<snipped>

<snipped>

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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Teddy Perkins said:

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It's the colons.

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ugh. i took out colons and semicolons too - still no worky. I hate these F-ing spoiler tags

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ok it was also the bullets.

stupid feature that it can't have some characters like colons, etc.

Sine poena nulla lex.

C@LAg said:

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Are you talking books or TV?

If TV, I think that is way too complicated to play out with what we have left. And let's be honest, pretty much all of that AA/NN/, hell any of the prophecy crap is garbage, outside of who ends up killing Cersei and maybe if they address the 3rd betrayal.

It is a good thought experiment and can come into play if the books ever come out, but expecting that in 6 episodes... not so much.

The thing is... if they defeat the NK, there is no need for another NK. He is what animates the dead. He is not existing for any other purpose outside as an antagonist. He is not keeping anything at bay, he is not bound to anyone or to any object.

If they kill the NK, all the dead collapse. Without him, there is no army of the dead, no need for a wall, etc. The dead north of the wall have no specific spiritual/vengeance beef with anyone else.

IMO it would end up being convoluted garbage to end up always needing to have a Night King north of the wall because all he is is the vengeance or whatever of the CotF come to life, and with a will of its own.

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Good post IMO.

There is just not enough runway left to get even more convoluted. The NK will either win or be destroyed. It's illogical, IMO, to think he can win at Winterfell unless you buy in to some notion that the armies in the North can retreat quickly enough to KL and ally with Cersei for some final showdown. Can't see that happening. The battle has to end at Winterfell, and at a great cost, and then the story finally concludes the "Game of Thrones" at KL. As it should.

I don't see any plausible scenario where there is some new NK or why. The Wall is smashed. There is no sending the WW and army of the dead back north. That is useless now. It's all or nothing.

I could see a scenario where Dany is severely wounded at Winterfell and Jon rallies the armies, or what is left of them, to march on KL. Then Jamie steps up to meet his destiny, twice. Dany dies. The Iron Born take the Dothraki back to Essos with their plunder. Tyrion sits the Iron Throne in a "UN" style capacity. Jon either dies or goes back to the North, if dies, Sansa takes the North. Arya rides off in to the sunset with Gendry. Davos returns to his wife. Brienne, carrying Jamie's child becomes the Regent of the Rock. Varys advises Tyrion. Etc.

A lot of characters are going to die. Bank on it. I just don't see any major upsets. I hope I am surprised.

Urban Ag said:

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C@LAg said:

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Are you talking books or TV?

If TV, I think that is way too complicated to play out with what we have left. And let's be honest, pretty much all of that AA/NN/, hell any of the prophecy crap is garbage, outside of who ends up killing Cersei and maybe if they address the 3rd betrayal.

It is a good thought experiment and can come into play if the books ever come out, but expecting that in 6 episodes... not so much.

The thing is... if they defeat the NK, there is no need for another NK. He is what animates the dead. He is not existing for any other purpose outside as an antagonist. He is not keeping anything at bay, he is not bound to anyone or to any object.

If they kill the NK, all the dead collapse. Without him, there is no army of the dead, no need for a wall, etc. The dead north of the wall have no specific spiritual/vengeance beef with anyone else.

IMO it would end up being convoluted garbage to end up always needing to have a Night King north of the wall because all he is is the vengeance or whatever of the CotF come to life, and with a will of its own.

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Good post IMO.

There is just not enough runway left to get even more convoluted. The NK will either win or be destroyed. It's illogical, IMO, to think he can win at Winterfell unless you buy in to some notion that the armies in the North can retreat quickly enough to KL and ally with Cersei for some final showdown. Can't see that happening. The battle has to end at Winterfell, and at a great cost, and then the story finally concludes the "Game of Thrones" at KL. As it should.

I don't see any plausible scenario where there is some new NK or why. The Wall is smashed. There is no sending the WW and army of the dead back north. That is useless now. It's all or nothing.

I could see a scenario where Dany is severely wounded at Winterfell and Jon rallies the armies, or what is left of them, to march on KL. Then Jamie steps up to meet his destiny, twice. Dany dies. The Iron Born take the Dothraki back to Essos with their plunder. Tyrion sits the Iron Throne in a "UN" style capacity. Jon either dies or goes back to the North, if dies, Sansa takes the North. Arya rides off in to the sunset with Gendry. Davos returns to his wife. Brienne, carrying Jamie's child becomes the Regent of the Rock. Varys advises Tyrion. Etc.

A lot of characters are going to die. Bank on it. I just don't see any major upsets. I hope I am surprised.

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Agreed that Jon being LB AND ending up as the new NK is the most unlikely part of my theory..... it is more likely he simply goes back to Winterfell and King in the North with Sansa and Bran. I just liked that complete story and encompassing all the prophecies and mythologies. Although I don't think it actually takes long to establish him as LB if it happens - more like it is revealed by his other worldly ability or action in battle and then explained via Bran in 5 minutes.

But I also don't believe the show writers went on any serious tangent with bringing Jon back from the dead. There is a reason that happened and it came from GRRM. Although I'm sure it is more detailed and laborious in the books (if we ever get there).

And it stems from Jon having both some higher purpose and that he was different somehow and was born that way - it wasn't because Melisandre knew what she was doing. She did not know how it worked really. Same with Thoros of Myr he never really understood why it worked only with Beric Dondarrion it just did.

There is a reason Jon did not die. But it might not be any more complex than Beric - just that he still has a role to play. But it seems like more than that and being Lightbringer would explain it all (although then what is Beric?).

Anyway I'm fine if none of the magic/myths persist after. But I certainly think the prophecies play a part. Why play out part of the prophecies but not all of them.

If some of these predictions come true, it would be very confusing for casual fans like myself. I am ignorant of the prophecies and wouldn't catch on that outcome X satisfies prophecy Y.

Epic episode.

We have to see the Walkers and Cersei wrapped up

6 episodes. I kinda see a 4 episode white walker and 2 more for Cersei.

I think it will go down like this:

The NK will be kicking ass for much of the season. Just when things appear to be really bleak, the NK will be killed suddenly ending the entire war. The north and Dany's forces will take the brunt of the damage and Cersie will therefore turn her army on Dany as soon as the NK war is over. Jamie, realizing that Cersie is bad, will kill her. I think Dany will die, and Jon will take the throne.

Will killing Cersei immediately stop her army?

AgMarauder04 said:

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Will killing Cersei immediately stop her army?

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I think it will be a mad king sort of thing. Jamie will kill her because she is so bad, that nobody would really object a whole lot. The Lannister army will follow Jamie. (The mountain may object... but I think the Hound will kill him)

aTmAg said:

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I think it will go down like this:

The NK will be kicking ass for much of the season. Just when things appear to be really bleak, the NK will be killed suddenly ending the entire war. The north and Dany's forces will take the brunt of the damage and Cersie will therefore turn her army on Dany as soon as the NK war is over. Jamie, realizing that Cersie is bad, will kill her. I think Dany will die, and Jon will take the throne.

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That's entirely plausible and in fact if I were to make a "pedestrian" (or non myth/prophecy based) prediction it would go down pretty much exactly like that. I would only add or change:

Dany dies in childbirth (like her mother and Jon's) giving an heir to Jon who assumes the throne.




Ironically that fulfills many of the prophecies other than AA+NN+LB - without necessarily having to delve into them. So it could work that way for the show and book readers both.

It fulfills the Valonqar or little brother killing Cersei - but you don't have to show that it can just happen and book readers know about it. Show watchers don't need to. It still just works for Jamie's redemption.

It fulfills the prophecy about Dany and having children/seeing Drogo - the witch lady told her in season 1 - and she may see Drogo again then in death after giving birth. When the sun (son) rises in the West could refer to the birth of her son. And the other parts could refer to the destruction of the wall, and the NK, etc. The books contained the further prophecy of her womb healing then. But you don't have to show that. Dany has made reference to that idea saying she can never have children - but she could be wrong of course. She just never expected those things to come true.

It also fulfills the vision Dany had in the House of the Undying also in the show - of snow (think Jon Snow) on the iron throne and her not quite reaching it.

But those can all happen without having to go into any detail or explanation really.

The ONLY reason I hold onto the Azor Ahai and LB prophecy is I fail to see how the NK is destroyed without something miraculous. But it's possible of course. In which case the more "pedestrian" resolution is much more likely.

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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aTmAg said:

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I think it will go down like this:

The NK will be kicking ass for much of the season. Just when things appear to be really bleak, the NK will be killed suddenly ending the entire war. The north and Dany's forces will take the brunt of the damage and Cersie will therefore turn her army on Dany as soon as the NK war is over. Jamie, realizing that Cersie is bad, will kill her. I think Dany will die, and Jon will take the throne.

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That's entirely plausible and in fact if I were to make a "pedestrian" (or non myth/prophecy based) prediction it would go down pretty much exactly like that. I would only add or change:

Dany dies in childbirth (like her mother and Jon's) giving an heir to Jon who assumes the throne.




Ironically that fulfills many of the prophecies other than AA+NN+LB - without necessarily having to delve into them. So it could work that way for the show and book readers both.

It fulfills the Valonqar or little brother killing Cersei - but you don't have to show that it can just happen and book readers know about it. Show watchers don't need to. It still just works for Jamie's redemption.

It fulfills the prophecy about Dany and having children/seeing Drogo - the witch lady told her in season 1 - and she may see Drogo again then in death after giving birth. When the sun (son) rises in the West could refer to the birth of her son. And the other parts could refer to the destruction of the wall, and the NK, etc. The books contained the further prophecy of her womb healing then. But you don't have to show that. Dany has made reference to that idea saying she can never have children - but she could be wrong of course. She just never expected those things to come true.

It also fulfills the vision Dany had in the House of the Undying also in the show - of snow (think Jon Snow) on the iron throne and her not quite reaching it.

But those can all happen without having to go into any detail or explanation really.

The ONLY reason I hold onto the Azor Ahai and LB prophecy is I fail to see how the NK is destroyed without something miraculous. But it's possible of course. In which case the more "pedestrian" resolution is much more likely.

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Real quick.. for the pedestrian like me, could you spell out AA and NN? I assume LB is Light Bender?

C@LAg said:

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aTmAg said:

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Real quick.. for the pedestrian like me, could you spell out AA and NN? I assume LB is Light Bender?

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AY-AY

EN -EN

no, it is an English measurement for "pound".

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Thanks, that clears it all up.

aTmAg said:

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Zombie Jon Snow said:

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aTmAg said:

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I think it will go down like this:

The NK will be kicking ass for much of the season. Just when things appear to be really bleak, the NK will be killed suddenly ending the entire war. The north and Dany's forces will take the brunt of the damage and Cersie will therefore turn her army on Dany as soon as the NK war is over. Jamie, realizing that Cersie is bad, will kill her. I think Dany will die, and Jon will take the throne.

---

That's entirely plausible and in fact if I were to make a "pedestrian" (or non myth/prophecy based) prediction it would go down pretty much exactly like that. I would only add or change:

Dany dies in childbirth (like her mother and Jon's) giving an heir to Jon who assumes the throne.




Ironically that fulfills many of the prophecies other than AA+NN+LB - without necessarily having to delve into them. So it could work that way for the show and book readers both.

It fulfills the Valonqar or little brother killing Cersei - but you don't have to show that it can just happen and book readers know about it. Show watchers don't need to. It still just works for Jamie's redemption.

It fulfills the prophecy about Dany and having children/seeing Drogo - the witch lady told her in season 1 - and she may see Drogo again then in death after giving birth. When the sun (son) rises in the West could refer to the birth of her son. And the other parts could refer to the destruction of the wall, and the NK, etc. The books contained the further prophecy of her womb healing then. But you don't have to show that. Dany has made reference to that idea saying she can never have children - but she could be wrong of course. She just never expected those things to come true.

It also fulfills the vision Dany had in the House of the Undying also in the show - of snow (think Jon Snow) on the iron throne and her not quite reaching it.

But those can all happen without having to go into any detail or explanation really.

The ONLY reason I hold onto the Azor Ahai and LB prophecy is I fail to see how the NK is destroyed without something miraculous. But it's possible of course. In which case the more "pedestrian" resolution is much more likely.

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Real quick.. for the pedestrian like me, could you spell out AA and NN? I assume LB is Light Bender?

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Much has been said on the show in snippets here and there - from Melisandre and Tyrion and Maester Aemon I believe, and others...... but a lot more detail is in the books of course. but it does exist in the shows (the legend I mean) and plays a part in some people's decisions (Melisandre and Stannis for example).

Basically:

AA = Azor Ahai = the Prince that was promised to return and defeat darkness
NN = Nissa Nissa his love
LB = Lightbringer = the sword of AA that enables him to defeat darkness

The legend is that AA will come again - specifically from these ancient books of Asshai: "when the stars bleed and the cold winds blow, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. That sword will be Lightbringer. The one who draws it will be Azor Ahai reborn".

And the tale of how he forges the sword is that he first labored 30 days/nights and tempered it in water but it shattered. then he labored 50 days/nights and thrust it into the hear of a LION (ahem) but it shattered again. The third time after toiling 90 days/nights he summoned his wife Nissa Nissa and asked her to bare her breast and then plunged it into her heart - when he withdrew it he had created Lightbringer.


So many people relate this legend to various people - Melisandre in the show believed it was Stannis for example. Others think it will be Jamie - his gold hand somehow being forged as LB when he plunges it into Cersei his love. And others think it will be Jon - that he'll kill Tyrion maybe (Lion) and then have to kill Dany (his love) to forge it and kill the NK. Others think Dany is AA (the "prince" part is actually non specific to gender in Valyrian language as Missande pointed out) and that she kills the NK. As I proposed earlier I think maybe Jon himself is Lightbringer the "weapon" - born of Rhaegar who was AA and Lyanna who was Nissa Nissa (he plunged his "sword" wink-wink into her and she died when LB was created or Jon was born).

Like all prophecies and legends you can apply it to many things through your interpretation.

Page 66

LOL

AA=Azor Ahai
NN= Nissa Nissa
LB= Light Bringer

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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aTmAg said:

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Zombie Jon Snow said:

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aTmAg said:

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I think it will go down like this:

The NK will be kicking ass for much of the season. Just when things appear to be really bleak, the NK will be killed suddenly ending the entire war. The north and Dany's forces will take the brunt of the damage and Cersie will therefore turn her army on Dany as soon as the NK war is over. Jamie, realizing that Cersie is bad, will kill her. I think Dany will die, and Jon will take the throne.

---

That's entirely plausible and in fact if I were to make a "pedestrian" (or non myth/prophecy based) prediction it would go down pretty much exactly like that. I would only add or change:

Dany dies in childbirth (like her mother and Jon's) giving an heir to Jon who assumes the throne.




Ironically that fulfills many of the prophecies other than AA+NN+LB - without necessarily having to delve into them. So it could work that way for the show and book readers both.

It fulfills the Valonqar or little brother killing Cersei - but you don't have to show that it can just happen and book readers know about it. Show watchers don't need to. It still just works for Jamie's redemption.

It fulfills the prophecy about Dany and having children/seeing Drogo - the witch lady told her in season 1 - and she may see Drogo again then in death after giving birth. When the sun (son) rises in the West could refer to the birth of her son. And the other parts could refer to the destruction of the wall, and the NK, etc. The books contained the further prophecy of her womb healing then. But you don't have to show that. Dany has made reference to that idea saying she can never have children - but she could be wrong of course. She just never expected those things to come true.

It also fulfills the vision Dany had in the House of the Undying also in the show - of snow (think Jon Snow) on the iron throne and her not quite reaching it.

But those can all happen without having to go into any detail or explanation really.

The ONLY reason I hold onto the Azor Ahai and LB prophecy is I fail to see how the NK is destroyed without something miraculous. But it's possible of course. In which case the more "pedestrian" resolution is much more likely.

---

Real quick.. for the pedestrian like me, could you spell out AA and NN? I assume LB is Light Bender?

---

Much has been said on the show in snippets here and there - from Melisandre and Tyrion and Maester Aemon I believe, and others...... but a lot more detail is in the books of course. but it does exist in the shows (the legend I mean) and plays a part in some people's decisions (Melisandre and Stannis for example).

Basically:

AA = Azor Ahai = the Prince that was promised to return and defeat darkness
NN = Nissa Nissa his love
LB = Lightbringer = the sword of AA that enables him to defeat darkness

The legend is that AA will come again - specifically from these ancient books of Asshai: "when the stars bleed and the cold winds blow, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. That sword will be Lightbringer. The one who draws it will be Azor Ahai reborn".

And the tale of how he forges the sword is that he first labored 30 days/nights and tempered it in water but it shattered. then he labored 50 days/nights and thrust it into the hear of a LION (ahem) but it shattered again. The third time after toiling 90 days/nights he summoned his wife Nissa Nissa and asked her to bare her breast and then plunged it into her heart - when he withdrew it he had created Lightbringer.


So many people relate this legend to various people - Melisandre in the show believed it was Stannis for example. Others think it will be Jamie - his gold hand somehow being forged as LB when he plunges it into Cersei his love. And others think it will be Jon - that he'll kill Tyrion maybe (Lion) and then have to kill Dany (his love) to forge it and kill the NK. Others think Dany is AA (the "prince" part is actually non specific to gender in Valyrian language as Missande pointed out) and that she kills the NK. As I proposed earlier I think maybe Jon himself is Lightbringer the "weapon" - born of Rhaegar who was AA and Lyanna who was Nissa Nissa (he plunged his "sword" wink-wink into her and she died when LB was created or Jon was born).

Like all prophecies and legends you can apply it to many things through your interpretation.

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I assume that:

1) GRRM told HBO who the AA and NN are
2) HBO won't change that
3) HBO will allude to parts of the prophesy that the viewers need to hear and leave out the rest

I've only seen the series once, and I don't remember the details about thrusting special swords into women. So either that is unimportant, or I just forgot. I do remember Missande correcting the translation for Dany about it being gender neutral. However, I think that might be a head fake. There is already so much pointing to the fact that she is deserving and powerful enough to win the throne, that there is no reason to add the prophecy part to drive it home. I think they are making us think Dany is gonna win just to surprise us that she is not.

They've definitely spent time on Stannis, Dany, Jon and others possibly being AA or the Prince that was promised.

all could be head fakes really - and maybe they are. Although it does not make a lot of sense to include it at all just as legend if it has no bearing. we'll see.

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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They've definitely spent time on Stannis, Dany, Jon and others possibly being AA or the Prince that was promised.

all could be head fakes really - and maybe they are. Although it does not make a lot of sense to include it at all just as legend if it has no bearing. we'll see.

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I'm not trying to say that the prophecies have no bearing. I do think that whatever happens will somehow satisfy the prophecies. My point is that I consider all the super detailed stuff that are in the books (but not the show) to be noise. That those that are highlighted within the show are almost certainly more important than those that are not. It would piss off viewers for the show to bank on details in the books that viewers have no knowledge of.

I'm gonna go curveball on my prediction.

NK kills Jon with Longclaw.
Arya flips her ****, pulls the sword from Jon creating Light Bringer.
Both Arya and NK die in the following confrontation.

I don't think HBO will spend 1 sec talking about Nissa Nissa. Also, once they had Missandei clarify it to be prince or princess I thought to myself "this prophesy is a nothing burger."

redline248 said:

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I don't think HBO will spend 1 sec talking about Nissa Nissa. Also, once they had Missandei clarify it to be prince or princess I thought to myself "this prophesy is a nothing burger."

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I agree.. I think the only reason to bring that up at all was to add more "evidence" that Dany is the "one".