****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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LegacySuitesandSolutions
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I enjoyed last night and was glued to the TV. My thoughts:

-How do people have large watch parties for this? I know there was very little dialogue last night but that woulda driven me crazy to have any noise around me!

-I LOVED LOVED LOVED the Dolthraki fires slowly being put out. Thought that was well done and as noted above it really illustrated how almost unbeatable the white walkers were.

-One thing I think the writers/producers kinda screwed themselves on was making the white walkers look so fast and unbeatable most of the episode, but then right when they swarm the main characters they were too slow to finish off the kill? That really did make it seem more Walking Dead type. The writers shoulda had them a bit more human like in that regard so that it didn't seem so unlikely that the main characters ended up not dying when they were clearly swarmed and outnumbered.

-Should have explained better where Arya jumped out from to get the kill at the end. I loved it, but it was kind of Matrixy.

Overall, I think TV is meant to enjoy and it was enjoyable TV. I'm not one to read into things too much so maybe that's why I enjoyed it.
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Beezy2389
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I could actually see that. I assume the Mountain would be unfazed by a dagger to the chest. Maybe Arya tries to pull the same move and doesn't realize the Mountain is already dead. Sort of a combination between Oberyn's death and the Night King's.
Txgunrnnr
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canadiaggie said:

Good lord this thread has become unreadable. Lots of armchair generals and veterans of zombie movies insisting they'd stop the WW dead in their tracks, zero casualties, and Jon fanboys (of which I am one, truthfully) butthurt that someone else hit the buzzer beater 3.
OK, this is actually funny! Thanks, I needed a laugh.
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” -Henry Ford
Brian Earl Spilner
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Trying to catch up in this thread on Mondays:
chase128
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I gotta say I really enjoyed the music in this episode. At the end, it felt so chilling and so perfect
CapCityAg89
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M.C. Swag said:


Not With a Bang, But a Whimper (***TL;DR warning***)

The good:

The not so good:
[ol]
  • The battle sequence(s):.
  • Fan Service Moments (or lack thereof):
  • Sam
  • The Night King's demise
    • I've already mentioned this but it bears repeating: The 'winter is coming' motif is a direct link to the White Walkers (winter = death = WW). The prince who was promised prophecy (which was the entire plot arc for Dany and Jon) was a consistent theme as well. The PWWP isn't some prophesized hero sent to overthrow 1 crazy queen. They were meant to FIGHT BACK THE NIGHT. The NK was an immortal who could raise the dead, control the dead, had a zombie dragon, and to some varying degree, control the weather. That man was just defeated. How can we as an audience feel any sort of suspense about the conflict with Cersei in comparison to what they just defeated? I mean hell, Arya could literally sneak through a pack of zombies to stab the NK...she could assassinate Cersei in her sleep. Boom. game over. My point is; the NK literally and thematically was the big bad. He was ICE. He was WINTER. He was DEATH. They just beat that. Now I'm supposed to buy that Cersei is the last challenge? She's the reason Jon was resurrected amongst smoke and ash? Suffice to say, the sequence of events (killing the Nk then killing Cersei) is a problem for me.
    [/ol]
    [ol]
    • Since the moment they showed that killing the White Walker also kills those he turned, it was obvious how this was going to end. And even then I had my issues with that (8/21/2017):
      Quote:

      "The biggest reveal of this episode: Killing a White Walker also kills the Wights who follow him. This is a fairly common trope amongst fantasy (science) fiction. From Ender's Game to Lord of the Rings to even the repulsive Independence Day: Resurgence film - - "The monstrous enemy is a hive mind that can be killed at once by slaying the queen." I'm a bit disappointed by that reveal. It's too easy and clearly reveals the method of conclusion for this story."
    [/ol]I get it. I get that there's only so many ways you can defeat an overwhelming force and the 'Dracula achilles heel' is one of the most sensible ways to solve that. And I was able to reconcile with that conclusion. It was the obvious destination but in my mind, the method was more important than the act itself. Which leads me to the act itself. Arya killing the Night King completely obliterated the Jon Snow arc for me. This isn't about 'subverting expectations' (the sexy lingo of the last couple years for Hollywood thanks to SW: The Last Jedi), it's about paying off narrative arcs. The reason Brienne being knighted was so good was because it was an absolutely earned moment that cap-stoned her and Jamie's relationship perfectly.

    To put it frankly, Arya didn't earn that kill. Jon was out there thwarting the Night King as often as he could and actually died trying to do so. Melisandre made it abundantly clear that Jon Snow, and Beric, and herself were all brought back for a reason. Beric fulfilled his purpose of saving Arya and died. Melisandre fulfilled her purpose of giving Arya a pep talk and died. What is Jon Snow's purpose? Why is he still alive? Too kill Cersei? Arya is more than capable of killing anyone in the world at this point. To take back the iron throne? That seems like a shallow objective that runs contrary to everything he has been preaching and practicing. Fighting the dead and protecting the realm was his life's dedication (literally). And Arya gets that moment? Not my cup of tea.
    Very good post. I agree with almost everything you posted and so deleted them - I left only the things I'd like to discuss.

    First, the NK - that was certainly NOT a 10+ year build-up. The character doesn't even exist in the books and likely will not. It was a tool to "put a face" to the threat from "Winter" which would appeal to the show viewers. It was at best, a 3 year build-up (he wasn't part of the first experiences with the WW in seasons 1 and 2). That's important as I do not think the character really had any supporting narrative from the underlying story. HE wasn't the "big bad" - the forces of the night and of winter were the collective big bad. You just can't really fight that in a 70 hour show.

    GRRM avoided the singular "Sauron" bad guy for a reason. I think he wanted to avoid the kind of showdown you're complaining about. I have no idea how he will resolve the northern question in the books, but the fundamental arc where Jon will be resurrected; Jon will unite the North; Dany will defeat the slavers and get to Westeros; Dany will be convinced of the threat from Winter; Dany will bring her Dragons to Winterfell - I think will remain. That unity will have value that will play out in the books (hopefully), but to your point, it will not involve a singular kill. To me, that mean's Jon Snow has a different purpose to his story. He enabled the end to winter by all the things he's done the last two seasons - he didn't need to actually kill that NK to validate that fact.

    If you assume Jon has a broader purpose, having Arya take the shot actually makes a ton of sense. Her story has been one of focus on the past - insults by Sansa, not being included in the "boy stuff", the death of the baker's boy, the death of her father, death/suffering by her friends. She lived for revenge for things that happened in the past. Last season and this one have been about changing that perspective to realize the importance of moving forward, love and family - working together ("the pack survives"), appreciating our differences (Sansa), and the value of romantic love (Gendry). She didn't kill the NK because of revenge - she killed him because she could. Because she was the best trained and best skilled to do it.

    My belief is that Jon IS "The song of Ice and Fire" (Ice is Starks and Fire is Targs). His story starts as a pawn in the Game of Thrones and ends with the Dream of Spring. The end of the book series is NOT the Winds of Winter. My assumption is the basic story told through last season and the first three episodes of this one is that book. These last three episodes will cover the Dream of Spring. Minus, of course, GRRM wrapping up all the dumb tangents which the show just ignored. I do not think that story is just killing Cercei (although I do think that will happen). I think it's actually breaking the wheel - creating a new world (a Spring) where you don't have an Iron Throne. Jon/Aegon is the one who does that not Dany.
    chase128
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    So GRRM told D&D that Arya was to kill the NK right? I wonder what GRRM has in store for Arya in the books since the NK hasn't been in the books yet (who knows if he ever will be?)
    SoTXAg09
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    Lol yep. I was 25 pages behind. Ain't nobody got time for that.
    COAg15
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    The directors said they knew Arya was to be the one to do it for the surprise factor. Not sure that GRRM will incorporate that into his books (if he gets there)
    bangobango
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    Icecream_Ag said:

    C@LAg said:

    WelchAg said:

    Its weird, but I wanted someone really meaningful to die. I wanted to experience that crushing gut punch. Those raw emotions have made this show so successful.
    instead we get Lady Plot Armor Mormont. Able to survive getting slammed hard by a giant as well as squeezed. All in the name of fan service to give her a water-cooler moment out.
    your absolute disdain for an 11year old is scary


    Good night, no it's not. Quit trying to make this something weird. It's okay if people don't like fictional characters.
    CapCityAg89
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    chase128 said:

    So GRRM told D&D that Arya was to kill the NK right? I wonder what GRRM has in store for Arya in the books since the NK hasn't been in the books yet (who knows if he ever will be?)
    No. They said they figured it out 3 seasons ago and tried to divert attention from her in the last 20-30 minutes so it would be a surprise. There is not, nor, do I think, will there be, a Night King in the books. Pure D&D.
    DSAg44
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    the last episode should end with cersei blowing up everybody right in the beginning. It doesn't kill the mutts or the dragons though and then have an 1.5 hours of the dogs and dragons running through the hillside.
    Furlock Bones
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    DSAg44 said:

    the last episode should end with cersei blowing up everybody right in the beginning. It doesn't kill the mutts or the dragons though and then have an 1.5 hours of the dogs and dragons running through the hillside.
    it would makes as much sense as the rest of the story at this point.
    bangobango
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    Here is my crazy ass theory I just thought of reading this thread - Night King takes over The Mountain.
    CE Lounge Lizzard
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    canadiaggie said:

    Good lord this thread has become unreadable. Lots of armchair generals and veterans of zombie movies insisting they'd stop the WW dead in their tracks, zero casualties, and Jon fanboys (of which I am one, truthfully) butthurt that someone else hit the buzzer beater 3.

    seems to capture the opinion of many on here it appears.
    ATM1876
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    Ha, turns out that the weapon that we thought was some sort of primitive sniper rifle was really just a staff that separated into two pieces so that she could wield each half simultaneously. I guess that makes more sense...
    M.C. Swag
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    CapCityAg89 said:

    M.C. Swag said:


    Not With a Bang, But a Whimper (***TL;DR warning***)

    The good:

    The not so good:
    [ol]
  • The battle sequence(s):.
  • Fan Service Moments (or lack thereof):
  • Sam
  • The Night King's demise
    • I've already mentioned this but it bears repeating: The 'winter is coming' motif is a direct link to the White Walkers (winter = death = WW). The prince who was promised prophecy (which was the entire plot arc for Dany and Jon) was a consistent theme as well. The PWWP isn't some prophesized hero sent to overthrow 1 crazy queen. They were meant to FIGHT BACK THE NIGHT. The NK was an immortal who could raise the dead, control the dead, had a zombie dragon, and to some varying degree, control the weather. That man was just defeated. How can we as an audience feel any sort of suspense about the conflict with Cersei in comparison to what they just defeated? I mean hell, Arya could literally sneak through a pack of zombies to stab the NK...she could assassinate Cersei in her sleep. Boom. game over. My point is; the NK literally and thematically was the big bad. He was ICE. He was WINTER. He was DEATH. They just beat that. Now I'm supposed to buy that Cersei is the last challenge? She's the reason Jon was resurrected amongst smoke and ash? Suffice to say, the sequence of events (killing the Nk then killing Cersei) is a problem for me.
    [/ol]
    [ol]
    • Since the moment they showed that killing the White Walker also kills those he turned, it was obvious how this was going to end. And even then I had my issues with that (8/21/2017):
      Quote:

      "The biggest reveal of this episode: Killing a White Walker also kills the Wights who follow him. This is a fairly common trope amongst fantasy (science) fiction. From Ender's Game to Lord of the Rings to even the repulsive Independence Day: Resurgence film - - "The monstrous enemy is a hive mind that can be killed at once by slaying the queen." I'm a bit disappointed by that reveal. It's too easy and clearly reveals the method of conclusion for this story."
    [/ol]I get it. I get that there's only so many ways you can defeat an overwhelming force and the 'Dracula achilles heel' is one of the most sensible ways to solve that. And I was able to reconcile with that conclusion. It was the obvious destination but in my mind, the method was more important than the act itself. Which leads me to the act itself. Arya killing the Night King completely obliterated the Jon Snow arc for me. This isn't about 'subverting expectations' (the sexy lingo of the last couple years for Hollywood thanks to SW: The Last Jedi), it's about paying off narrative arcs. The reason Brienne being knighted was so good was because it was an absolutely earned moment that cap-stoned her and Jamie's relationship perfectly.

    To put it frankly, Arya didn't earn that kill. Jon was out there thwarting the Night King as often as he could and actually died trying to do so. Melisandre made it abundantly clear that Jon Snow, and Beric, and herself were all brought back for a reason. Beric fulfilled his purpose of saving Arya and died. Melisandre fulfilled her purpose of giving Arya a pep talk and died. What is Jon Snow's purpose? Why is he still alive? Too kill Cersei? Arya is more than capable of killing anyone in the world at this point. To take back the iron throne? That seems like a shallow objective that runs contrary to everything he has been preaching and practicing. Fighting the dead and protecting the realm was his life's dedication (literally). And Arya gets that moment? Not my cup of tea.

    Quote:

    Very good post. I agree with almost everything you posted and so deleted them - I left only the things I'd like to discuss.

    First, the NK - that was certainly NOT a 10+ year build-up. The character doesn't even exist in the books and likely will not. It was a tool to "put a face" to the threat from "Winter" which would appeal to the show viewers. It was at best, a 3 year build-up (he wasn't part of the first experiences with the WW in seasons 1 and 2). That's important as I do not think the character really had any supporting narrative from the underlying story. HE wasn't the "big bad" - the forces of the night and of winter were the collective big bad.
    True, but the White Walkers do exist. Whether there's a Night King character or not is irrelevant to the fact that the White Walkers (which he is one of) is part of that build up and has been since Page 1 of the books and :01 of the TV series.
    Quote:

    You just can't really fight that in a 70 hour show.
    Agreed. Which I blame on HBO. No one forced this timeline on them. The fan support for this show is unlike anything I've ever seen. They could have used an endless amount of resources to make this show as long as it was necessary to convey whatever end they needed.
    Quote:

    GRRM avoided the singular "Sauron" bad guy for a reason. I think he wanted to avoid the kind of showdown you're complaining about. I have no idea how he will resolve the northern question in the books, but the fundamental arc where Jon will be resurrected; Jon will unite the North; Dany will defeat the slavers and get to Westeros; Dany will be convinced of the threat from Winter; Dany will bring her Dragons to Winterfell - I think will remain. That unity will have value that will play out in the books (hopefully), but to your point, it will not involve a singular kill. To me, that mean's Jon Snow has a different purpose to his story.
    Total agreement here. You nailed this.

    Quote:

    If you assume Jon has a broader purpose, having Arya take the shot actually makes a ton of sense. Her story has been one of focus on the past - insults by Sansa, not being included in the "boy stuff", the death of the baker's boy, the death of her father, death/suffering by her friends. She lived for revenge for things that happened in the past. Last season and this one have been about changing that perspective to realize the importance of moving forward, love and family - working together ("the pack survives"), appreciating our differences (Sansa), and the value of romantic love (Gendry). She didn't kill the NK because of revenge - she killed him because she could. Because she was the best trained and best skilled to do it.
    Me and you have different takes on this. I took arya's story as the 'Jon Snow' for the human trials of the story. Arya's journey was revenge for sure, but it was also for justice. Justice against those who wronged against House Stark. Jon was the representative for humanity against the greater threat. They're both heroes but 'designed' to fight different opponents imo. Is Arya 'worthy' of killing the Night King? It's debatable...but it's not a debate about Jon.

    Quote:

    My belief is that Jon IS "The song of Ice and Fire" (Ice is Starks and Fire is Targs). His story starts as a pawn in the Game of Thrones and ends with the Dream of Spring. The end of the book series is NOT the Winds of Winter. My assumption is the basic story told through last season and the first three episodes of this one is that book. These last three episodes will cover the Dream of Spring. Minus, of course, GRRM wrapping up all the dumb tangents which the show just ignored. I do not think that story is just killing Cercei (although I do think that will happen). I think it's actually breaking the wheel - creating a new world (a Spring) where you don't have an Iron Throne. Jon/Aegon is the one who does that not Dany.

    At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion and we just disagree. The Song of Ice and Fire had a literal meaning (Night king who was literally made of ice vs fire breathing dragons) and a metaphorical one (being Jon Snow). I believe both are at the heart of the story and it's not a matter of 'prioritizing' one over the other.
    cbr
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    C@LAg said:

    No one going to comment on the 30 seconds of silent monologuing by the Night King in front of Bran, conveniently allowing time for Arya to magically teleport in and kill him? If he had just walked up to Bran and taken his shot.....

    Classic villain trope.
    dude he waited like 10000 years, he'd kicked their ass, you wont give him 30 seconds to gloat? i mean, its not like the dude had a lot of people giving him **** the last few millenia to make him cautious and gun shy.
    wannaggie
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    annie88 said:

    aggietony2010 said:

    wangus12 said:

    Such an awesome episode, but I just really don't like it being Arya that kills the NK. It always felt like it was Jon v. the NK and in the end Jon was pretty much a non-factor in the episode


    It does make Arya's seemingly pointless 2 seasons in Bravos actually mean something at least.
    Thought the same thing. I really found that whole part of her story then very boring.
    It's a medium-translation problem. That kind of slow psychological character development is actually very pleasurable in a book where your mind is directly interpreting verbal concepts and the narrator can freely describe emotions and thoughts. But in a visual medium where the brain is just observing motion and light, there's no non-hokey way to make that interesting. That's why we have 19,342 movies and TV shows with the "Rocky" cliche training-montage sequence -- in 30 seconds someone gains the kind of skill that you only gain in real life via years of tedious repetition.
    Kill Switch
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    reb, said:





    Federale01
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    Does Arya make it past the dragon pulling rear security for the NK if Jon isn't in front of it drawing its attention? Not the stuff of legends, but still vital.
    PeekingDuck
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    I enjoyed the show. I thought it was generally too dark. It had some stupid stuff and some great stuff. The wight wave shot was great. Arya killing the NK was stone cold. Would watch again.
    M.C. Swag
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    Federale01 said:

    Does Arya make it past the dragon pulling rear security for the NK if Jon isn't in front of it drawing its attention? Not the stuff of legends, but still vital.
    I literally have no idea because I didn't have a clue as to how/where Arya was in relation to Jon the Dragon or the weirwood tree. The entire battle location was a jumbled mess.
    ScottishFire
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    I get the disappointment regarding so many characters surving, but I would personally rather see huge characters die fighting for the Iron Throne than against the Army of the Dead.I want to see Jaime continue to grow a conscience and die fighting for the Targaryens. And I would be devastated to not get the Clegane Bowl.

    For all of you that think this show will have a happy ending because of Episode 3, go read/watch some of the cast reactions after finishing the script. I don't think many of them will survive, and it's going to get worse.
    Furlock Bones
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    ScottishFire said:

    I get the disappointment regarding so many characters surving, but I would personally rather see huge characters die fighting for the Iron Throne than against the Army of the Dead.I want to see Jaime continue to grow a conscience and die fighting for the Targaryens. And I would be devastated to not get the Clegane Bowl.

    For all of you that think this show will have a happy ending because of Episode 3, go read/watch some of the cast reactions after finishing the script. I don't think many of them will survive, and it's going to get worse.
    i want the Clegane bowl too. i think Jamie needs to confront Cersei again. but, Brienne or Pod or both should have died. Brienne's story culminated with the knighting. it makes sense for her to go down saving someone else.

    Grey Worm surviving the front of the phalanx has no plausibility. same for Jorah surviving the charge. if they needed him later to save, Daenarys, they should not have had him ride into the dark.
    wannaggie
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    wangus12 said:

    boboguitar said:

    I refuse to believe this is the end of the white walkers.

    Just no way arya is azor ahai.
    She wasn't. Just shows that Azor Ahai was a false prophecy.
    Matrix Oracle approach:

    The Oracle tells you what you need to hear in order to fulfill your role.
    wangus12
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    The only thing Jon Snow is ever going to be remembered for is bending the knee to Dany.
    cbr
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    i dont get anyone disappointed because Arya killed the NK.

    It was ALWAYS going to be her, or some unlikely hero.

    Danaris thought she was destined to do it... she's not really very bright. You could see it in her eyes. When he smiled up at her and her dragon she knew she was ****ed.

    Jon thought it was him. He figured out that killing the NK would drop the whole army, and he planned on doing it himself. he's not real smart either. Really, the 10000 year old magic dude with the dead dragon was 90% likely to beat Snow and his live dragon and special sword in a straight up fight anyway, but the NK wasn't even going to give him that chance. The NK eliminated those two threats by his tactics.

    he knew men could never defeat his horde. At the end, NK figured he'd beaten the armies, beaten the dragons, beaten the king of the north and queen of the south, and had won.

    The only real hope there ever was was to trap/sneak up on the dude, and arya was just the one to do that.

    Icecream_Ag
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    S
    M.C. Swag said:

    Federale01 said:

    Does Arya make it past the dragon pulling rear security for the NK if Jon isn't in front of it drawing its attention? Not the stuff of legends, but still vital.
    I literally have no idea because I didn't have a clue as to how/where Arya was in relation to Jon the Dragon or the weirwood tree. The entire battle location was a jumbled mess.
    I've did a quick search and found 3 different overheads of winterfell and all 3 are different. I don't know where anyone is
    Cromagnum
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    WelchAg said:

    Its weird, but I wanted someone really meaningful to die. I wanted to experience that crushing gut punch. Those raw emotions have made this show so successful.


    You felt nothing for Theon, nor especially, for Jorah?
    Render
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    Great episode. My only complaint was that the living didn't do basic defensive strategy. Hell, even orcs know what to do against a frontal charge!

    Icecream_Ag
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    wangus12 said:

    The only thing Jon Snow is ever going to be remembered for is bending the knee to Dany.
    and cave sex
    OldShadeOfBlue
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    Eliminatus said:

    Such a let down. Go ahead and dogpile for being a naysayer.

    They did exactly what I feared. They rushed this entire story arc. THE existential threat to all mankind in this universe and literally led up to from the very first scene of season one...just done and wrapped up as a throwaway side story. This whole thing felt so cheap. This was not some beautiful moment of cinematography and story writing of the single blade thrust ending the world threat. It was lazy and I am positive they just wanted to wrap this up as quickly as possible and move on as they ran out of time.

    So many throw away moments.

    Dothraki? Let's write them out in 4 minutes.

    NK origins, motivations, entire point of even being in the show....nah.

    This entire story arc was completely pointless to me. Even worse than the time they wasted on Dorn.

    Dang. Super disappointed.
    It honestly just sounds like you weren't paying attention. They literally showed the Night King origin in season 6. They literally told you one episode ago what his motivation was. And they literally just showed you the biggest blood bath in the history of Westeros and the threat to the world that the army of the dead was. They spent 6 seasons developing the story of an assassin capable of killing the most difficult entity to kill in the world. They spent 7 seasons organizing an army just to fight this one battle. How you can call that a "pointless arc" is dumbfounding to me.
    Agnzona
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    C@LAg said:

    So Bran is pointless now, and his plot armor is gone, right?

    Him being the "memory of man" is irrelevant.

    The prior 3ER did nothing to educate man. And now there is no need to know man's history as the only history points that were useful were those tied to the Night King and Littlefinger.

    I look forward to him doing his part and serving as a mobile bomb delivery system.


    Load him up with Wildfire and roll him down a hill.
    "It's what I do...I drink and I know things."
    Furlock Bones
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    Agnzona said:

    C@LAg said:

    So Bran is pointless now, and his plot armor is gone, right?

    Him being the "memory of man" is irrelevant.

    The prior 3ER did nothing to educate man. And now there is no need to know man's history as the only history points that were useful were those tied to the Night King and Littlefinger.

    I look forward to him doing his part and serving as a mobile bomb delivery system.


    Load him up with Wildfire and roll him down a hill.
    10/10 would watch.
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