He's no Jamie with 2 hands, but yes. It's safe to say there aren't many others who the writers would have defeat him in a fight.C@LAg said:is he really? on the TV show?Trident 88 said:Quote:
but he's a top notch swordsman.
****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******
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Last: 1 yr ago by Prosperdick
From the humor thread.
trueaggie2782 said:
Season 08 - Episode 03
Spoilers without context
Sine poena nulla lex.
Played the giantgigemJTH12 said:
Remember last week when someone found that guy with high billing on the IMDB? The long lanky skinny guy? Did he show up last night? If he did he didn't stand out.
Agree with all of this, just wishing we had it fleshed out a bit more on screen. Just not enough time.G Martin 87 said:Mel has consistently misinterpreted signs and events from the beginning. It's one of her defining characteristics. She makes mistakes. As the story has progressed, it's evident that she comes to regret her errors profoundly. After finally getting it right, she chooses to end it and pay for what's she done herself.bangobango said:Ranger222 said:
Can we talk a little about Melisandre in terms of her role in this entire series? I'm fine with everything she did last night. Lit some swords, lit some wood, told Arya what her true purpose was. Ok great, no problems here.
I'm just not satisfied with her ending and really her meaning. So her destiny was to strike out the terror of the night and bring light -- accomplished. But why then, if this was her real purpose, was she messing around with Stannis for so long and his pursuit of the Iron Throne? She just realized after she left Winterfell what her true purpose is and just been hanging out?
We can say that her line to Arya about stamping out "blue eyes" and the call back to season 4 (?) was "great writing", but when she first found Arya with Gendry, she cared little about her if she knew then that Arya would ultimately kill the NK and that was Melisandre's true mission in the assist. She still cared more about Gendry then! I think it was more of the writers going back and using something of little consequence back in season 4 to play it up here because it was convenient. "Blue eyes" was not even emphasized in Melisandre's quote in season 4.
And this also plays into what the 'Lord of Light' wants with Jon and his true purpose....she says that Beric has served his purpose and now will die once the LoL is finished with him. Well....the NK is defeated. What is Jon's purpose now with the LoL? Here is a bigger question -- once that task is completed, is Jon just gonna die as he was brought back to serve one role?
They retconned that quote to try to make it seem like they didn't pull this out of their asses. It was just last season Melisandre told Dany to send for Jon bc she and him were the Pwip.
Quote:Quote:
Am I over analyzing unnecessarily or did that affect the otherwise masterfully written and shot episode?
I think you're somewhat overanalyzing it. The writers said that the Dothraki's only real skill in combat is riding in a horde and overrunning the enemy, not as a trained cavalry force that can understand flanking tactics. Overall, it seemed like everyone at Winterfell assumed they were all going to die anyway and the thought was to try and use their forces in waves or levels of defense to slow down the advance. Level 1 being the Dothraki, 2 being the unsullied, 3 being the fire trench and lastly manning the castle walls. Holding the undead off as long as possible until the Night King came for Bran was the whole purpose of their army; everyone at Winterfell was essentially fodder.
Ok, thanks.
Decisions like that where entire groups are wasted or throw their lives away pointlessly just pull me out of the moment. Luckily, the rest of the episode was engaging enough to overcome that.
Right. The best critique of the overall plan I've read is Champ's. A better strategy would seem to have been to keep everyone inside Winterfell and kill as many wights in the field with catapults, archers, burning trenches, and dragon fire. Battling the dead outside the walls just gave the NK the ability to replenish his army from the North's dead. But then again, the point was to lure the NK out and kill him specifically. A siege doesn't accomplish that.Belton Ag said:Quote:
Am I over analyzing unnecessarily or did that affect the otherwise masterfully written and shot episode?
I think you're somewhat overanalyzing it. The writers said that the Dothraki's only real skill in combat is riding in a horde and overrunning the enemy, not as a trained cavalry force that can understand flanking tactics. Overall, it seemed like everyone at Winterfell assumed they were all going to die anyway and the thought was to try and use their forces in waves or levels of defense to slow down the advance. Level 1 being the Dothraki, 2 being the unsullied, 3 being the fire trench and lastly manning the castle walls. Holding the undead off as long as possible until the Night King came for Bran was the whole purpose of their army; everyone at Winterfell was essentially fodder.
No. I'm with you.Quote:
The thing that really bugged me last night however were the battlefield tactics.
Yeah sure it's a show and I may be getting to far into the details but I'm wondering if anyone else felt the same way.
Oil. Lots, and lots, and lots of oil. Needed about a dozen concentric fire moats. Not enough time. Let the hordes advance on the castle walls. Draw them in and let them form up at the base, and as was done in Feudal Europe, saturate them and light it up. Turn the outside of the castle walls into an inferno while you rain down arrows and catapult attacks on those advancing. Use your own two dragons against the NK and advancing groups.
Nobody cares. Work Harder
I get what you are saying but I've always kind of had a little different perspective in that prior to GOT I had never read any fantasy fiction in my life, other thank some Tolkien (which I admit I am not a fan of). I only read the books because I watched S1 on HBO and really liked it. So for me, the characters, the families, the politics, the dialogue, have always been the draw, moreso that the "epic fantasy" aspect of it.
G Martin 87 said:Right. The best critique of the overall plan I've read is Champ's. A better strategy would seem to have been to keep everyone inside Winterfell and kill as many wights in the field with catapults, archers, burning trenches, and dragon fire. Battling the dead outside the walls just gave the NK the ability to replenish his army from the North's dead. But then again, the point was to lure the NK out and kill him specifically. A siege doesn't accomplish that.Belton Ag said:Quote:
Am I over analyzing unnecessarily or did that affect the otherwise masterfully written and shot episode?
I think you're somewhat overanalyzing it. The writers said that the Dothraki's only real skill in combat is riding in a horde and overrunning the enemy, not as a trained cavalry force that can understand flanking tactics. Overall, it seemed like everyone at Winterfell assumed they were all going to die anyway and the thought was to try and use their forces in waves or levels of defense to slow down the advance. Level 1 being the Dothraki, 2 being the unsullied, 3 being the fire trench and lastly manning the castle walls. Holding the undead off as long as possible until the Night King came for Bran was the whole purpose of their army; everyone at Winterfell was essentially fodder.
The only point was to instill fear and doubt about how the battle was about to go. Take the most bamf cavalry unit out there and show them getting wrecked in seconds.
It was fleshed out on screen over multiple seasons. Davos even said as much last season.Ranger222 said:Agree with all of this, just wishing we had it fleshed out a bit more on screen. Just not enough time.G Martin 87 said:Mel has consistently misinterpreted signs and events from the beginning. It's one of her defining characteristics. She makes mistakes. As the story has progressed, it's evident that she comes to regret her errors profoundly. After finally getting it right, she chooses to end it and pay for what's she done herself.bangobango said:Ranger222 said:
Can we talk a little about Melisandre in terms of her role in this entire series? I'm fine with everything she did last night. Lit some swords, lit some wood, told Arya what her true purpose was. Ok great, no problems here.
I'm just not satisfied with her ending and really her meaning. So her destiny was to strike out the terror of the night and bring light -- accomplished. But why then, if this was her real purpose, was she messing around with Stannis for so long and his pursuit of the Iron Throne? She just realized after she left Winterfell what her true purpose is and just been hanging out?
We can say that her line to Arya about stamping out "blue eyes" and the call back to season 4 (?) was "great writing", but when she first found Arya with Gendry, she cared little about her if she knew then that Arya would ultimately kill the NK and that was Melisandre's true mission in the assist. She still cared more about Gendry then! I think it was more of the writers going back and using something of little consequence back in season 4 to play it up here because it was convenient. "Blue eyes" was not even emphasized in Melisandre's quote in season 4.
And this also plays into what the 'Lord of Light' wants with Jon and his true purpose....she says that Beric has served his purpose and now will die once the LoL is finished with him. Well....the NK is defeated. What is Jon's purpose now with the LoL? Here is a bigger question -- once that task is completed, is Jon just gonna die as he was brought back to serve one role?
They retconned that quote to try to make it seem like they didn't pull this out of their asses. It was just last season Melisandre told Dany to send for Jon bc she and him were the Pwip.
And see, I am the opposite because I read almost exclusively fantasy fiction.Urban Ag said:
I get what you are saying but I've always kind of had a little different perspective in that prior to GOT I had never read any fantasy fiction in my life, other thank some Tolkien (which I admit I am not a fan of). I only read the books because I watched S1 on HBO and really liked it. So for me, the characters, the families, the politics, the dialogue, have always been the draw, moreso that the "epic fantasy" aspect of it.
Like I said, I think there are a lot of people who like the War of the Roses aspect more than the Lord of the Rings aspect. I think the latter is disappointed while the former is happy and ready to move on to Kingslanding.
Going to disagree with that. We get no indication that she realizers Arya is the one prior to her arriving at Winterfell last night. Prior to that she was all about Jon. That's the missing link we are never shown, just told as of last night.
Just some random thoughts after sleeping on it. Sorry if anything seems redundant, trying to inject some different thoughts. I did read the last like 20 pages:
I was tense the whole episode. Haven't had an experience like that since about an hour stretch of the dark knight or Hardhome.
Loved the Arya kill. Emerging from the mist and the drop swap. Inject that **** into my veins. Don't close your eyes when making a precision stab though (personal nitpick).
Really wish they would have (selfishly and for the sake of the story) fleshed this out over a few more seasons. The lack of GRRM's writing as guidance plus the rushed plot is such a contrast from the earlier seasons. Or ditch the two filler episodes preceding. Budgets and stuff.
Pause the episode when the dragons were fighting above the blizzard. What a beautiful shot, dragon fighting logistics aside.
Melisandre showing up and doing the lord's work - nice. Her discontinuity with who is the chosen one or whatever kinda sucked. Her whole purpose was defeating the night - she literally lets herself die afterwards so we know that's all she cares about. Her stanning Stannis, then Jon, then Arya seemed weird.
Those siege defense tactics, yikes. I give tons of leeway for entertainment when it comes to defying common sense logic but that was bad. The opposition is bolstered when one of ours falls so let's send our cavalry in blind. Saw a post/tweet that they had to find a way to kill all the brown people in the first 20 minutes... lol.
Arya doing her best Solid Snake impression in the library seemed out of place.
The zombie wall aesthetic was terrifyingly awesome. First during the Dothraki charge and then when the dead rushed.
The completion of Theon's arc was awesome. What a really well written character. His charge at the end made me eye roll though. I understand what it's supposed to represent but throw in a couple of euro steps or something.
Speaking of, Lyanna Mormont is a badass. Her death made me eyeroll too though.
When the crypts came alive I was almost expecting a Sean Bean cameo until I remembered he lost his noggin.
LOTS of plot armor being passed around in this episode. Doesn't really make sense in this show for some of those people surviving. Love Samwell but there were like 5 times he needed to bite it. Grey Worm in the thick of it, Jorah surviving the initial charge, Brienne pinned against the wall. It betrays the build up a bit. But Podrick absolutely needed to survive. We riot if Pod dies.
Valyrian steel: named swords with cool backstories and mythos. A central part of Hardhome (arguably) is the revelation of how Valyrian steel combats WW. Planting that seed and then never really making it a part of this conflict beyond Catspaw seemed odd.
The stakes with the NK seemed so much higher than with Cersei. Interested to see how they pay that off.
I was tense the whole episode. Haven't had an experience like that since about an hour stretch of the dark knight or Hardhome.
Loved the Arya kill. Emerging from the mist and the drop swap. Inject that **** into my veins. Don't close your eyes when making a precision stab though (personal nitpick).
Really wish they would have (selfishly and for the sake of the story) fleshed this out over a few more seasons. The lack of GRRM's writing as guidance plus the rushed plot is such a contrast from the earlier seasons. Or ditch the two filler episodes preceding. Budgets and stuff.
Pause the episode when the dragons were fighting above the blizzard. What a beautiful shot, dragon fighting logistics aside.
Melisandre showing up and doing the lord's work - nice. Her discontinuity with who is the chosen one or whatever kinda sucked. Her whole purpose was defeating the night - she literally lets herself die afterwards so we know that's all she cares about. Her stanning Stannis, then Jon, then Arya seemed weird.
Those siege defense tactics, yikes. I give tons of leeway for entertainment when it comes to defying common sense logic but that was bad. The opposition is bolstered when one of ours falls so let's send our cavalry in blind. Saw a post/tweet that they had to find a way to kill all the brown people in the first 20 minutes... lol.
Arya doing her best Solid Snake impression in the library seemed out of place.
The zombie wall aesthetic was terrifyingly awesome. First during the Dothraki charge and then when the dead rushed.
The completion of Theon's arc was awesome. What a really well written character. His charge at the end made me eye roll though. I understand what it's supposed to represent but throw in a couple of euro steps or something.
Speaking of, Lyanna Mormont is a badass. Her death made me eyeroll too though.
When the crypts came alive I was almost expecting a Sean Bean cameo until I remembered he lost his noggin.
LOTS of plot armor being passed around in this episode. Doesn't really make sense in this show for some of those people surviving. Love Samwell but there were like 5 times he needed to bite it. Grey Worm in the thick of it, Jorah surviving the initial charge, Brienne pinned against the wall. It betrays the build up a bit. But Podrick absolutely needed to survive. We riot if Pod dies.
Valyrian steel: named swords with cool backstories and mythos. A central part of Hardhome (arguably) is the revelation of how Valyrian steel combats WW. Planting that seed and then never really making it a part of this conflict beyond Catspaw seemed odd.
The stakes with the NK seemed so much higher than with Cersei. Interested to see how they pay that off.
Brock Sampson said:
Theon went out like a bad ass
So did Lyanna
Not With a Bang, But a Whimper (***TL;DR warning***)
The culmination of 10+ years of plot development and intrigue finally came to a head last night. The battle for the long night. The Night King and his army of death finally marched on Westeros...and it was over with the stroke of a single stab wound.
I won't lie, the second the credits rolled on last night's episode I felt completely disappointed. I understand most people liked it and at the end of the day, we're all just fans of the show discussing our opinions of what should/would/will happen. My opinion is that this was not a good conclusion to the White Walker conflict. And instead of just 'fly by ****ting' on the episode, here's the reasons for my disappointment:
The good:
The not so good:
[ol]
The battle sequence(s): Fan Service Moments (or lack thereof): Sam The Night King's demise
[ol]
To put it frankly, Arya didn't earn that kill. Jon was out there thwarting the Night King as often as he could and actually died trying to do so. Melisandre made it abundantly clear that Jon Snow, and Beric, and herself were all brought back for a reason. Beric fulfilled his purpose of saving Arya and died. Melisandre fulfilled her purpose of giving Arya a pep talk and died. What is Jon Snow's purpose? Why is he still alive? Too kill Cersei? Arya is more than capable of killing anyone in the world at this point. To take back the iron throne? That seems like a shallow objective that runs contrary to everything he has been preaching and practicing. Fighting the dead and protecting the realm was his life's dedication (literally). And Arya gets that moment? Not my cup of tea.
The culmination of 10+ years of plot development and intrigue finally came to a head last night. The battle for the long night. The Night King and his army of death finally marched on Westeros...and it was over with the stroke of a single stab wound.
I won't lie, the second the credits rolled on last night's episode I felt completely disappointed. I understand most people liked it and at the end of the day, we're all just fans of the show discussing our opinions of what should/would/will happen. My opinion is that this was not a good conclusion to the White Walker conflict. And instead of just 'fly by ****ting' on the episode, here's the reasons for my disappointment:
The good:
- Dothraki sword fire deal was dope.
- Bad strategy aside, I liked the Dothraki torches being slowly extinguished. It definitely conveyed a sense of impending doom.
- The suspense in the first 15-20 min was pretty well done. Got my blood up for sure.
The not so good:
[ol]
- They were often incomprehensible (and I'm not just talking about my tv screen being too dark). There were literally dozens of moments where I wasn't sure who was being highlighted in a fight scene or what exactly was even happening. I thought Sam and Greyworm died about 3 times each. The way the battle was filmed made it impossible to actually follow the action. Outside of Arya and her staff, we got very very little clear choreography which was disappointing. But not a huge deal.
- Coming into this episode we were told that Sapochnik (the Director for this episode of GoT) drew inspiration from Lord of the Ring's The Two Towers battle for Helm's Deep. One of the best aspects of the Helm's Deep battle was the way Peter Jackson was able to convey location. It was never confusing to the viewer where/or how a character was fighting. Establishing the grounds for the action was a critical element of success to that battle scene and I feel like Sapochnik failed in that sense. It was hard for me to discern how characters could be in the midst of a zombie horde one second and then appear in a relatively empty locale the next (i.e. Arya/The Hound teleporting from outside an overrun courtyard to the library or even worse, Tyrion and Sansa being depicted as the sole survivors in the crypt to then all of a sudden everyone else appears fine in their own cubby hole of safety).
- I know that pandering to the audience can oftentimes be eye-rolling, but I feel like this episode really failed to deliver on some easy wins. We didn't see a single interaction with the main characters encountering a wight they personally knew (we saw Edd/Lyanna/etc wake up and that was it). I think it would have been pretty crazy to see Arya or Theon confronted with Wight Hodor. Or for Jon to kill Wight Dolorous Edd. Something like that would be an impactful moment. Certainly more worthy of screen time than Arya trying to avoid a couple zombie in a library.
- We didn't see Ghost do ANYTHING (again).
- We didn't see Bran, a character that can literally control any living creature, warg into a dragon or wolf or bear and participate in the fight.
- We didn't see the White Walkers fight a single character with a valyrian sword (or literally anyone at all).
- I could go on, but I feel like the fact that we didn't get any of those was some of the biggest whiffs.
- I HATE what they did to Sam this episode. His entire character arc was from that of a sniveling, whimpering, coward to someone who would face a gang of rapers, monsters, or even incurable disease to save someone. He was never going to be a warrior, but he proved himself a HERO already. Where was that Sam?! The one we saw cowering constantly was not the Sam the show had been building the past 7 years. That was an inexcusable regression.
- I've already mentioned this but it bears repeating: The 'winter is coming' motif is a direct link to the White Walkers (winter = death = WW). The prince who was promised prophecy (which was the entire plot arc for Dany and Jon) was a consistent theme as well. The PWWP isn't some prophesized hero sent to overthrow 1 crazy queen. They were meant to FIGHT BACK THE NIGHT. The NK was an immortal who could raise the dead, control the dead, had a zombie dragon, and to some varying degree, control the weather. That man was just defeated. How can we as an audience feel any sort of suspense about the conflict with Cersei in comparison to what they just defeated? I mean hell, Arya could literally sneak through a pack of zombies to stab the NK...she could assassinate Cersei in her sleep. Boom. game over. My point is; the NK literally and thematically was the big bad. He was ICE. He was WINTER. He was DEATH. They just beat that. Now I'm supposed to buy that Cersei is the last challenge? She's the reason Jon was resurrected amongst smoke and ash? Suffice to say, the sequence of events (killing the Nk then killing Cersei) is a problem for me.
[ol]
- Since the moment they showed that killing the White Walker also kills those he turned, it was obvious how this was going to end. And even then I had my issues with that (8/21/2017):Quote:
"The biggest reveal of this episode: Killing a White Walker also kills the Wights who follow him. This is a fairly common trope amongst fantasy (science) fiction. From Ender's Game to Lord of the Rings to even the repulsive Independence Day: Resurgence film - - "The monstrous enemy is a hive mind that can be killed at once by slaying the queen." I'm a bit disappointed by that reveal. It's too easy and clearly reveals the method of conclusion for this story."
To put it frankly, Arya didn't earn that kill. Jon was out there thwarting the Night King as often as he could and actually died trying to do so. Melisandre made it abundantly clear that Jon Snow, and Beric, and herself were all brought back for a reason. Beric fulfilled his purpose of saving Arya and died. Melisandre fulfilled her purpose of giving Arya a pep talk and died. What is Jon Snow's purpose? Why is he still alive? Too kill Cersei? Arya is more than capable of killing anyone in the world at this point. To take back the iron throne? That seems like a shallow objective that runs contrary to everything he has been preaching and practicing. Fighting the dead and protecting the realm was his life's dedication (literally). And Arya gets that moment? Not my cup of tea.
This has always been a multi-layered, complex story with lots of moving parts and intersecting character arcs across a backdrop of both medieval court politics and high-fantasy. If all you're interested in is one or the other, you're missing out on half of the story.bangobango said:Like I said, if the Iron throne is what drew you into this story, then that probably works great for you. i think there are more than a few of us, however, that were much more interested int he mystical aspects of this story than the political intrigue. Putting Jon in the middle of that is going to cheapen the hell out of his character, to me.G Martin 87 said:There's no "maybe" about it. Jon's story arc has not been "completely invalidated." It remains unresolved. He is the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne, not Dany.bangobango said:But they do nothing to show how she finally figures out it is Arya.G Martin 87 said:Mel has consistently misinterpreted signs and events from the beginning. It's one of her defining characteristics. She makes mistakes. As the story has progressed, it's evident that she comes to regret her errors profoundly. After finally getting it right, she chooses to end it and pay for what's she done herself.bangobango said:Ranger222 said:
Can we talk a little about Melisandre in terms of her role in this entire series? I'm fine with everything she did last night. Lit some swords, lit some wood, told Arya what her true purpose was. Ok great, no problems here.
I'm just not satisfied with her ending and really her meaning. So her destiny was to strike out the terror of the night and bring light -- accomplished. But why then, if this was her real purpose, was she messing around with Stannis for so long and his pursuit of the Iron Throne? She just realized after she left Winterfell what her true purpose is and just been hanging out?
We can say that her line to Arya about stamping out "blue eyes" and the call back to season 4 (?) was "great writing", but when she first found Arya with Gendry, she cared little about her if she knew then that Arya would ultimately kill the NK and that was Melisandre's true mission in the assist. She still cared more about Gendry then! I think it was more of the writers going back and using something of little consequence back in season 4 to play it up here because it was convenient. "Blue eyes" was not even emphasized in Melisandre's quote in season 4.
And this also plays into what the 'Lord of Light' wants with Jon and his true purpose....she says that Beric has served his purpose and now will die once the LoL is finished with him. Well....the NK is defeated. What is Jon's purpose now with the LoL? Here is a bigger question -- once that task is completed, is Jon just gonna die as he was brought back to serve one role?
They retconned that quote to try to make it seem like they didn't pull this out of their asses. It was just last season Melisandre told Dany to send for Jon bc she and him were the Pwip.
Look,l it doesn't work. I am not saying anybody is dumb or anything for liking it, but the way they went completely destroys all the build up about the prince who was promised, Jon's story arch, Rheagar and Lyanna's story, which led to Robert's Rebellion. It completely invalidates Ned protecting Jon's identity for all those years. It completely invalidates Jon being resurrected.
A lot of people came to this story from a fantasy fiction perspective, and if you were looking at it from that perspective then you probably saw the battle for the throne as less important as the battle against the dead. A big theme is that Jon forsakes any and all ambition for the more important battle, but then he never gets his moment to "shine" so to speak, and that is really disappointing for a lot of people who have gone through this story waiting for the pay-off for that character.
Maybe it comes in the next three episodes, but I really feel like the screenwriters lost their way on this when the source material ran out and are handling this just like any other show, which it was anything but like every other show for the first several seasons.
True. But don't get me wrong. There are a few nitpicky things with me that don't sit well. I just don't like when they go to all the trouble to introduce and idea or concept and then there is no follow through. They should not have dredged up more talk of "AA and the Prophecy" last season if it was a nothing burger. I hate nothing burgers.
And GRRM is the master chef of nothing burgers.
And GRRM is the master chef of nothing burgers.
Nope, prior to that she was all about Stannis. Then she was persuaded by Davos to resurrect Jon. If you go back and rewatch some of Mel's scenes since season 2, I think you'll see her arc more clearly.Ranger222 said:
Going to disagree with that. We get no indication that she realizers Arya is the one prior to her arriving at Winterfell last night. Prior to that she was all about Jon. That's the missing link we are never shown, just told as of last night.
my main problem is that when the wights are attacking the walls, they can run like ussain bolt but when they are surrounding jon snow, they move like me after eating a super monster at freebirds.
That's fair. They could have done more to make him a bad ass. However, that's not even the point of my post.C@LAg said:I am saying it is something that is said, not something that has really ben demonstrated.Trident 88 said:
He's no Jamie with 2 hands, but yes. It's safe to say there aren't many others who the writers would have defeat him in a fight.
Jon has proven himself at least good enough to take out a WW. Why have him screwing around with the dragon in the courtyard instead of having him rush in just as Theon was going down to take up the defense of Bran? Then, as I said, we could get to see some WWs go down the hard way instead of Arya simply hitting a walk off homer with no one around to witness it.
Not too hard for a Faceless Man to do. Obviously few on this thread know or understand how badass the Faceless Men apparently are. Arya killed the NK, after getting past a group of his WW and dealing with a number of his wights/zombies within the castle. Mel's comment about closing many blue eyes forever was touched on again, helping Arya - and the show watchers - understand what it truly meant.wangus12 said:Yeah but she ran by those WW (why the dude's hair moved maybe) and running on snow is loud as ****TX_AG_10 said:I originally had the same question. I think they set this part up in the library scene where she showed she wad definitely capable of sneaking around wights.213 Grove said:
How did arya get by the WW?
And THAT is how you set up a payoff.MonkeyKnifeFighter said:
Anyone else notice that Arya beat the NK using a move similar to how she bested Brienne?
Dagger hand pinned -> drop the dagger into the other hand.
"Who taught you how to do that?"
Jon has failed time and time again, but failing upwards.
Arya has been training the entire series.
Any idea what the state of Dany's and Jon's army? I'm assuming the dothraki and unsullied are pretty much gone and they only have the northerners left. It seems like they will have to recruit some other houses to join their side. Who is available?
My thoughts:
1. The show has gradually declined in terms of writing and plot ever since they ran out of book material and the show is a bit of a victim of its own success. A great example of this to me was the "Hodor" moment a couple seasons ago which is something that has been stated as set up by GRRM. The current writers just don't have the skills to build something like that on their own. They have monster budgets now and a huge following but now you have 4 casual fans to every 1 hardcore fan and they are going for a lot more easy payoffs instead of trying to develop complex plot twists. I don't necessarily blame them, they are trying to make money and get ratings as opposed to tell the best story.
2. I'm glad the Long Night is over and the WW story is done. If they had won at Winterfell it would have made 80% of the story meaningless and essentially turned the point of GOT into a Zombie movie. Lots of Zombie shows if that is what you want, GOT was far more complex just to have the Zombies come and kill everyone until there is a final battle where just a couple survive. BTW I think the Show really did a disservice by changing the Wights into crazy attack Zombies starting with Hardhomme. I thought they were much more interesting prior to that as more of a slow plodding mass that brought death rather than more of a classic Zombie feel of crazed skeletons that swarm people. It just took away from the realistic feel of the show while making it harder to follow and making fight scenes a lot less interesting and very inconsistent.
3. It would have been almost impossible not to have a great show with the actors, plot setup, and budget that they had. They did a pretty good job of making it meh though with the visuals and flow. Still some great stuff in there but overall not a great payoff and really no truly "major" characters went down. The closest 2 were Theon and Jorah and maybe Mel. No Starks, no Lannisters, no Dany, not even Grey Worm or Brienne (2 I thought would have made sense to go down heroically or better yet tragically). I mean how cool would it have been to see Brienne go down fighting a WW where she destroys him with her Valyrian steel sword and dies in the effort. I didn't get how at one moment it looked like the Dead had killed everyone and then the next there were all these people still alive. The flow just made no sense and they had lots of cheesy "ooh look it's a creepy Zombie dude!" closeups that really don't feel like what GOT is about imo. Watching the preview for next week it almost feels like 2 different shows.
4. The Show is clearly being dictated by fans now. They are afraid to kill off popular characters and are going for payoff scenes where "good guys" escape impossible odds to survive. It just makes it a lot more boring compared to the earlier seasons when you really felt like anyone could get killed at any time and the attitude of "if you think this has a happy ending then you haven't been paying attention" attitude. They need more bittersweet and realism. It's still great but damn it could be incredible.
1. The show has gradually declined in terms of writing and plot ever since they ran out of book material and the show is a bit of a victim of its own success. A great example of this to me was the "Hodor" moment a couple seasons ago which is something that has been stated as set up by GRRM. The current writers just don't have the skills to build something like that on their own. They have monster budgets now and a huge following but now you have 4 casual fans to every 1 hardcore fan and they are going for a lot more easy payoffs instead of trying to develop complex plot twists. I don't necessarily blame them, they are trying to make money and get ratings as opposed to tell the best story.
2. I'm glad the Long Night is over and the WW story is done. If they had won at Winterfell it would have made 80% of the story meaningless and essentially turned the point of GOT into a Zombie movie. Lots of Zombie shows if that is what you want, GOT was far more complex just to have the Zombies come and kill everyone until there is a final battle where just a couple survive. BTW I think the Show really did a disservice by changing the Wights into crazy attack Zombies starting with Hardhomme. I thought they were much more interesting prior to that as more of a slow plodding mass that brought death rather than more of a classic Zombie feel of crazed skeletons that swarm people. It just took away from the realistic feel of the show while making it harder to follow and making fight scenes a lot less interesting and very inconsistent.
3. It would have been almost impossible not to have a great show with the actors, plot setup, and budget that they had. They did a pretty good job of making it meh though with the visuals and flow. Still some great stuff in there but overall not a great payoff and really no truly "major" characters went down. The closest 2 were Theon and Jorah and maybe Mel. No Starks, no Lannisters, no Dany, not even Grey Worm or Brienne (2 I thought would have made sense to go down heroically or better yet tragically). I mean how cool would it have been to see Brienne go down fighting a WW where she destroys him with her Valyrian steel sword and dies in the effort. I didn't get how at one moment it looked like the Dead had killed everyone and then the next there were all these people still alive. The flow just made no sense and they had lots of cheesy "ooh look it's a creepy Zombie dude!" closeups that really don't feel like what GOT is about imo. Watching the preview for next week it almost feels like 2 different shows.
4. The Show is clearly being dictated by fans now. They are afraid to kill off popular characters and are going for payoff scenes where "good guys" escape impossible odds to survive. It just makes it a lot more boring compared to the earlier seasons when you really felt like anyone could get killed at any time and the attitude of "if you think this has a happy ending then you haven't been paying attention" attitude. They need more bittersweet and realism. It's still great but damn it could be incredible.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
Ronald Reagan
Ronald Reagan
The dragon was guarding the entrance to the godswood. Jon was trying to get there. But they decided stealth was the only way to get to him.
Cool article explaining the history of Arya's dagger. Helped me since it's been passed around a bit over the years.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/29/arts/television/arya-dagger-bran-night-king.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/29/arts/television/arya-dagger-bran-night-king.html
I think it was a momentum thing. The original wave built up their speed across the field, but the ones surrounding Jon just stood upMuckRaker96 said:
my main problem is that when the wights are attacking the walls, they can run like ussain bolt but when they are surrounding jon snow, they move like me after eating a super monster at freebirds.
Great post. The thing I most agree with is the Samwell thing. Horrible episode for him. He should have at least saved someone at the end. Maybe Sam Jr. He was a coward the whole episode. Horrible turn for his characters development the last 10 years.
Hopefully he gets some redemption v Cersei.
Hopefully he gets some redemption v Cersei.
Jon has to catch the NK before he kills everyone. There's no time to save Sam and he knows it by the look on his face.Quote:
5. jon leaving sam to die because, "meh, he's almost died a bunch today already, he'll be ok"
IMO it clicked for her when she was lighting the trenches and saw their blue eyes. At that point she realized aryas purpose in the battleG Martin 87 said:Nope, prior to that she was all about Stannis. Then she was persuaded by Davos to resurrect Jon. If you go back and rewatch some of Mel's scenes since season 2, I think you'll see her arc more clearly.Ranger222 said:
Going to disagree with that. We get no indication that she realizers Arya is the one prior to her arriving at Winterfell last night. Prior to that she was all about Jon. That's the missing link we are never shown, just told as of last night.
Oh also the White Walkers having zero fighting thing. How was there none!? That was dumb.
How about a fight with arya and her staff vs a white walker instead of the library stuff.
Granted, she was the only character who got a nice scene of totally whipping ass.
How about a fight with arya and her staff vs a white walker instead of the library stuff.
Granted, she was the only character who got a nice scene of totally whipping ass.
gigemJTH12 said:
Great post. The thing I most agree with is the Samwell thing. Horrible episode for him. He should have at least saved someone at the end. Maybe Sam Jr. He was a coward the whole episode. Horrible turn for his characters development the last 10 years.
Hopefully he gets some redemption v Cersei.
We openly laughed when he just ran off. That was also a perfect example of how annoying the battle scenes were at times that many have touched on. There's no 'fog of war' or 'hey battle is chaotic' when they go from zombies all around them everywhere trying to kill them, to then after one is killed you can just jog off right through them all and nobody even attempts to go after you. Poor Sam...neutered so hard in this episode
Mel's second sight was blurred to say the least. Perhaps Jon's purpose was to kill Bran later on? Perhaps it was just to buy Arya time. Who knows?Ranger222 said:
Can we talk a little about Melisandre in terms of her role in this entire series? I'm fine with everything she did last night. Lit some swords, lit some wood, told Arya what her true purpose was. Ok great, no problems here.
I'm just not satisfied with her ending and really her meaning. So her destiny was to strike out the terror of the night and bring light -- accomplished. But why then, if this was her real purpose, was she messing around with Stannis for so long and his pursuit of the Iron Throne? She just realized after she left Winterfell what her true purpose is and just been hanging out?
We can say that her line to Arya about stamping out "blue eyes" and the call back to season 4 (?) was "great writing", but when she first found Arya with Gendry, she cared little about her if she knew then that Arya would ultimately kill the NK and that was Melisandre's true mission in the assist. She still cared more about Gendry then! I think it was more of the writers going back and using something of little consequence back in season 4 to play it up here because it was convenient. "Blue eyes" was not even emphasized in Melisandre's quote in season 4.
And this also plays into what the 'Lord of Light' wants with Jon and his true purpose....she says that Beric has served his purpose and now will die once the LoL is finished with him. Well....the NK is defeated. What is Jon's purpose now with the LoL? Here is a bigger question -- once that task is completed, is Jon just gonna die as he was brought back to serve one role?
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