his book 4 got way too long and his publishers asked him to cut it down. instead he just split it, but instead of splitting it based on "timeline", he split it based on characters. so books 4 and 5 are really Book 4, parts a & b.

Sine poena nulla lex.

No. GRRM specifically stated that books 4 and 5 were written separately but take place at the same time but focus on different characters. For example, book 4 doesn't have POV chapters from Jon or Dany (and I think Tyrion). Book 5 focuses mostly on Jon and Dany.

The bigger point was he packed a ton of characters and story arcs in books 4 and 5 that were nothing burgers and HBO didn't even include or only briefly touched on. He basically killed his chance at finishing the books by spending so much time on fluff that wasn't needed.

Pretty sure book 4 is all characters south of the wall. Book 5 is any character outside of that boundary (Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion, etc.)

Urban Ag said:

---

No. GRRM specifically stated that books 4 and 5 were written separately but take place at the same time but focus on different characters. For example, book 4 doesn't have POV chapters from Jon or Dany (and I think Tyrion). Book 5 focuses mostly on Jon and Dany.

The bigger point was he packed a ton of characters and story arcs in books 4 and 5 that were nothing burgers and HBO didn't even include or only briefly touched on. He basically killed his chance at finishing the books by spending so much time on fluff that wasn't needed.

---

Is that the first time he did that? That seems totally random if the other books were chronological and these two were in parallel. I can see how that annoyed the crap out of readers

Did Jon die and resurrect in the books? Or was that HBO only? To me that was a plot flaw.

Book 5 ended with Jon stabbed. We don't even know in the books if he's even dead (although seems VERY likely based on where he was stabbed). Was a big cliffhanger...until HBO blew past it.

Urban Ag said:

---

No. GRRM specifically stated that books 4 and 5 were written separately but take place at the same time but focus on different characters. For example, book 4 doesn't have POV chapters from Jon or Dany (and I think Tyrion). Book 5 focuses mostly on Jon and Dany.

The bigger point was he packed a ton of characters and story arcs in books 4 and 5 that were nothing burgers and HBO didn't even include or only briefly touched on. He basically killed his chance at finishing the books by spending so much time on fluff that wasn't needed.

---

they were not written separately - not most of it anyway. All of a Feast for Crows and half or more of a Dance with Dragons was in the initial manuscript for A Feast for Crows.

It was too cumbersome on first draft and he could not figure out how to split it chronologically - or more simply he just did not like that method. His editor and publishers suggested splitting it by POV characters. That allowed him to get A Feast For Crows out and add onto A Dance With Dragons with what he had not yet written.

GRRM's own words:

Quote:

---

About three weeks ago I hit 1527 pages of final draft, surpassing A STORM OF SWORDS... but I also had another hundred or so pages of roughs and incomplete chapters, as well as other chapters sketched out but entirely unwritten. That was when I realized that the light I'd seen at the end of the tunnel was actually the headlight of an onrushing locomotive.

And that's why my publishers and I, after much discussion and weighing of alternatives, have decided to split the narrative into two books (printing in microtype on onion skin paper and giving each reader a magnifying glass was not considered feasible, and I was reluctant to make the sort of deep cuts that would have been necessary to get the book down to a more publishable length, which I felt would have compromised the story).

The first plan was simply to lop the text in half. In that scenario, I would finish the last few chapters in as short a length (and time) as possible. That would have produced a story of maybe 1650 to 1700 pages in manuscript, which we would simply have broken into two chunks of roughly equal length and published as A FEAST FOR CROWS, Part One and A FEAST FOR CROWS, Part Two.

We decided not to do that. It was my feeling -- and I pushed hard for this, so if you don't like the solution, blame me, not my publishers -- that we were better off telling all the story for half the characters, rather than half the story for all the characters. Cutting the novel in half would have produced two half-novels; our approach will produce two novels taking place simultaneously, but set hundreds or even thousands of miles apart, and involving different casts of characters (with some overlap).

The division has been done, and it think it works quite well. The upshot is, A FEAST FOR CROWS is now moving into production. It is still a long book, but not too long; about the same size as A GAME OF THRONES. The focus in FEAST will be on Westeros, King's Landing, the riverlands, Dorne, and the Iron Islands. More than that I won't say.

Meanwhile, all the characters and stories removed from FEAST are moving right into A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, which will focus on events in the east and north. All the chapters I have not yet finished and/or begun are moving into DANCE. I think this is very good, if truth be told, since it will give me the room to complete those arcs as I had originally intended, rather than trying to tie them up quickly in a chapter or two so I could deliver the massively late Big FEAST.

So there it is. I know some of you may be disappointed, especially when you buy A FEAST FOR CROWS and discover that your favorite character does not appear, but given the realities I think this was the best solution... and the more I look at it, the more convinced I am that these two parallel novels, when taken together, will actually tell the story better than one big book.

And if there are those who don't agree, and still want their Big FEAST with all the trimmings set out on one huge table... well, there's an easy fix. Get both books, razor the pages out with an Exacto knife, interleave the chapters as you think best, and bring the towering stack of text that results to your favorite bookbinder... and presto, chango the Big FEAST will live again.

As for me, I am getting back to work. There's good news on that front too -- A DANCE WITH DRAGONS is half-done!!!

(And before anyone asks, yes indeed, this development means that Parris was right all along. It will now probably require seven books to complete the story).

---

Sine poena nulla lex.

C@LAg said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

Urban Ag said:

---

No. GRRM specifically stated that books 4 and 5 were written separately but take place at the same time but focus on different characters. For example, book 4 doesn't have POV chapters from Jon or Dany (and I think Tyrion). Book 5 focuses mostly on Jon and Dany.

The bigger point was he packed a ton of characters and story arcs in books 4 and 5 that were nothing burgers and HBO didn't even include or only briefly touched on. He basically killed his chance at finishing the books by spending so much time on fluff that wasn't needed.

---

Is that the first time he did that? That seems totally random if the other books were chronological and these two were in parallel. I can see how that annoyed the crap out of readers

---

he got ****ed up dealing with Dany being in Meereene, and it pretty much crashed the entire story, so he was writing all over the place trying to resolve the "Meereenese Knot".

so he wrote too much, including a lot of extra crap, and refuses to employ an actual editor, so we ended up with the garbage that is books 4 & 5.

---

Well, I googled Meereenese Knot at work. Shouldn't have done that.

aTmAg said:

---

C@LAg said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

Urban Ag said:

---

No. GRRM specifically stated that books 4 and 5 were written separately but take place at the same time but focus on different characters. For example, book 4 doesn't have POV chapters from Jon or Dany (and I think Tyrion). Book 5 focuses mostly on Jon and Dany.

The bigger point was he packed a ton of characters and story arcs in books 4 and 5 that were nothing burgers and HBO didn't even include or only briefly touched on. He basically killed his chance at finishing the books by spending so much time on fluff that wasn't needed.

---

Is that the first time he did that? That seems totally random if the other books were chronological and these two were in parallel. I can see how that annoyed the crap out of readers

---

he got ****ed up dealing with Dany being in Meereene, and it pretty much crashed the entire story, so he was writing all over the place trying to resolve the "Meereenese Knot".

so he wrote too much, including a lot of extra crap, and refuses to employ an actual editor, so we ended up with the garbage that is books 4 & 5.

---

Well, I googled Meereenese Knot at work. Shouldn't have done that.

---

They kind of break the fourth wall on the show by having Tyrion make a joke about the Meereenese Knot.

Sine poena nulla lex.

Apparently is is also a s3xual position.

Sine poena nulla lex.

canadiaggie said:

---

Some of Gurm's wonderful writing:

"The ship groaned and growled beneath him like a constipated fat man straining to *****" Tyrion IX, ADWD

"Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was ****ting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water." some Daenerys chapter ADWD

"She was sopping wet when he entered her. "Damn you," she said. "Damn you damn you damn you." He sucked her nipples till she cried out half in pain and half in pleasure. Her **** became the world."

---

I instantly thought of this

Another huge issue that lead to delays (and many of the issues with books 4 & 5) is that he originally planned to jump forward in time 5-6 years after Book 3. He spent a year writing it this way, but it required too much exposition, usage of flashbacks, etc.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/What_happened_to_the_five_year_gap_that_was_supposed_to_follow_ASoS/

Also, I have to comment on how funny it is that we can talk for several pages about him being a genius with his subtle hints and careful usage of words that have meaning that we may not realize for hundreds or thousands of pages, and then talk for several pages about how he has no idea what he is doing and his written himself into a mess that he can't escape from.

C@LAg said:

---

I considered a great writer for 3 books, where he had a plan and story plotted out. since book 3, he has degenerated to almost fan-fiction level of writing.

---

This.

Exhibit A: Lady Stoneheart.

C@LAg said:

---

I considered a great writer for 3 books, where he had a plan and story plotted out. since book 3, he has degenerated to almost fan-fiction level of writing.

---

I am still a big fan of books 4 and 5 but I agree with this for the most part. I think he got high on his own supply and just blew the GOT universe out not every really thinking he couldn't reel it all back in. Without the HBO series, he probably would have / could have. But the more worldwide attention the series was getting, killed any chance the books get finished.

This will be the most watched watched episode in the history of cable is my prediction.

Take away broadcast

books 4 and 5 are horrible. He had a 3 book arch then he got greedy and went off script. And it shows. It is going to take screen writers to bring his story some sort of conclusion.

Those first 3 books are some of the best fantasy literature i have ever read, he just couldn't maintain it.

Sine poena nulla lex.

We're so close yet so far

And when he doesn't wink.

ja86 said:

---

books 4 and 5 are horrible. He had a 3 book arch then he got greedy and went off script. And it shows. It is going to take screen writers to bring his story some sort of conclusion.

Those first 3 books are some of the best fantasy literature i have ever read, he just couldn't maintain it.

---

Have you read the alternate chapter sequence with both books? It made the books much better for me.

I think the publisher could make money by using that sequence and re-issuing as two new books. GRRM will never allow it but it would help I think. That process of reading an entire (fairly long) book without a bunch of characters is just odd and I think damaged the perception of the books.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

---

---

Sam lost weight...Gilly, not so much.

CapCityAg89 said:

---

ja86 said:

---

books 4 and 5 are horrible. He had a 3 book arch then he got greedy and went off script. And it shows. It is going to take screen writers to bring his story some sort of conclusion.

Those first 3 books are some of the best fantasy literature i have ever read, he just couldn't maintain it.

---

Have you read the alternate chapter sequence with both books? It made the books much better for me.

I think the publisher could make money by using that sequence and re-issuing as two new books. GRRM will never allow it but it would help I think. That process of reading an entire (fairly long) book without a bunch of characters is just odd and I think damaged the perception of the books.

---

that is a good suggestion, i will give it a go and see.