****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

1,051,652 Views | 14590 Replies | Last: 29 days ago by Brian Earl Spilner
10Aggie10
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his book 4 got way too long and his publishers asked him to cut it down. instead he just split it, but instead of splitting it based on "timeline", he split it based on characters. so books 4 and 5 are really Book 4, parts a & b.
Brian Earl Spilner
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redline248 said:

Brian Earl Spilner said:

The show automatically wins due to real-life bewbs.
No Arianne Martell loses 100 points for house D&B (to keep with my Harry Potter theme)
But Sand Snake boobs.
C@LAg
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canadiaggie said:

Some of Gurm's wonderful writing:

"The ship groaned and growled beneath him like a constipated fat man straining to *****" Tyrion IX, ADWD

"Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was ****ting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water." some Daenerys chapter ADWD

"She was sopping wet when he entered her. "Damn you," she said. "Damn you damn you damn you." He sucked her nipples till she cried out half in pain and half in pleasure. Her **** became the world."


Urban Ag
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No. GRRM specifically stated that books 4 and 5 were written separately but take place at the same time but focus on different characters. For example, book 4 doesn't have POV chapters from Jon or Dany (and I think Tyrion). Book 5 focuses mostly on Jon and Dany.

The bigger point was he packed a ton of characters and story arcs in books 4 and 5 that were nothing burgers and HBO didn't even include or only briefly touched on. He basically killed his chance at finishing the books by spending so much time on fluff that wasn't needed.
Whatever it takes
Champ Bailey
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Pretty sure book 4 is all characters south of the wall. Book 5 is any character outside of that boundary (Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion, etc.)
aTmAg
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Urban Ag said:

No. GRRM specifically stated that books 4 and 5 were written separately but take place at the same time but focus on different characters. For example, book 4 doesn't have POV chapters from Jon or Dany (and I think Tyrion). Book 5 focuses mostly on Jon and Dany.

The bigger point was he packed a ton of characters and story arcs in books 4 and 5 that were nothing burgers and HBO didn't even include or only briefly touched on. He basically killed his chance at finishing the books by spending so much time on fluff that wasn't needed.
Is that the first time he did that? That seems totally random if the other books were chronological and these two were in parallel. I can see how that annoyed the crap out of readers
aTmAg
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Did Jon die and resurrect in the books? Or was that HBO only? To me that was a plot flaw.
C@LAg
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aTmAg said:

Did Jon die and resurrect in the books? Or was that HBO only? To me that was a plot flaw.
not resolved. that is where 5 ends. it is expected to be similar.
jenn96
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Book 5 ended with Jon stabbed. We don't even know in the books if he's even dead (although seems VERY likely based on where he was stabbed). Was a big cliffhanger...until HBO blew past it.
Zombie Jon Snow
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Urban Ag said:

No. GRRM specifically stated that books 4 and 5 were written separately but take place at the same time but focus on different characters. For example, book 4 doesn't have POV chapters from Jon or Dany (and I think Tyrion). Book 5 focuses mostly on Jon and Dany.

The bigger point was he packed a ton of characters and story arcs in books 4 and 5 that were nothing burgers and HBO didn't even include or only briefly touched on. He basically killed his chance at finishing the books by spending so much time on fluff that wasn't needed.

they were not written separately - not most of it anyway. All of a Feast for Crows and half or more of a Dance with Dragons was in the initial manuscript for A Feast for Crows.

It was too cumbersome on first draft and he could not figure out how to split it chronologically - or more simply he just did not like that method. His editor and publishers suggested splitting it by POV characters. That allowed him to get A Feast For Crows out and add onto A Dance With Dragons with what he had not yet written.

GRRM's own words:


Quote:

About three weeks ago I hit 1527 pages of final draft, surpassing A STORM OF SWORDS... but I also had another hundred or so pages of roughs and incomplete chapters, as well as other chapters sketched out but entirely unwritten. That was when I realized that the light I'd seen at the end of the tunnel was actually the headlight of an onrushing locomotive.

And that's why my publishers and I, after much discussion and weighing of alternatives, have decided to split the narrative into two books (printing in microtype on onion skin paper and giving each reader a magnifying glass was not considered feasible, and I was reluctant to make the sort of deep cuts that would have been necessary to get the book down to a more publishable length, which I felt would have compromised the story).

The first plan was simply to lop the text in half. In that scenario, I would finish the last few chapters in as short a length (and time) as possible. That would have produced a story of maybe 1650 to 1700 pages in manuscript, which we would simply have broken into two chunks of roughly equal length and published as A FEAST FOR CROWS, Part One and A FEAST FOR CROWS, Part Two.

We decided not to do that. It was my feeling -- and I pushed hard for this, so if you don't like the solution, blame me, not my publishers -- that we were better off telling all the story for half the characters, rather than half the story for all the characters. Cutting the novel in half would have produced two half-novels; our approach will produce two novels taking place simultaneously, but set hundreds or even thousands of miles apart, and involving different casts of characters (with some overlap).

The division has been done, and it think it works quite well. The upshot is, A FEAST FOR CROWS is now moving into production. It is still a long book, but not too long; about the same size as A GAME OF THRONES. The focus in FEAST will be on Westeros, King's Landing, the riverlands, Dorne, and the Iron Islands. More than that I won't say.

Meanwhile, all the characters and stories removed from FEAST are moving right into A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, which will focus on events in the east and north. All the chapters I have not yet finished and/or begun are moving into DANCE. I think this is very good, if truth be told, since it will give me the room to complete those arcs as I had originally intended, rather than trying to tie them up quickly in a chapter or two so I could deliver the massively late Big FEAST.

So there it is. I know some of you may be disappointed, especially when you buy A FEAST FOR CROWS and discover that your favorite character does not appear, but given the realities I think this was the best solution... and the more I look at it, the more convinced I am that these two parallel novels, when taken together, will actually tell the story better than one big book.

And if there are those who don't agree, and still want their Big FEAST with all the trimmings set out on one huge table... well, there's an easy fix. Get both books, razor the pages out with an Exacto knife, interleave the chapters as you think best, and bring the towering stack of text that results to your favorite bookbinder... and presto, chango the Big FEAST will live again.

As for me, I am getting back to work. There's good news on that front too -- A DANCE WITH DRAGONS is half-done!!!

(And before anyone asks, yes indeed, this development means that Parris was right all along. It will now probably require seven books to complete the story).
aTmAg
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Oh... wow. No wonder GRRM stopped there. He's stuck at "how the hell am I going to write myself out of this one?"
C@LAg
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aTmAg said:

Urban Ag said:

No. GRRM specifically stated that books 4 and 5 were written separately but take place at the same time but focus on different characters. For example, book 4 doesn't have POV chapters from Jon or Dany (and I think Tyrion). Book 5 focuses mostly on Jon and Dany.

The bigger point was he packed a ton of characters and story arcs in books 4 and 5 that were nothing burgers and HBO didn't even include or only briefly touched on. He basically killed his chance at finishing the books by spending so much time on fluff that wasn't needed.
Is that the first time he did that? That seems totally random if the other books were chronological and these two were in parallel. I can see how that annoyed the crap out of readers
he got ****ed up dealing with Dany being in Meereene, and it pretty much crashed the entire story, so he was writing all over the place trying to resolve the "Meereenese Knot".

so he wrote too much, including a lot of extra crap, and refuses to employ an actual editor, so we ended up with the garbage that is books 4 & 5.
aTmAg
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C@LAg said:

aTmAg said:

Urban Ag said:

No. GRRM specifically stated that books 4 and 5 were written separately but take place at the same time but focus on different characters. For example, book 4 doesn't have POV chapters from Jon or Dany (and I think Tyrion). Book 5 focuses mostly on Jon and Dany.

The bigger point was he packed a ton of characters and story arcs in books 4 and 5 that were nothing burgers and HBO didn't even include or only briefly touched on. He basically killed his chance at finishing the books by spending so much time on fluff that wasn't needed.
Is that the first time he did that? That seems totally random if the other books were chronological and these two were in parallel. I can see how that annoyed the crap out of readers
he got ****ed up dealing with Dany being in Meereene, and it pretty much crashed the entire story, so he was writing all over the place trying to resolve the "Meereenese Knot".

so he wrote too much, including a lot of extra crap, and refuses to employ an actual editor, so we ended up with the garbage that is books 4 & 5.
Well, I googled Meereenese Knot at work. Shouldn't have done that.
Counterpoint
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aTmAg said:

C@LAg said:

aTmAg said:

Urban Ag said:

No. GRRM specifically stated that books 4 and 5 were written separately but take place at the same time but focus on different characters. For example, book 4 doesn't have POV chapters from Jon or Dany (and I think Tyrion). Book 5 focuses mostly on Jon and Dany.

The bigger point was he packed a ton of characters and story arcs in books 4 and 5 that were nothing burgers and HBO didn't even include or only briefly touched on. He basically killed his chance at finishing the books by spending so much time on fluff that wasn't needed.
Is that the first time he did that? That seems totally random if the other books were chronological and these two were in parallel. I can see how that annoyed the crap out of readers
he got ****ed up dealing with Dany being in Meereene, and it pretty much crashed the entire story, so he was writing all over the place trying to resolve the "Meereenese Knot".

so he wrote too much, including a lot of extra crap, and refuses to employ an actual editor, so we ended up with the garbage that is books 4 & 5.
Well, I googled Meereenese Knot at work. Shouldn't have done that.



They kind of break the fourth wall on the show by having Tyrion make a joke about the Meereenese Knot.
C@LAg
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aTmAg said:


Well, I googled Meereenese Knot at work. Shouldn't have done that.

This version of the MK.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Meereenese_knot

The Meereenese knot refers to the plotline in Meereen in A Dance with Dragons which George R.R. Martin took some time to sort out, as several of the storylines and characters converge in Meereen. Martin attributed the delay mainly to his untangling "the Meereenese knot", which the interviewer understood as "making the chronology and characters mesh up as various threads converged on Daenerys".[url=https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Meereenese_knot#cite_note-1][1][/url] According to GRRM,
Quote:

Now I can explain things. It was a confluence of many, many factors: lets start with the offer from Xaro to give Dany ships, the refusal of which then leads to Qarth's declaration of war. Then there's the marriage of Daenerys to pacify the city. Then there's the arrival of the Yunkish army at the gates of Meereen, there's the order of arrival of various people going her way (Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion, Aegon, Marwyn, etc.), and then there's Daario, this dangerous sellsword and the question of whether Dany really wants him or not, there's the plague, there's Drogon's return to Meereen... All of these things were balls I had thrown up into the air, and they're all linked and chronologically entwined. The return of Drogon to the city was something I explored as happening at different times. For example, I wrote three different versions of Quentyn's arrival at Meereen: one where he arrived long before Dany's marriage, one where he arrived much later, and one where he arrived just the day before the marriage (which is how it ended up being in the novel). And I had to write all three versions to be able to compare and see how these different arrival points affected the stories of the other characters. Including the story of a character who actually hasn't arrived yet. [url=https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Meereenese_knot#cite_note-2][2][/url]

He was trying to align story and plot points chronologically, and having issues with time jumps and other things.

It is referred to as the MK among fans.
aTmAg
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Apparently is is also a s3xual position.
C@LAg
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aTmAg said:

Apparently is is also a s3xual position.
yeah, that is a TV addition/joke and knot (ha!) in the books.
BenFiasco14
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canadiaggie said:

Some of Gurm's wonderful writing:

"The ship groaned and growled beneath him like a constipated fat man straining to *****" Tyrion IX, ADWD

"Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was ****ting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water." some Daenerys chapter ADWD

"She was sopping wet when he entered her. "Damn you," she said. "Damn you damn you damn you." He sucked her nipples till she cried out half in pain and half in pleasure. Her **** became the world."

I instantly thought of this

CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
The Dog Lord
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Another huge issue that lead to delays (and many of the issues with books 4 & 5) is that he originally planned to jump forward in time 5-6 years after Book 3. He spent a year writing it this way, but it required too much exposition, usage of flashbacks, etc.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/What_happened_to_the_five_year_gap_that_was_supposed_to_follow_ASoS/

Also, I have to comment on how funny it is that we can talk for several pages about him being a genius with his subtle hints and careful usage of words that have meaning that we may not realize for hundreds or thousands of pages, and then talk for several pages about how he has no idea what he is doing and his written himself into a mess that he can't escape from.
C@LAg
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I considered a great writer for 3 books, where he had a plan and story plotted out. since book 3, he has degenerated to almost fan-fiction level of writing.
Ol Jock 99
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C@LAg said:

I considered a great writer for 3 books, where he had a plan and story plotted out. since book 3, he has degenerated to almost fan-fiction level of writing.
This.

Exhibit A: Lady Stoneheart.
Brian Earl Spilner
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gigemJTH12
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I'm watching the show for the first time right now and I just finished S5/E8.

Jon and the Wildlings vs the Dead and Walkers.

HOLY ***** Sorry to interrupt. Just had to post and tell people bc I'm geeking out right now and my thrones chatting buddy is asleep.

See y'all next week!
Brian Earl Spilner
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Urban Ag
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C@LAg said:

I considered a great writer for 3 books, where he had a plan and story plotted out. since book 3, he has degenerated to almost fan-fiction level of writing.
I am still a big fan of books 4 and 5 but I agree with this for the most part. I think he got high on his own supply and just blew the GOT universe out not every really thinking he couldn't reel it all back in. Without the HBO series, he probably would have / could have. But the more worldwide attention the series was getting, killed any chance the books get finished.
Whatever it takes
The D
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This will be the most watched watched episode in the history of cable is my prediction.

Take away broadcast
ja86
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books 4 and 5 are horrible. He had a 3 book arch then he got greedy and went off script. And it shows. It is going to take screen writers to bring his story some sort of conclusion.

Those first 3 books are some of the best fantasy literature i have ever read, he just couldn't maintain it.
C@LAg
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Brian Earl Spilner said:


he's a dork. he comes off so much more cooler the less he says.
G Martin 87
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Harrumph. No lemon cakes for ANY of you ungrateful cretins. Truth be told, I prefer lamprey pie anyway.
Luke Smith
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We're so close yet so far
Brian Earl Spilner
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And when he doesn't wink.
CapCityAg89
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ja86 said:

books 4 and 5 are horrible. He had a 3 book arch then he got greedy and went off script. And it shows. It is going to take screen writers to bring his story some sort of conclusion.

Those first 3 books are some of the best fantasy literature i have ever read, he just couldn't maintain it.

Have you read the alternate chapter sequence with both books? It made the books much better for me.

I think the publisher could make money by using that sequence and re-issuing as two new books. GRRM will never allow it but it would help I think. That process of reading an entire (fairly long) book without a bunch of characters is just odd and I think damaged the perception of the books.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Prosperdick
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Brian Earl Spilner said:






Sam lost weight...Gilly, not so much.
ja86
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CapCityAg89 said:

ja86 said:

books 4 and 5 are horrible. He had a 3 book arch then he got greedy and went off script. And it shows. It is going to take screen writers to bring his story some sort of conclusion.

Those first 3 books are some of the best fantasy literature i have ever read, he just couldn't maintain it.

Have you read the alternate chapter sequence with both books? It made the books much better for me.

I think the publisher could make money by using that sequence and re-issuing as two new books. GRRM will never allow it but it would help I think. That process of reading an entire (fairly long) book without a bunch of characters is just odd and I think damaged the perception of the books.
that is a good suggestion, i will give it a go and see.
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