****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

C@LAg
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Truvada_for_prep said:

Red witch was the mvp why did she kill herself ?

I don't think she did - she held on long enough to see the ending - she was very very very old as her true self.


she was a tool. she allowed herself to die as her purpose was fulfilled.
Fenrir
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BTW, Alt Shift X thinking there is more to the NK should not be surprising. He has been a big time theorist on the NK and WWs. His recap of episode 2 even has a part about 13 minutes in where he talks about wanting more motivation for the NK.
Zombie Jon Snow
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WhoopN06 said:

The Daggers name is needle. Jon gave it to Arya.

No....no no no.

Needle is a small sword.

This is dagger.

Two different things completely.

Icecream_Ag
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S
Farmer1906 said:

Icecream_Ag said:

jtstanley4621 said:

Okay that's what I thought. And it's made of Valyrian steel. But do we know the name of the dagger, or where it actually came from?
littlefinger gave it to the assassin and he won it from tyrion. Where tyrion got it wasn't mentioned in the show.
Unless I am misremembering, I don't think that was ever Tyrion's. It was the lie Littlefinger told to get the Starks to war against the Lannisters.
I thought tyrion said he lost it in a bet to littlefinger when he was captured by the starks
Cromagnum
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All I know is when Bran turns into the Night King, we are all going to have Howland Reed to thank for saving the day.
C@LAg
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THIS IS MY RIFLE (needle)

THIS IS MY GUN (catspaw)
Zombie Jon Snow
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C@LAg said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Truvada_for_prep said:

Red witch was the mvp why did she kill herself ?

I don't think she did - she held on long enough to see the ending - she was very very very old as her true self.


she was a tool. she allowed herself to die as her purpose was fulfilled.

perhaps but.... she was very very old. i think she willed herself to live to see this transpire - maybe through magic. slight difference of perspective really. i think she was near death and held on - hell it might even be somewhat "Luke" like in that all the magic she did here was all she had left.
Federale01
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BowSowy said:

AustinAg2K said:

BowSowy said:

Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

I've now watched the episode twice, I figured out my biggest issue with it. I'll preface this with stating that I really enjoyed the episode. I have no issues with the glaring strategical issues on the side of the living; however, I cannot get past the continuous continuity errors.

They are just obnoxiously evident on repeat viewing. Characters who were previously surrounded on all sides, suddenly surrounded on one side, or not surrounded at all anymore. Greyjoys being immediately overrun, then suddenly not. The continuity errors were just nonstop every 2-3 minutes for about a 30-40 minute stretch. If you don't believe me, have a rewatch. These are issues that could easily have been fixed, it's really just sloppy filmmaking.
The biggest one for me, and the one that pissed me off, was how Grey Worm was at the front of the Unsullied army when the wave of wights hit then a few minutes later, he's destroying the moat bridge behind the Unsullied army.
I feel like it really makes Grey Worm seem dishonorable. He basically let all the other Unsullied die, while he's like, "I'm out."
Completely agree, although I guess it was expected after his scene with Missandei last week. Like I said earlier, he should've died on the battlefield
I have to disagree with this. He was the leader of the unsullied. In battle, the leader goes where he is most needed. He had to fall back to coordinate protecting the retreat. And when he had to, he made the tough call to abandon half his men to help save others. He did the right thing, IMHO.
Farmer1906
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Icecream_Ag said:

Farmer1906 said:

Icecream_Ag said:

jtstanley4621 said:

Okay that's what I thought. And it's made of Valyrian steel. But do we know the name of the dagger, or where it actually came from?
littlefinger gave it to the assassin and he won it from tyrion. Where tyrion got it wasn't mentioned in the show.
Unless I am misremembering, I don't think that was ever Tyrion's. It was the lie Littlefinger told to get the Starks to war against the Lannisters.
I thought tyrion said he lost it in a bet to littlefinger when he was captured by the starks
I'm pretty sure he denies it. This is Littlefinger causing chaos.
Trident 88
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213 Grove said:

I personally thought it would have been sick to see Jon make it to Bran, the night king sends his commanders to strike down Jon and Jon started slaying through them and you saw scenes of the wights start to fall as Jon kills the ones who turned them.

Then you can have arya come in and save the day as the night king battles Jon and kicks him aside or something...

The WW didn't have to be in the front line but a little dissapointing that once the night king got to the weirwood it ended so quick
This is the way it should have happened. Jon is clearly in over his head when it comes to battle strategy, but he's a top notch swordsman.

Have Jon make it to Bran and take out at least a couple of WWs. Then, the NK gets the upper hand right before Arya drops down from the tree in ninja form to kill him.

As an added bonus, Jon gets to witness first-hand that Arya has transformed into a bad ass.
tk for tu juan
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bangobango
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

C@LAg said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Truvada_for_prep said:

Red witch was the mvp why did she kill herself ?

I don't think she did - she held on long enough to see the ending - she was very very very old as her true self.


she was a tool. she allowed herself to die as her purpose was fulfilled.

perhaps but.... she was very very old. i think she willed herself to live to see this transpire - maybe through magic. slight difference of perspective really. i think she was near death and held on - hell it might even be somewhat "Luke" like in that all the magic she did here was all she had left.

He choker had some type of magic that kept her young. Taking the choker off causes her to progressively revert back to her actual age. She kept the choker off for so long that she aged all the way down to just a skeleton it looked like.
Mantis Toboggan MD
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Red Woman: Dothraki can haz fire sword
Everyone else: wtf what about the rest of us?
Zombie Jon Snow
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WhoopN06 said:

The Daggers name is needle. Jon gave it to Arya.


two DIfFERENT weapons


Here is where jon gives Arya needle - the small sword. In S1





Here is where Bran gives Arya the dagger - in S7



C@LAg
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Trident 88 said:

Quote:

but he's a top notch swordsman.



is he really? on the TV show?
Truvada_for_prep
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Why did Theon have to die right before nk was killed .?
C@LAg
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tk for tu juan said:


I call fake. You think they use Phillips head screws in Westeros?
Bunk Moreland
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Cromagnum said:

I'm hoping that their are some legit oh **** moments in the next 3 episodes that reverse some of our current apprehensions.

I think it'll largely be overdone send-offs and more scenes that feel like they were written specifically so watch parties could all clap. Nothing about these last 3 eps have felt like old school GoT where anything could happen.
Federale01
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C@LAg said:

No one going to comment on the 30 seconds of silent monologuing by the Night King in front of Bran, conveniently allowing time for Arya to magically teleport in and kill him? If he had just walked up to Bran and taken his shot.....

Classic villain trope.
The NK has always had a flair for the dramatic and played mind games with people. I think we consider him like a Terminator, no emotion, but he displayed countless times through the series he relishes in the destruction he causes. It was a little contrived, but not out of character for the NK to savior the moment or be over confident in his victory.
C@LAg
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Truvada_for_prep said:

Why did Theon have to die right before nk was killed .?
because bran was an ******* and refused to give him headsup to leave.

That whole last sequence for Theon was pointless other than to sacrifice himself.

Everyone was just standing around, waiting. And the outcome was inevitable.
Urban Ag
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So what's the general opinion here now on the AA/Prince that was Promised/Lightbringer prophecy?

Not needing it to happen to beat the NK, the Army of the Dead vanquished, and Lady Mel gone, it's gotta be pretty much taken out of play, right?

Can't really see how it fits in to the KL arc.
4the_Record
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I haven't read this entire thread so this may have already been discussed.
I am just getting into GoT this season and I find it very interesting in a number of ways.
The 3rd episode last night was extremely well shot and, overall, I enjoyed it.

The thing that really bugged me last night however were the battlefield tactics.
Yeah sure it's a show and I may be getting to far into the details but I'm wondering if anyone else felt the same way.

The nature and number of the enemy they're facing should have dictated a drastically different approach but even if we weren't talking about massive hordes of mindless Zombies, their plan was highly flawed.

Sure they could have all this piled into the castle for a classic wall defense but say they were too numerous and that they wanted to take advantage of their cavalry and siege weapons to thin out the enemy before seeking shelter or perhaps they were worried about the damage an ice dragon could/would do to tightly compacted troops... or that they wanted to show a path to the bait (Bran) for the Knight King. For what ever reason, they positioned outside the wall and we'll assume that they had good reason.

However, positioning the massed, well armed and trained unsullied phalanx behind the siege engines and those behind the Cavalry is just a terrible tactical alignment made even worse by the straight ahead heavy shock charge made with little to no support. Especially against an enemy where morale is not at all in question. They essentially threw away their cavalry and their siege and left their infantry with no support and no options but to retreat through extremely narrow bottlenecks.

Even without the benefit of an historical Alexander the great in their world, they should have known to use those troops to better advantage. Ramsey Bolton did a better job of prepping for an assault on that same ground. Phalanx center front. Lighter infantry on their wings, cavalry on the flanks with siege and archers(flaming arrows or dragon glass) to the rear or on the walls with a number of previously established firing solutions.

Using the flanking cavalry to slash the undead while they were engaged with the unsullied would have been far more effective and they could have retreated south when the infantry was over run and retreated. They would probably still have gotten their butts kicked but they would have done much better.

Am I over analyzing unnecessarily or did that affect the otherwise masterfully written and shot episode?
bangobango
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G Martin 87 said:

bangobango said:

Ranger222 said:

Can we talk a little about Melisandre in terms of her role in this entire series? I'm fine with everything she did last night. Lit some swords, lit some wood, told Arya what her true purpose was. Ok great, no problems here.

I'm just not satisfied with her ending and really her meaning. So her destiny was to strike out the terror of the night and bring light -- accomplished. But why then, if this was her real purpose, was she messing around with Stannis for so long and his pursuit of the Iron Throne? She just realized after she left Winterfell what her true purpose is and just been hanging out?

We can say that her line to Arya about stamping out "blue eyes" and the call back to season 4 (?) was "great writing", but when she first found Arya with Gendry, she cared little about her if she knew then that Arya would ultimately kill the NK and that was Melisandre's true mission in the assist. She still cared more about Gendry then! I think it was more of the writers going back and using something of little consequence back in season 4 to play it up here because it was convenient. "Blue eyes" was not even emphasized in Melisandre's quote in season 4.

And this also plays into what the 'Lord of Light' wants with Jon and his true purpose....she says that Beric has served his purpose and now will die once the LoL is finished with him. Well....the NK is defeated. What is Jon's purpose now with the LoL? Here is a bigger question -- once that task is completed, is Jon just gonna die as he was brought back to serve one role?


They retconned that quote to try to make it seem like they didn't pull this out of their asses. It was just last season Melisandre told Dany to send for Jon bc she and him were the Pwip.
Mel has consistently misinterpreted signs and events from the beginning. It's one of her defining characteristics. She makes mistakes. As the story has progressed, it's evident that she comes to regret her errors profoundly. After finally getting it right, she chooses to end it and pay for what's she done herself.
But they do nothing to show how she finally figures out it is Arya.

Look,l it doesn't work. I am not saying anybody is dumb or anything for liking it, but the way they went completely destroys all the build up about the prince who was promised, Jon's story arch, Rheagar and Lyanna's story, which led to Robert's Rebellion. It completely invalidates Ned protecting Jon's identity for all those years. It completely invalidates Jon being resurrected.

A lot of people came to this story from a fantasy fiction perspective, and if you were looking at it from that perspective then you probably saw the battle for the throne as less important as the battle against the dead. A big theme is that Jon forsakes any and all ambition for the more important battle, but then he never gets his moment to "shine" so to speak, and that is really disappointing for a lot of people who have gone through this story waiting for the pay-off for that character.

Maybe it comes in the next three episodes, but I really feel like the screenwriters lost their way on this when the source material ran out and are handling this just like any other show, which it was anything but like every other show for the first several seasons.
Cromagnum
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Urban Ag said:

So what's the general opinion here now on the AA/Prince that was Promised/Lightbringer prophecy?

Not needing it to happen to beat the NK, the Army of the Dead vanquished, and Lady Mel gone, it's gotta be pretty much taken out of play, right?

Can't really see how it fits in to the KL arc.


Book only. Unnecessary now.
C@LAg
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Urban Ag said:

So what's the general opinion here now on the AA/Prince that was Promised/Lightbringer prophecy?

Not needing it to happen to beat the NK, the Army of the Dead vanquished, and Lady Mel gone, it's gotta be pretty much taken out of play, right?

Can't really see how it fits in to the KL arc.
going just by the tv show it was solely a motivation device for Mel, to bring back Jon so he could unite the north so the battle of winterfell could happen and the NK be killed. other than that it was pointless.
CastleRock
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The ultimate fantasy:

On the day of the series finale, GRRM announces the last two books are done and will be released immediately following the end of the episode.

The internet breaks.
bangobango
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C@LAg said:

Trident 88 said:

Quote:

but he's a top notch swordsman.



is he really? on the TV show?

Well, Bolton said he was right before the battle of the *******s. That's about all the evidence we've had that Jon is competent at anything at all.
Beezy2389
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Which is ridiculous. I know we need to wait until the series ends but let's not pretend like that was a book only prophecy.

bangobango
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4the_Record said:

I haven't read this entire thread so this may have already been discussed.
I am just getting into GoT this season and I find it very interesting in a number of ways.
The 3rd episode last night was extremely well shot and, overall, I enjoyed it.

The thing that really bugged me last night however were the battlefield tactics.
Yeah sure it's a show and I may be getting to far into the details but I'm wondering if anyone else felt the same way.

The nature and number of the enemy they're facing should have dictated a drastically different approach but even if we weren't talking about massive hordes of mindless Zombies, their plan was highly flawed.

Sure they could have all this piled into the castle for a classic wall defense but say they were too numerous and that they wanted to take advantage of their cavalry and siege weapons to thin out the enemy before seeking shelter or perhaps they were worried about the damage an ice dragon could/would do to tightly compacted troops... or that they wanted to show a path to the bait (Bran) for the Knight King. For what ever reason, they positioned outside the wall and we'll assume that they had good reason.

However, positioning the massed, well armed and trained unsullied phalanx behind the siege engines and those behind the Cavalry is just a terrible tactical alignment made even worse by the straight ahead heavy shock charge made with little to no support. Especially against an enemy where morale is not at all in question. They essentially threw away their cavalry and their siege and left their infantry with no support and no options but to retreat through extremely narrow bottlenecks.

Even without the benefit of an historical Alexander the great in their world, they should have known to use those troops to better advantage. Ramsey Bolton did a better job of prepping for an assault on that same ground. Phalanx center front. Lighter infantry on their wings, cavalry on the flanks with siege and archers(flaming arrows or dragon glass) to the rear or on the walls with a number of previously established firing solutions.

Using the flanking cavalry to slash the undead while they were engaged with the unsullied would have been far more effective and they could have retreated south when the infantry was over run and retreated. They would probably still have gotten their butts kicked but they would have done much better.

Am I over analyzing unnecessarily or did that affect the otherwise masterfully written and shot episode?
I've just about given up on hollwood writers even trying to make something that makes tactical sense. It drives me crazy, too, but it seems to be beyond the ability of these people to make a battle that is both dramatic and competent planning and strategy.
chipotle
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A lot of the youtube reviews I'm seeing have the same issues with the episode as myself:

1. dothraki suicide
2. character plot armor in the biggest battle ever
3. NK threat over?
4. arya w/ the death blow
5. jon leaving sam to die because, "meh, he's almost died a bunch today already, he'll be ok"
G Martin 87
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bangobango said:

G Martin 87 said:

bangobango said:

Ranger222 said:

Can we talk a little about Melisandre in terms of her role in this entire series? I'm fine with everything she did last night. Lit some swords, lit some wood, told Arya what her true purpose was. Ok great, no problems here.

I'm just not satisfied with her ending and really her meaning. So her destiny was to strike out the terror of the night and bring light -- accomplished. But why then, if this was her real purpose, was she messing around with Stannis for so long and his pursuit of the Iron Throne? She just realized after she left Winterfell what her true purpose is and just been hanging out?

We can say that her line to Arya about stamping out "blue eyes" and the call back to season 4 (?) was "great writing", but when she first found Arya with Gendry, she cared little about her if she knew then that Arya would ultimately kill the NK and that was Melisandre's true mission in the assist. She still cared more about Gendry then! I think it was more of the writers going back and using something of little consequence back in season 4 to play it up here because it was convenient. "Blue eyes" was not even emphasized in Melisandre's quote in season 4.

And this also plays into what the 'Lord of Light' wants with Jon and his true purpose....she says that Beric has served his purpose and now will die once the LoL is finished with him. Well....the NK is defeated. What is Jon's purpose now with the LoL? Here is a bigger question -- once that task is completed, is Jon just gonna die as he was brought back to serve one role?


They retconned that quote to try to make it seem like they didn't pull this out of their asses. It was just last season Melisandre told Dany to send for Jon bc she and him were the Pwip.
Mel has consistently misinterpreted signs and events from the beginning. It's one of her defining characteristics. She makes mistakes. As the story has progressed, it's evident that she comes to regret her errors profoundly. After finally getting it right, she chooses to end it and pay for what's she done herself.
But they do nothing to show how she finally figures out it is Arya.

Look,l it doesn't work. I am not saying anybody is dumb or anything for liking it, but the way they went completely destroys all the build up about the prince who was promised, Jon's story arch, Rheagar and Lyanna's story, which led to Robert's Rebellion. It completely invalidates Ned protecting Jon's identity for all those years. It completely invalidates Jon being resurrected.

A lot of people came to this story from a fantasy fiction perspective, and if you were looking at it from that perspective then you probably saw the battle for the throne as less important as the battle against the dead. A big theme is that Jon forsakes any and all ambition for the more important battle, but then he never gets his moment to "shine" so to speak, and that is really disappointing for a lot of people who have gone through this story waiting for the pay-off for that character.

Maybe it comes in the next three episodes, but I really feel like the screenwriters lost their way on this when the source material ran out and are handling this just like any other show, which it was anything but like every other show for the first several seasons.
There's no "maybe" about it. Jon's story arc has not been "completely invalidated." It remains unresolved. He is the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne, not Dany.
YellowPot_97
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Furlock Bones said:

Yup. As I said earlier, this is not going to age well at all. They effed up the entire series.

Drama queen much?
Belton Ag
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Quote:

Am I over analyzing unnecessarily or did that affect the otherwise masterfully written and shot episode?

I think you're somewhat overanalyzing it. The writers said that the Dothraki's only real skill in combat is riding in a horde and overrunning the enemy, not as a trained cavalry force that can understand flanking tactics. Overall, it seemed like everyone at Winterfell assumed they were all going to die anyway and the thought was to try and use their forces in waves or levels of defense to slow down the advance. Level 1 being the Dothraki, 2 being the unsullied, 3 being the fire trench and lastly manning the castle walls. Holding the undead off as long as possible until the Night King came for Bran was the whole purpose of their army; everyone at Winterfell was essentially fodder.

Fenrir
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Jon leaving Sam to die is not a big issue for except there was no payoff. At the time, Jon probably felt like he had to choose between saving bran or Sam. He chose bran because that was the plan all along. The problem is there was no consequence for that choice.
bangobango
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G Martin 87 said:

bangobango said:

G Martin 87 said:

bangobango said:

Ranger222 said:

Can we talk a little about Melisandre in terms of her role in this entire series? I'm fine with everything she did last night. Lit some swords, lit some wood, told Arya what her true purpose was. Ok great, no problems here.

I'm just not satisfied with her ending and really her meaning. So her destiny was to strike out the terror of the night and bring light -- accomplished. But why then, if this was her real purpose, was she messing around with Stannis for so long and his pursuit of the Iron Throne? She just realized after she left Winterfell what her true purpose is and just been hanging out?

We can say that her line to Arya about stamping out "blue eyes" and the call back to season 4 (?) was "great writing", but when she first found Arya with Gendry, she cared little about her if she knew then that Arya would ultimately kill the NK and that was Melisandre's true mission in the assist. She still cared more about Gendry then! I think it was more of the writers going back and using something of little consequence back in season 4 to play it up here because it was convenient. "Blue eyes" was not even emphasized in Melisandre's quote in season 4.

And this also plays into what the 'Lord of Light' wants with Jon and his true purpose....she says that Beric has served his purpose and now will die once the LoL is finished with him. Well....the NK is defeated. What is Jon's purpose now with the LoL? Here is a bigger question -- once that task is completed, is Jon just gonna die as he was brought back to serve one role?


They retconned that quote to try to make it seem like they didn't pull this out of their asses. It was just last season Melisandre told Dany to send for Jon bc she and him were the Pwip.
Mel has consistently misinterpreted signs and events from the beginning. It's one of her defining characteristics. She makes mistakes. As the story has progressed, it's evident that she comes to regret her errors profoundly. After finally getting it right, she chooses to end it and pay for what's she done herself.
But they do nothing to show how she finally figures out it is Arya.

Look,l it doesn't work. I am not saying anybody is dumb or anything for liking it, but the way they went completely destroys all the build up about the prince who was promised, Jon's story arch, Rheagar and Lyanna's story, which led to Robert's Rebellion. It completely invalidates Ned protecting Jon's identity for all those years. It completely invalidates Jon being resurrected.

A lot of people came to this story from a fantasy fiction perspective, and if you were looking at it from that perspective then you probably saw the battle for the throne as less important as the battle against the dead. A big theme is that Jon forsakes any and all ambition for the more important battle, but then he never gets his moment to "shine" so to speak, and that is really disappointing for a lot of people who have gone through this story waiting for the pay-off for that character.

Maybe it comes in the next three episodes, but I really feel like the screenwriters lost their way on this when the source material ran out and are handling this just like any other show, which it was anything but like every other show for the first several seasons.
There's no "maybe" about it. Jon's story arc has not been "completely invalidated." It remains unresolved. He is the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne, not Dany.
Like I said, if the Iron throne is what drew you into this story, then that probably works great for you. i think there are more than a few of us, however, that were much more interested int he mystical aspects of this story than the political intrigue. Putting Jon in the middle of that is going to cheapen the hell out of his character, to me.
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