I sorta doubt he knows. In the last couple seasons, they have kinda gone out of their way to may Tyrion a moron. Completely reversed from the seasons prior.

Urban Ag said:

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Rudyjax said:

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It was because every man in her life wants to bone her. He is no exception.

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Varys: well, except for I. Such lurid thoughts have never occurred to me.

Grey Worm: You speak for yourself. This one would bone. Unsullied are resourceful, find other way.

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Gendry is not a b astard....in my theory I posted a while back

Gendry is Cersei's and Roberts first born son and true Baratheon heir

redline248 said:

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I don't think they've made him a moron as much as shown his bro/sis know him well enough to anticipate what's happening, and he figured he's just smarter than them.

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Yet before a couple seasons ago, it seemed that he was ahead of them on everything (from what I can remember). I assume they knew him well back then too.

gigemJTH12 said:

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I have a theory that he already knows and has never said anything.

Remember how he was staring at the room when they first had the secks?

It was like he knew.

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That would be interesting. When he was looking at them closing the door I felt like he was a little anxious due to a potential loss of power. Being the hand, he is only as strong as the queen. If Tyrion doesn't know, but finds out about Jon, I want to see how he plays it. He obviously has a good relationship with both of them.

On another Tyrion note, I am looking forward to his role during Jaime's "trial" - He didn't want his brother to die when he idiotically tried to kill Dany - wonder how he will consult with the Queen on this matter

agrams said:

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those were my thoughts too.

Jon isnt the type to just blurt it out. I wonder if Bran drops the ball publically, or maybe even Sam. but Daenerys' lifelong entitlement will just make her deny it without any blatant proof.

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Ice dragon and fire dragon blow flames at each other and jon walks through completely unscathed??

redline248 said:

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I do wonder how HBO intends to legitimize Jon in the eyes of the realm. Would the Citadel maesters verify the journal entry? Using Howland Reed at this point seems very unlikely. Would Varys have heard rumors? Seems like the kind of think he'd have acted on sooner if he knew or suspected.

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It's possible that they lose Winterfell in episode 3, and have to retreat back to the Iron Islands as Yara mentioned in the last episode, and on the way there they take refuge in The Neck, where the Reeds reside. Could open an opportunity.

Also possible Sam is still pissed at Dany so she does something to piss him off and he drops the news, or Sansa finds out and does something.

aTmAg said:

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redline248 said:

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I don't think they've made him a moron as much as shown his bro/sis know him well enough to anticipate what's happening, and he figured he's just smarter than them.

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Yet before a couple seasons ago, it seemed that he was ahead of them on everything (from what I can remember). I assume they knew him well back then too.

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Was he really? Every time Tyrion thought he had things figured out, he got (not necessarily in order):

-trampled by "his" hill tribe
-Nose cut off and nearly killed at Blackwater
-humiliated in front of the court by his nephew
-tried and nearly executed in two separate courts
-cheated on by his hoar with his pops
-smuggled out in a box
-caught and begging/bribing his way out of capture again in Essos

The "humbling & maturing" of Tyrion has been a running thing throughout the show. He's always had great lines, but I'm not sure he's necessarily been built up to be "brilliant."

I think he's very smart in a logical sense, but he also has a hard time understanding people that don't think logically. he's continually wrong on what he thinks people will do because he thinks people will follow logic and/or do what's best for everyone instead of being emotional or just doing what's best for themselves.

I would argue that he figured Jaime/Cersei would do the emotional thing and defend Casterly Rock, when they did the smart thing and attacked Highgarden. Also, he just failed to consider the Iron Fleet joining Cersei, or maybe he thought she would again do the emotional thing and tell Euron to get bent.

Aggie Pharmer said:

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FightinTexasAg15 said:

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redline248 said:

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I do wonder how HBO intends to legitimize Jon in the eyes of the realm. Would the Citadel maesters verify the journal entry? Using Howland Reed at this point seems very unlikely. Would Varys have heard rumors? Seems like the kind of think he'd have acted on sooner if he knew or suspected.

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It's possible that they lose Winterfell in episode 3, and have to retreat back to the Iron Islands as Yara mentioned in the last episode, and on the way there they take refuge in The Neck, where the Reeds reside. Could open an opportunity.

Also possible Sam is still pissed at Dany so she does something to piss him off and he drops the news, or Sansa finds out and does something.

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I don't think they will go to the Iron Islands. I think if they do retreat, they will go to the Vale.

I was re-watching the episodes with my wife, a first-timer, and we watched S4E4 Sunday night. It's when Littlefinger takes Sansa to the Eyrie. They are walking along the path and she asks isn't there another way to get to the Eyrie. Littlefinger says no. That the lords of the Vale didn't have much, but they had the mountains and that 1 defender could have the strength of 10,000 defenders as the only way to approach the Vale is through this narrow valley/pass that only would allow 3 attackers abreast to past through it.

That's my guesstimate...

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Maybe. Something like that doesn't seem like it'd make for good TV though.

Is there somewhere they could retreat to that gives them a big advantage over an incoming force, but backs them up against the sea? I could see Cersei waiting for that army and the army of the dead to fight each other with the Lannister Army waiting nearby and the Iron Fleet at the coast to finish off whoever wins.

Actually, is the Eyrie on the sea? I was trying to look that up and it appears as though it isn't in the books, but is in the show.

I've had the same thought but then remembered ice dragon. Nowhere is safe from him.

Yes in the books

we're down to five episodes. Really don't think there is any time for retreat and regroup, to anywhere. We know Ep2 will be all the tension at Winterfell because of Jamie and Dany's your aunt reveal, and the build up to BOW. Ep3 is seemingly the BOW. So then Ep4 would be the flight from Winterfell and a regrouping somewhere else? While you still have to deal with Cersei? Just don't think there is enough time for more than two major events. BOW and KL showdown. Of course I could be wrong.

Ep2 - build up to BOW
Ep3 - BOW
Ep4 - aftermath of BOW
Ep5 - turn this party south
Ep6 - whatever happens at KL to finish out the Game of Thrones. Bran take a small boat with Gandalf and some Children of the Forest to a place where magical beings will be safe and comfortable. The end.

Urban Ag said:

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we're down to five episodes. Really don't think there is any time for retreat and regroup, to anywhere. We know Ep2 will be all the tension at Winterfell because of Jamie and Dany's your aunt reveal, and the build up to BOW. Ep3 is seemingly the BOW. So then Ep4 would be the flight from Winterfell and a regrouping somewhere else? While you still have to deal with Cersei? Just don't think there is enough time for more than two major events. BOW and KL showdown. Of course I could be wrong.

Ep2 - build up to BOW
Ep3 - BOW
Ep4 - aftermath of BOW
Ep5 - turn this party south
Ep6 - whatever happens at KL to finish out the Game of Thrones. Bran take a small boat with Gandalf and some Children of the Forest to a place where magical beings will be safe and comfortable. The end.

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Agree completely. I think the NK will be mostly "defeated"/storyline played out by the end of episode 4 and the final showdown with Cersei will happen over the last 2 episodes.

Urban Ag said:

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we're down to five episodes. Really don't think there is any time for retreat and regroup, to anywhere. We know Ep2 will be all the tension at Winterfell because of Jamie and Dany's your aunt reveal, and the build up to BOW. Ep3 is seemingly the BOW. So then Ep4 would be the flight from Winterfell and a regrouping somewhere else? While you still have to deal with Cersei? Just don't think there is enough time for more than two major events. BOW and KL showdown. Of course I could be wrong.

Ep2 - build up to BOW
Ep3 - BOW
Ep4 - aftermath of BOW
Ep5 - turn this party south
Ep6 - whatever happens at KL to finish out the Game of Thrones. Bran take a small boat with Gandalf and some Children of the Forest to a place where magical beings will be safe and comfortable. The end.

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Well Ep 2 is 58 minutes. Ep 3-6 are all 80ish minutes meaning you have really 6+1/3 episodes of show time in 5 Sundays (or put another way 4 episodes of time in 3 Sundays AFTER the BOW). That allows for a bit more.

I also think KL is not going to have to be dealt with in a "big" way except Jamie v Cersei stopping her from destroying it all as the threat looms.

I think
Ep2 - build up to BOW and at least one twist of allegiance
Ep3 - BOW - lots of death here sidekicks and maybe a dragon or two and one or two main chars
Ep4 - Cersei tries to take advantage attacking after BOW but these plans are foiled somehow (not a big battle, more of a plot twist). And plans made for taking KL, that is put in motion.
Ep5 - Jamie v Cerei he saves KL from her and killing her, then fallout and few more surprise twists of fate
Ep6 - wrapup and then an epilogue perhaps months later (Dany dies in childbirth if she did not die in Ep3).

I think any showdown in KL is not another big battle - it's Cersei staring down fate and losing finally. She will play her hand earlier and be left with only one option - burn it all. I think there will be some sort of assault to breach the city (maybe with dragons) but I don't think it's an all out battle with big armies.

Sine poena nulla lex.

I don't think there is going to be much of a siege at KL either and that it goes down as you described or close to that. So....that would free up some budget for something like another skirmish before Jon/Dany's forces get to KL. Also think the Golden Company will bail at some point, which leads to Cersei's despair decision to go Mad King.

Sine poena nulla lex.

Sine poena nulla lex.

Yeah, that's true. Assuming that's all this is and Tyrion really is a moron, it's just really sad. The only thing he had going for him was his wits. Without that he's pretty useless and Dany is an idiot for making him her hand.

I love it

C@LAg said:

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SAtxag16 said:

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Urban Ag said:

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we're down to five episodes. Really don't think there is any time for retreat and regroup, to anywhere. We know Ep2 will be all the tension at Winterfell because of Jamie and Dany's your aunt reveal, and the build up to BOW. Ep3 is seemingly the BOW. So then Ep4 would be the flight from Winterfell and a regrouping somewhere else? While you still have to deal with Cersei? Just don't think there is enough time for more than two major events. BOW and KL showdown. Of course I could be wrong.

Ep2 - build up to BOW
Ep3 - BOW
Ep4 - aftermath of BOW
Ep5 - turn this party south
Ep6 - whatever happens at KL to finish out the Game of Thrones. Bran take a small boat with Gandalf and some Children of the Forest to a place where magical beings will be safe and comfortable. The end.

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Agree completely. I think the NK will be mostly "defeated"/storyline played out by the end of episode 4 and the final showdown with Cersei will happen over the last 2 episodes.

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assuming the prophecy clips are true, we know the snow and ice makes it down to KL, and that the Red keep is damaged. I think the NK and his horde make it to KL.

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Wellll. I think snow can reach KL without the NK getting there. Winter arrived in WF about a season or more back - really about the time of the BoB in S6 E9. Of course they always have some winter but S7 showed it to be a deep winter building. But the NK wasn't there yet. My presumption is that it precedes him.

So if I were to guess it's already past the Neck and even past the Riverlands and The Vale. Usually I think winter stays north of the Neck. In fact we saw the first snow falling and hit Jamie as he was leaving KL (although it did not appear to be there in Cersei's scenes in E1). I think it was close though.


Regarding the prophecy scenes I took them to be symbolic not literal.

Snow on KL - Jon Snow
blue rose in a wall of ice - Dany having a kid with Jon (book)
Dany not reaching or touching the throne - she won't end up on it
RK could be damaged literally but dragons can do that - or any fire really - don't need armies.

Not a spoiler but prognostication based on public info regarding production:
the other factor for me is we heard bout the large battle scene filming for BOW but we heard about no other large scale battle scenes. they could have done it all inside of course and kept it under wraps I suppose.

Sounds like a plausible theory to me.

aggietony2010 said:

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Reddit theory that I liked (for all I know it could be based on a leak, so I'm spoilering it, but it seemed like a pretty good one)

Everyone assumes that the big clash is going to be at the Battle of Winter fell, and that's probably where the army of the dead is marching. But that's not where the night king is headed.

Why would the NK head to Winterfell where he'll be facing a 2v1 dragon fight against a prepared army. We've seen glimpses of a frozen and destroyed Kings Landing, and a dragon riding overhead. But we've never seen who is on the dragon. Why wouldn't the Night King head that way with Ice-Viserion, wreck shop, and add a million to the army of the dead. King's Landing is defenseless aside from the wildfire. Dragonglass? nope. Valyrian steel? Nope, the last blade we know of headed North with Jamie.

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that's not bad - at first I thought you meant the entire dead army. that's impossible even with Westeros time travel. they are barely past the Last Hearth which is still well north of WF. It took Jamie weeks it appears to go from KL to WF.

But just the NK on Viserion.... maybe.

the vision of a dragon over KL was by Bran back in S4 and it was just a shadow so it could have been the ice dragon and we would not know it.

It wouldn't be for an army though - not to join this fight - again they would be weeks away from WF. But could they take KL with just a few thousand in a dead army sure. A pre-emptive strike.

Or he might just wreck shop there and try to distract the other armies - get the Golden Company to turn back maybe. And would that cause disruption in the preparations at WF.

Interesting theory and strategy maybe.

I would like to point out that the only people who believe dragonglass kills WWs are in the north.

The rest may have heard it from ravens (or the peace conference) but they certainly arent heading to dragonstone to mine it.