of the dead. She didn't find out about the threat in the north until right after Gendry escaped and they received a raven from the Wall. That's when she told Stannis to change his direction from the throne to the army of the dead.

When she met Arya the first time, all she saw was Arya shutting the eyes of many. She probably had no idea who until she saw her again at Winterfell.

I thought they did a great job with her character. Showing how imperfect she is and how difficult it was for her to interpret what the Lord of Light wanted. Her interpretations were right some of the time but when they weren't it was devastating to her and those around her. In the end, she ultimately succeeded in her purpose by uniting Jon and Dany and directing Arya to fulfill her purpose.

As for Jon, no one ever said that he had to kill the NK, just that he had a role to play. Jon united armies from all over the kingdoms to ultimately defeat the NK. Without Jon, the NK slaughters Westeros one army at a time.

M.C. Swag said:

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CapCityAg89 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Me and you have different takes on this. I took arya's story as the 'Jon Snow' for the human trials of the story. Arya's journey was revenge for sure, but it was also for justice. Justice against those who wronged against House Stark. Jon was the representative for humanity against the greater threat. They're both heroes but 'designed' to fight different opponents imo. Is Arya 'worthy' of killing the Night King? It's debatable...but it's not a debate about Jon.

At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion and we just disagree. The Song of Ice and Fire had a literal meaning (Night king who was literally made of ice vs fire breathing dragons) and a metaphorical one (being Jon Snow). I believe both are at the heart of the story and it's not a matter of 'prioritizing' one over the other.

---

Great thoughts and I like this description on Arya a bunch. But I think it better explains why she's the right person to take the kill shot.

If the Night King is a show simplification of winter and the white walkers (forces of evil) in the book, Arya is a show simplification of the forces of man/humanity that must unite to end them - led by Jon. The Catspaw dagger is then a simplification of broader magic (swords, dragon glass, the Wall, Horns of Winter/Dragon) that was hinted at early in the show, but dropped when they left the books (AND which people are rightfully criticizing as now being meaningless).

So magic will be used by humanity, led by a resurrected hero, to defeat evil. The fantasy theme of a single hero defeating a seemingly all-powerful bad guy is contra to everything GRRM has written. Expecting the most likely hero to save everyone was probably mis-guided.

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For sure. I really appreciate the back-and-forth. I just wanted 'more' I guess. I've been frustrated with the rushed approach since season 7 and it all kinda came to a head last night.

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I agree with this completely. Simplifying was good. Cramming 2.5 (parts of DWD and FFC, plus WOW and SOS) BIG novels into 13 episodes was dumb. And honestly, aside from fatigue by the show runners, I'm not sure what the hell the thinking was by HBO. They could've easily extended the whole thing for another 7 episodes with full seasons for 7 and 8.

Wow!

(Not fake.)

Good lord... talk about overboard

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Wow!

(Not fake.)

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Lol, how can they see anything in a fully lit auditorium? I had to turn the lights off.

I can't wait to see Cersei and Dany sit down and negotiate a treaty where they agree to share the throne and everything ends peacefully. No one will see that coming.

So far, this "palm reader" in Season 5, Episode 1 has played spoiler.

1. We already know she married a king and not a Prince.

2. She'll have 3 children, all will have gold shrouds...meaning they will all die.

3. She'll be queen for a time, until a "younger more beautiful to cast you down and take all you hold dear".
Obviously means Dany, unless some strange twist has a Stark girl on the thrown.

4. The book goes in more detail in telling her that her "little brother" will choke the life out of her.
Jamie or Tyrion?

Thought this to be an interesting nugget from a few seasons ago.

CapCityAg89 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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CapCityAg89 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Me and you have different takes on this. I took arya's story as the 'Jon Snow' for the human trials of the story. Arya's journey was revenge for sure, but it was also for justice. Justice against those who wronged against House Stark. Jon was the representative for humanity against the greater threat. They're both heroes but 'designed' to fight different opponents imo. Is Arya 'worthy' of killing the Night King? It's debatable...but it's not a debate about Jon.

At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion and we just disagree. The Song of Ice and Fire had a literal meaning (Night king who was literally made of ice vs fire breathing dragons) and a metaphorical one (being Jon Snow). I believe both are at the heart of the story and it's not a matter of 'prioritizing' one over the other.

---

Great thoughts and I like this description on Arya a bunch. But I think it better explains why she's the right person to take the kill shot.

If the Night King is a show simplification of winter and the white walkers (forces of evil) in the book, Arya is a show simplification of the forces of man/humanity that must unite to end them - led by Jon. The Catspaw dagger is then a simplification of broader magic (swords, dragon glass, the Wall, Horns of Winter/Dragon) that was hinted at early in the show, but dropped when they left the books (AND which people are rightfully criticizing as now being meaningless).

So magic will be used by humanity, led by a resurrected hero, to defeat evil. The fantasy theme of a single hero defeating a seemingly all-powerful bad guy is contra to everything GRRM has written. Expecting the most likely hero to save everyone was probably mis-guided.

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For sure. I really appreciate the back-and-forth. I just wanted 'more' I guess. I've been frustrated with the rushed approach since season 7 and it all kinda came to a head last night.

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I agree with this completely. Simplifying was good. Cramming 2.5 (parts of DWD and FFC, plus WOW and SOS) BIG novels into 13 episodes was dumb. And honestly, aside from fatigue by the show runners, I'm not sure what the hell the thinking was by HBO. They could've easily extended the whole thing for another 7 episodes with full seasons for 7 and 8.

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I bet it was about having to renew contracts with every single actor/actress. It's actually an incredible feat that they have kept so much consistency in the cast for as big as it is. So you are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place: do you want to take the risk of telling the story to it's fullest extent, and risk everyone being pissed off because Arya (she would probably be the easiest to write out due to the FM thing) changed in season 7? Or do you keep all your core cast without having to explode your budget, but at the expense of some of the intricacies of the plot?

Here We Stand

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Here We Stand

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...broken hearted?

F that. I watched with 6 buddies and thank god we are close and told our one chatty friend to STFU. Just like Aggie football(if I'm not at the game) I prefer to watch this show alone or with like 2 friends max.

Jon's purpose was clearly to unite the armies to defeat the Night King. Which he did after he was brought back from the dead. Also, the world was going to always go on if the Night King was defeated. Now that it's done they still have the whole throne thing to settle... you know, the actual title of the show. The thing that they've been talking about aside from the army of the dead for 8 seasons. Jon still has plenty of purpose left.